New Augment: Airburst Rounds

[Traumtulpe]

I was excited for this mod, unfortunately in vain. The issue is as follows:

Zephyr has not need for strength at all. Thus you should expect Zephyr to have 40% power strength. This makes the augment give 10% base damage per target hit, not stacking.

Why is this bad? Simple:

1. Your weapon already has 620% base damage from other sources.
2. The bonus damage is limited by the amount of enemies in range at any given time. Usually <10 when not on the Steel Path.

In other words, the realistic expectation is a <16% damage increase in relative terms.

Sure, you could change the mods used on Zephyr for the sole purpose of making this augment reach it's cap of 500% bonus base damage. And there are more enemies on the Steel Path, to the point that you may reach this cap with neutral strength. But even taking all this into account, the mod is underwhelming: Increasing your damage by a mere 80%, while forcing to to make significant sacrifices to your build, and requiring the use of unpopular weapons (there is a reason these aren't used much).

Suggested changes: 10% multiplicative damage increase per enemy hit (capped at 200%), stacking with repeated casts.

In practice, this mod is... barely usable, but really doesn't make any difference. It certainly doesn't make secondary weapons any more desirable. How, you ask? I ran a Steel Path survival using this mod: Normal enemies died just as easily as before using correct elements, the Acolyte however took way too long to kill, mostly due to his semi status immunity. For reference, he dies in 2 hits from my melee weapon.

So why jump through all the hoops, change all these mods, max an otherwise unused weapon, and then still melee the Acolyte? It's just not worth bothering.

[Leqesai]

I was thinking the same thing. Buffind sidearm damage isn't a bad thing but for the price of an augment slot it is not a very significant improvement. Especially since you're right. Zephyr is not necessarily a high power strength frame. 

I assumed that it was stacking because not being a stacking buff is really not worth the mod slot it takes up. Zephyr already has passive boosts to damage while in the Air that are much more powerful than this augment...

[Famecans]

24 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Suggested changes: 10% multiplicative damage increase per enemy hit (capped at 200%), stacking with repeated casts.

solid combo system, hitting different targets to increase the x modifier. I like it.

offtopic: those mods that activate the modifier after killing a target have serious functional problems, all of which should have the activation mechanics after hitting different enemies like a new weapon combo system. *the same target can be hit again after x seconds and this will keep the combo active... it would also be nice to have a secondary modifier to reduce the time that this same target can be hited and counted again,

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

38 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Your weapon already has 620% base damage from other sources.

Only if you’re using Arcane Precision. Might as well say (insert +damage Arcane) is bad because Vex Armor has a much higher buff.

38 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Zephyr has not need for strength at all. Thus you should expect Zephyr to have 40% power strength. This makes the augment give 10% base damage per target hit, not stacking.

Sounds like you found a reason to use strength. Plus Jetstream needs strength.

39 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

But even taking all this into account, the mod is underwhelming: Increasing your damage by a mere 80%, while forcing to to make significant sacrifices to your build, and requiring the use of unpopular weapons (there is a reason these aren't used much).

Still assuming the use of Arcane Precision I see. You can use it as a slot replacer for Hornet strike to fit another mod on your secondary. Also how are secondary weapons unpopular. Last I checked Kuva Nukor topped the usage charts.

41 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

So why jump through all the hoops, change all these mods, max an otherwise unused weapon, and then still melee the Acolyte? It's just not worth bothering.

So your issue isn’t with damage buffs but that melee is better? This post feels all over the place.

[Traumtulpe]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Only if you’re using Arcane Precision. Might as well say (insert +damage Arcane) is bad because Vex Armor has a much higher buff.

Sounds like you found a reason to use strength. Plus Jetstream needs strength.

Still assuming the use of Arcane Precision I see. You can use it as a slot replacer for Hornet strike to fit another mod on your secondary. Also how are secondary weapons unpopular. Last I checked Kuva Nukor topped the usage charts.

So your issue isn’t with damage buffs but that melee is better? This post feels all over the place.

Of course you don't use Arcane Precision on Chroma. Yes, Vex Armor makes it bad.

No, there is no reason to use strength. The augment itself is already a questionable addition to your build, a strength mod is even less valuable.

People don't kill things with the Nukor. They debuff enemies with it. And then kill them in melee.

My issue is that I used everything I could, including Arcanes and this augment, to make my secondary as strong as possible, yet using it was still a waste of time compared to a melee without Arcanes at base combo.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Zephyr has not need for strength at all. Thus you should expect Zephyr to have 40% power strength. This makes the augment give 10% base damage per target hit, not stacking.

Is this consensus between Zephyr players?

