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Is Frost just outdated?


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In any case, it reminds me of the argument that Titania is fine because she sets well on the plague star. Which we haven't seen in a long time. And which is farmed by any other frames with Damage buff and archgun) Be needed in one place != be good. 

Frames like Visp are needed everywhere. Frames like Nidus can at least be useful for the team in all situations. All nuck frames are useful, because the game is focused on it. Defense is not a good advantage in this game, because everyone has it anyway, and because it doesn't give the team anything when it's not about defense. (Which can be passed in most cases without Frost, because the dead don't shoot).Therefore, if the frame is niche and boring, it is in a bad place, no matter how good it is in one thing. Again, this doesn't apply to Nuck, because nuck is used everywhere in the game.

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

If anything, Mesa dont care about Limbo rift. That's why there were 2 of them. Our space build was: Limbo, 2 Mesa, Nova. The level of mobs is limited, so there is no reason to take a banshee if the damage is enough.

I know but Frost, banshee(or nova) could shot at the enemys outside the bubble, especially at that annoying flying aeroguy who was immune to peacemakers

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Posted (edited)

The irony is, Frost isn't great for Defense specifically because his abilities are focused on keeping stationary objectives alive. And Defense is actually more of a slow-moving Horde mode. Which takes a million years if you wait for the AI pathfinding instead of running enemies down in their corridors, or behind whatever they got stuck on, and eliminating them to send the next wave.

Frost is, however, the king of soloing Steel Path Interception. Since it actually works on a timer, and Mr. Freeze can lock down the map really well. Changing the Defense mission type to be on a timer, we could get into some pros & cons, but it would put Frost to better use. 

Edited by ZokuGojira
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1 minute ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

I know but Frost, banshee(or nova) could shot at the enemys outside the bubble, especially at that annoying flying aeroguy who was immune to peacemakers

I don't deny it. I'm just saying there's another combination. Frost isn't the only thing for this. People were also playing with Gara. 

As for aeroguy, operators are invulnerable to rift, so there's no problem with that. Just knock down the flasks and it becomes vulnerable.

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On 2021-06-08 at 3:31 PM, ZokuGojira said:

The irony is, Frost isn't great for Defense specifically because his abilities are focused on keeping stationary objectives alive. And Defense is actually more of a slow-moving Horde mode. Which takes a million years if you wait for the AI pathfinding instead of running enemies down in their corridors, or behind whatever they got stuck on, and eliminating them to send the next wave.

Changing the Defense mission type to be on a timer would be a massive quality of life improvement, and benefit this frame as well.

So true especially the "deadlock" corpusship Defense/Interception map. 

That map is bullying the bulletjump.

On 2021-06-08 at 3:31 PM, ZokuGojira said:

Frost is, however, the king of soloing Steel Path Interception. Since it actually does work on a timer, and Mr. Freeze can lock down the map really well.

Nyx or nova are least equally good

On 2021-06-08 at 3:41 PM, selig_fay said:

I don't deny it. I'm just saying there's another combination. Frost isn't the only thing for this. People were also playing with Gara. 

As for aeroguy, operators are invulnerable to rift, so there's no problem with that. Just knock down the flasks and it becomes vulnerable.

True you can use what you want, but the question is what are the pros& contras

Limbo is safer true, but with frost the 2players who don't play Mesa can actively help to kill more enemy (more intrinsic)and generally the dmg output of warframes are greater than operators. 

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8 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:
20 minutes ago, ZokuGojira said:

Frost is, however, the king of soloing Steel Path Interception. Since it actually does work on a timer, and Mr. Freeze can lock down the map really well.

Nyx or nova are least equally good

Vauban can do some work with strategically placed Vortexes as well. One can argue who solo cheeses SP Int the best, but there's without a doubt multiple alternatives.

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1 minute ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

True, but instead of vauban you can use Zephyr. Her Tornados are more or less a better vortex, she is more mobile and her 2 makes invincible. 

On the other hand, Vauban's Vortexes are only limited by duration, whereas Zephyr's Tornados all spawn in the same place. Compared to Frost, Vauban can have more Vortexes and can place them at a distance - they also trap enemies better than Globe and for a longer duration than Avalanche.

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Sounds like Frost is outdated. Does he need a rework?

Answer: Yes.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

dmg output of warframes are greater than operators. 