I have ~150% but those builds are from time when I used Tailwind. I've tried it on Requiem Exterminate and I was able to get ~260% (maybe more sometimes). So I don't see gaining % big problem. I've not tested it on Tornadoes yet. Some kitgun + Breach Surge + Wall latching mod (+120 chance crit/status) => and it's pretty nice (I bet my kitgun has standard viral/heat or maybe even radiation mods so it's not that strong).

ps. Your millage may vary.

 

However it has other problems:

- if you inverted tap/hold (tap for stationary Tornadoes and tap for Hover) then you have tap-Airburst that moves enemies from the point of impact. You need to hold... which takes some time.

- both version rag doll enemies so it's hard to do headshots just after you Airbursted them

This may or may not applies to you.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

45 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Of course you don't use Arcane Precision on Chroma. Yes, Vex Armor makes it bad.

So why are you using it with Zephyr’s augment then? It makes Precision “bad”

46 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, there is no reason to use strength. The augment itself is already a questionable addition to your build, a strength mod is even less valuable.

Jet stream builds already want strength. This augment want around neutral strength. Ergo there is a reason to use strength.

48 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

People don't kill things with the Nukor. They debuff enemies with it. And then kill them in melee.

Speak for yourself. My Kuva Nukor kills stuff extremely well even on SP.

50 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

My issue is that I used everything I could, including Arcanes and this augment, to make my secondary as strong as possible, yet using it was still a waste of time compared to a melee without Arcanes at base combo.

You’re conflating two issues. One being that melee is stronger, which is separate from the damage buff on Zephyr’s augment.

[AlphaPHENIX]

53 minutes ago, quxier said:

Is this consensus between Zephyr players?

Well no, but actually yesn't. It's an exageration of a point we agree on.

There aren't strictly zero reasons for power strenght on Zephyr; as mentioned above - Jetsream builds... And ummm, well...killing stuff with Dive Bomb is finally possible, so I guess there is that. I have a feeling there was something with strenght and Funnel Clouds, but I am not sure.

In general, not a lot of use for it; but a fast Jetsream is nice.

[Traumtulpe]

47 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Speak for yourself. My Kuva Nukor kills stuff extremely well even on SP.

Prove your words: Record yourself killing an Acolyte with your Nukor. And feel free to use Airburst Rounds, of course. I'll be waiting.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

4 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Prove your words: Record yourself killing an Acolyte with your Nukor. And feel free to use Airburst Rounds, of course. I'll be waiting.

You'll be waiting for a month or so for Airburst Rounds, but sure, I'll give my Knukor a swing against acolytes later and get a video .

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I'll give my Knukor a swing against acolytes later and get a video .

Thanks, looking forward to it. Shame about the Mod not being available to you.

[Squick]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Prove your words: Record yourself killing an Acolyte with your Nukor. And feel free to use Airburst Rounds, of course. I'll be waiting.

I don't have an airburst build ready to go, but I do have a fairly low roll kuva nukor that absolutely murders stuff in steel path.

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, Squick said:

I do have a fairly low roll kuva nukor that absolutely murders stuff in steel path.

That's great, looking forward to all those videos of Nukors shredding Acolytes.

[Wolfchild07]

I don't even use airburst, that's my subsume slot. This augment isn't gonna make me wanna use it. I have way more fun with abilities like barrage, yes, barrage + tornados. So much weather! Even well of life is good, since Hieracon is my favourite node to play on and it's nice having a way to heal excavs. I do other missions of course, but Hieracon is my playground. Of course, I have a build with vial rush, cause she can hover in the air and use it, making her an ice bomber. I haven't bothered to farm a second Protea yet, but dispensary is gonna be way more valuable on Zephyr with a high powered weapon like death-from-above bramma, with the ammo and energy restocks. The new augment mod is terrible from my point of view.

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Zephyr has not need for strength at all. Thus you should expect Zephyr to have 40% power strength

11 hours ago, quxier said:

Is this consensus between Zephyr players?

No, it definitely isn't.

I also use a decent amount of Strength in my builds, I never go into negatives for this one specific reason; her Augments.

Zephyr does not need Strength to function at base. That's true.

Zephyr's Augments are built for Strength, with Jet Stream giving both a fantastic movement speed boost on top of the massive boost to damage-fall-off weapons like shotguns (or projectiles like the Kuva Chakkhur), while Target Fixation is now a legitimate scaling option for Dive Bomb thanks to the new high base damage that Dive Bomb has. Even Funnel Clouds benefits a little, because the tiny-nados help with that damage spreading via status (like Electric) and will boost those combos with higher base damage even if Strength doesn't affect Crit damage.

I was absolutely expecting this new Augment to be a Strength based augment, and when I pick it up later today I'm going to give that a try.

Side note; I'm also going to try giving Airburst to a frame that already functions well with Strength, because damage boosting on sidearms can be pretty useful on some frames that have dead abilities.

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Side note; I'm also going to try giving Airburst to a frame that already functions well with Strength, because damage boosting on sidearms can be pretty useful on some frames that have dead abilities.

I'll save you some time: It doesn't work on Mesa. Like a bunch of other abilities.

It's true that you can make some niche builds using her augments and some strength, Jet Stream+Stropha+Gladiator mods is quite fun. But without augments, which are niche, you totally should use Overextended. Strength has no meaningful impact on any of her base abilites, while range sure does.

[Steve_K]

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I also use a decent amount of Strength in my builds, I never go into negatives for this one specific reason; her Augments.

I completely agree.  There are some reasons to add STR to Zephyr to play with her augments, even if many builds don't.  Sometimes augments require some adjustments to get good use out of them, this wouldn't be the first time. 

If you love Zephyr with max range and low strength, and you can't bear the adjustment into mitigating the negative power strength, then that makes perfect sense and perhaps her augments aren't for you; however this augment is no surprise for those of us who already use strength to experiment with the other augments.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Side note; I'm also going to try giving Airburst to a frame that already functions well with Strength, because damage boosting on sidearms can be pretty useful on some frames that have dead abilities.

This is also a fantastic point.  This is Zephyr's helminth ability!  Half the point of this mod is for its accessibility on OTHER frames, where it might slot right in naturally.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

14 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Thanks, looking forward to it. Shame about the Mod not being available to you.

So let's lay down some basic facts about Acolytes first:

• They're immune to viral procs
• They have scaling DR
• They have proc caps

The third point in particular is very important, as it neuters one of Kuva Nukor's greatest strengths: Its extreme status output.
So using them as a benchmark isn't really good as they innately favor weapons that have extreme single hit damage. With that said, here's Kuva Nukor vs SP Selkie Acolytes. I've used Arcane Precision in all to approximate Airburst Rounds. I refrained from using any frame buffs, though normally I have Xata's Whisper infused when I wanna do non-slash gun DPS.

 

Normal mobs melt, while it takes a bit to kill the Acolyte due to the reason's mentioned earlier. But my original point was that

15 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

My Kuva Nukor kills stuff extremely well even on SP.

Not that it vaporized Acolytes. And you can see that even when I'm focusing on the Acolyte, the chains are doing very well against normal mobs.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I'll save you some time: It doesn't work on Mesa. Like a bunch of other abilities.

I fully expected it not to, 500% damage on there is just oil on a fire.

It'll work on frames that need a little CC, though, or other frames that rely on their weapons for main damage like Loki (to combine with a Glaive), and it does work on Hildryn, with those massive damage blasts.

It could be really good with other frames that have existing damage-boosting functions, like Mirage, for pushing even further beyond, too... there's plenty of possibilities ^^

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So let's lay down some basic facts about Acolytes first:

• They're immune to viral procs
• They have scaling DR
• They have proc caps

Exactly. And because of this, secondaries just aren't effective against them. An 80% damage increase (relative) under perfect conditions cannot change this.

The Catabolyst performs similar to the Nukor. You can see the difference between attacking the Acolyte with a 260% Airburst Rounds buff and without - there is none. Why build for a secondary weapon and shoot the Acolyte for 50 seconds, when a melee weapon disposes of him in 2 hits? It kills everything else in one hit as well, by the way. With no investment of mods or Arcanes on the Warframe either.

The point is, this augment makes no noticable difference. If you were using a secondary in the first place, good, slap it on there. But it is definitely not a reason to use a secondary, and most people don't.

[Proscriptor]

multiplicative increase seems like the right idea

[Authoritycat]

Does it work with Titania Dex Pixia? Someone above mentioned it doesn't work on Mesa so I'm guessing the answer is no. 

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Authoritycat said:

Does it work with Titania Dex Pixia? Someone above mentioned it doesn't work on Mesa so I'm guessing the answer is no. 

Mesa is a special case, I bet it does work on Titania. I also bet it is not worth using on Titania.

[Traumtulpe]

Another video; Yes you can defeat Acolytes reasonably effective with a secondary. Still worse than other options, but acceptable. Like I said, If you were using a sidearm in the first place, might as well chuck this mod on.

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You can see the difference between attacking the Acolyte with a 260% Airburst Rounds buff and without - there is none. Why build for a secondary weapon and shoot the Acolyte for 50 seconds, when a melee weapon disposes of him in 2 hits? It kills everything else in one hit as well, by the way. With no investment of mods or Arcanes on the Warframe either.

The point is, this augment makes no noticable difference. If you were using a secondary in the first place, good, slap it on there. But it is definitely not a reason to use a secondary, and most people don't.

Again, you're conflating issues. You've chosen a benchmark that is weighted against most guns by design, and then complain that they can't keep up with melee. That is an entirely separate issue from whether or not Airburst Rounds is good.