Damage doesn't matter when it comes to flasks. They are killed with the help of the operator. Next, it gets a oneshot and no longer bothers for a long time. From 1 second without Rift, nothing ever happened.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

Damage doesn't matter when it comes to flasks. They are killed with the help of the operator. Next, it gets a oneshot and no longer bothers for a long time. From 1 second without Rift, nothing ever happened.

Like i said, it was possible with Limbo but the intrinsic loot was better with Frost. We placed 2 bubbles for the two mesas at good shooting points and 1 bubble for the Defense target. With that we could cover the whole map. 

With Limbo you had only one bubble. 

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1 minute ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Like i said, it was possible with Limbo but the intrinsic loot was better with Frost. We placed 2 bubbles for the two mesas at good shooting points and 1 bubble for the Defense target. With that we could cover the whole map. 

With Limbo you had only one bubble. 

I do not know about you, but when we farmed, we stood for half an hour waiting for the code. If you need speed, you can go to the ground. Which we did, because we didn't have to wait for stupid codes.

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

I do not know about you, but when we farmed, we stood for half an hour waiting for the code. If you need speed, you can go to the ground. Which we did, because we didn't have to wait for stupid codes.

It was an intrinsic farm (xp farm). I know of sick guys who stayed the whole hour only to get their intrinsic tree full

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14 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Can you give examples? Because the last events I remember are the sanctuary, the kuva fortress, and the demolists, where Frost isn't really needed. I don't know about the sanctuary, but Kuva's survival got a record with the revenant. Well, the demolists are solved simply with a high-status weapon with ice. People also used Mag in Kuva fortress.

some Events didn't necessitate a Frost, but having one makes any high Level Event run much easier.

12 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

So has the point shifted

no, nothing shifted at all. you just didn't read.

almost every Event, and specifically saying Events which have runs. because the Fusion MOA or Regulator Event didn't have any special Missions for them or anything, for example. some Events just didn't ask much of the Player other than to play a lot
while some other Events had some level of Endurance to them.

12 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Because it seems like the Scarlet Spear WR didn't contain a Frost. Nor did the Hostile Merger one. He was used in Pacifism Defect along with Limbo,

disqualified runs tended to include, but disqualified for other reasons since the the same sort of Players would also be limit breaking at the same time.

 

anyways, i don't want to drag you through this, i walked you into embarrassing yourself enough, and that's not the purpose of this Conversation for me.
if you don't know and weren't involved with, okay. the strengths of the Abilities remain either way. you just don't need what the Abilities offer outside of Endurance Missions, because our Stats are so high that basically nothing matters except in Endurance.

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10 hours ago, taiiat said:

some Events didn't necessitate a Frost, but having one makes any high Level Event run much easier.

"some Events"? Which events? Also, that "necessitate" bit? Earlier, you said

On 2021-06-08 at 7:49 AM, taiiat said:

but, every single other Event there has ever been in the game that had Endurance Leaderboards? Frost is a must have for every single one.

Granted, I'm not a native English speaker, so I went to a dictionary page. Lo and behold, "necessary" is listed as a synonym to "must have". So it appears that points keep on shifting.

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

while some other Events had some level of Endurance to them.

Which events?

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

disqualified runs tended to include

What runs? Any links to any sources whatsoever would be appreciated, because the more vague claims you make without backing anything up, the more it seems like you're making it up as you go along. Another symptom of that is the shifting on whether or not Frost is necessary, making your argument look dubious at best. But I guess that closing paragraph of yours signals that you're not interested in doing more than firing off one unsourced claim after another, and feel an increasing need to back out of this argument once sources start to be asked for. I wonder why that is...

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8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

"some Events"? Which events? Also, that "necessitate" bit? Earlier, you said

in the words you quoted there, in the same sentence, i already said having one makes any high Level Event run easier and better. that's a must have in the competitive books for most.

but it's okay, i spend all day every day dealing with people that won't read what's in front of them. i'm used to it.

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9 hours ago, taiiat said:

having one makes any high Level Event run easier and better. that's a must have in the competitive books for most.

And no sources were seen that day! Also, suddenly Frost is just a must have in the competitive books for most? Some 19 hours ago, he was a must have for every single one that had this unofficially named "Endurance Leaderboard", with the sole exception being Orphix.

On 2021-06-08 at 7:49 AM, taiiat said:

yes, Orphix is the sole exception because  Warframes were basically not allowed to be used save for a couple that could still do things.
but, every single other Event there has ever been in the game that had Endurance Leaderboards? Frost is a must have for every single one.

Now, you're of course free to claim that "every single one" does not equal "every single one". But it's not a good look, and neither is playing loose with what you're talking about. I'll let you know how you get out of this pinch, though.

You claim that with "for most", you meant those with said "Endurance Leaderboard" that gives no relevant Google results, and with the exception of Orphix, of course. Include a "obviously, that's what I meant all along", but remember to not link any sources whatsoever, because those might lend credit to your argument! And to round it all off, dedicate something between a sentence to a paragraph to ad hominem and similar.

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58 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

And no sources were seen that day! Also, suddenly Frost is just a must have in the competitive books for most?

yeah, because someone might choose to use something else despite the merits that one of the choices offer.  they probably shouldn't, but i can't control people.
there's no proof that anybody can provide to someone that has decided what the answer is before it even starts. there's no convincing bias.

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Alrighty, let's see how things went!

On 2021-06-09 at 3:16 AM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You claim that with "for most", you meant those with said "Endurance Leaderboard" that gives no relevant Google results, and with the exception of Orphix, of course.

On 2021-06-09 at 4:18 AM, taiiat said:

yeah, because someone might choose to use something else despite the merits that one of the choices offer.  they probably shouldn't, but i can't control people.

Oof, bad start. See, the reason I recommended that you went with the "I meant those specific events" route and not the one you took is that suddenly, in these

On 2021-06-09 at 2:49 AM, taiiat said:

high Level Event runs

there is still the option "to use something else" other than Frost, which completely goes against your earlier point that

On 2021-06-08 at 7:49 AM, taiiat said:

Frost is a must have for every single one.

 

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An other event would be the thermia fractures.

The fractures have the nasty habit to nullify abilitys and proc radiation. 

I had better experiences with frost than with Limbo, gara or khora 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, taiiat said:

some Events didn't necessitate a Frost, but having one makes any high Level Event run much easier.

Let's just say not Frost, but Frost dome. I have nothing against it being left as it is. But this does not mean that the rest of the things in his set do not need a rework. Including 4. Yes, maby it is strong, but again, frozen statues could have more mechanics like petrified enemies for Atlas. 

After all, we never know when DE will be able to make specials mobs that break through artificial walls, so he should have a couple more tricks, I guess. It is clear that the nullifiers do not have time to do this.

Edited by selig_fay
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30 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Let's just say not Frost, but Frost dome. I have nothing against it being left as it is. But this does not mean that the rest of the things in his set do not need a rework.

I would prefer a few buffs to Globe, but otherwise I agree. Like, Hydroid and pre-rework Wukong both have/had an invincibility ability with high uptime, Loki's got invisibility, and Inaros has a stupid amount of health plus a good bit of armor. None of them are/were truly bad, they can/could still be used for stuff, but that's far from being in a good spot. Banshee's got one of the best damage boosting abilities in the game. Does that mean she's not in need of a rework? Nope!

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On 2021-06-09 at 12:02 PM, selig_fay said:

Let's just say not Frost, but Frost dome. I have nothing against it being left as it is. But this does not mean that the rest of the things in his set do not need a rework. Including 4. Yes, maby it is strong, but again, frozen statues could have more mechanics like petrified enemies for Atlas. 

After all, we never know when DE will be able to make specials mobs that break through artificial walls, so he should have a couple more tricks, I guess. It is clear that the nullifiers do not have time to do this.

sure, the Ice Wave Augment should be innate, Freeze is a bit underwhelming even though it offers even more Slow to stack (or did that get removed when Status stacking was introduced? don't remember - Frost had 4 Slows to stack, and may still or maybe 'only' have 3 now).
Avalanche is pretty dull just like every generic AoE blast is, no argument there. the AoE2 feature that it offers is sorta neat i guess, but it doesn't really make the Ability any more interesting to use, just lets you increase the power of it if you cluster the Enemies first. despite the useful CC that Avalanche offers, that doesn't make it any less dull or boring to use.

certainly, Snowglobe being the only reliable defensive Ability with infinite scaling isn't a surefire thing in the future (Cataclysm gets an honorable mention but it has obvious cons and some Enemies have weird interactions with Rift). and maybe Snowglobe won't always have infinitely scaling Damage either.
i'd hope that doesn't change though, those are good features for the theme of this Warframe which is so heavily centralized on protecting designated zones from attack.

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2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

certainly, Snowglobe being the only reliable defensive Ability with infinite scaling isn't a surefire thing in the future (Cataclysm gets an honorable mention but it has obvious cons and some Enemies have weird interactions with Rift). and maybe Snowglobe won't always have infinitely scaling Damage either. i'd hope that doesn't change though, those are good features for the theme of this Warframe which is so heavily centralized on protecting designated zones from attack.

There's no reason to change everything. At least its mechanics work well. These may just be additional effects or basic ice-related mechanics. I think this is one of the frames that doesn't need a lot of changes. It just needs to be adjusted to the new realities.

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14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

sure, the Ice Wave Augment should be innate, Freeze is a bit underwhelming even though it offers even more Slow to stack (or did that get removed when Status stacking was introduced? don't remember - Frost had 4 Slows to stack, and may still or maybe 'only' have 3 now).
Avalanche is pretty dull just like every generic AoE blast is, no argument there. the AoE2 feature that it offers is sorta neat i guess, but it doesn't really make the Ability any more interesting to use, just lets you increase the power of it if you cluster the Enemies first. despite the useful CC that Avalanche offers, that doesn't make it any less dull or boring to use.

certainly, Snowglobe being the only reliable defensive Ability with infinite scaling isn't a surefire thing in the future (Cataclysm gets an honorable mention but it has obvious cons and some Enemies have weird interactions with Rift). and maybe Snowglobe won't always have infinitely scaling Damage either.
i'd hope that doesn't change though, those are good features for the theme of this Warframe which is so heavily centralized on protecting designated zones from attack.

Yeah, to quote myself from another thread.

On 2021-06-05 at 2:40 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Frost would probably be alright with just a few number increases and a new passive, like an AoE slow or increased effect of the Cold status. Having his 2 Augment be baseline would be good, as would allowing more of his stuff to be affected by ability mods, like the AoE of his 1 and the slow of his 3. Removing the angle cap on his 2 would also be good - compare to Oberon's ability to go full 360 with Hallowed Ground.

One thing I forgot to mention in that post, though. The damage scaling on Globe is definitely nice, but the downside is that it's not modified by Strength. A comparison can be made to Iron Skin and Warding Halo. Halo multiplies the absorbed damage, allowing you to get a longer duration under enemy fire than the invincibility period (as long as you can survive due to it not being 100% damage reduction, of course). Iron Skin, on the other hand, should on paper only last for 6 seconds on higher levels - 3s of absorption, 3s of an equal amount of incoming damage. Rhino gets away with it though due to having an augment that can temporarily send his Armor through the roof. Frost doesn't have this benefit, and is instead stuck with what's effectively an unmoddable Globe duration of 8 seconds of enemy fire per cast. The scaling health is essentially scaled on a 1:1 basis with time - 4s of absorption gives 4s of health, for each cast.

I got another idea that would help

On 2021-05-16 at 8:15 PM, Leqesai said:

to bring his kit into the 21st century

but seeing as the atmosphere in this thread is so toxic that mods have both removed and stealth-edited comments, I don't know if me attempting to engage

On 2021-06-08 at 12:33 AM, Leqesai said:

in healthy discussion with those who think differently than

me is a good idea, or it'll just be like striking a match in a gas-filled mine. I'll let the replies I get on this comment decide.

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14 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

he damage scaling on Globe is definitely nice, but the downside is that it's not modified by Strength.

Frost doesn't have this benefit, and is instead stuck with what's effectively an unmoddable Globe duration of 8 seconds of enemy fire per cast.

i don't see that as a con at all. it scales as well as Covert Lethality used to. gets more useful as Enemy Levels increase. it doesn't need to Mod scale at all, and it would probably get nerfed if it did, frankly.

Snowglobe has less you can take advantage of to scale with than Iron Skin, no convenient Augment to let you comically Multiply your Armor - though you can still use some of the same mechanics if you really wanted. you could still use Arcane Tanker and Guardian, but it's not practical to bother stacking that stuff usually since you can't get it to extremes off of it to overscale it. but then ,does it actually need it? 6-8 Seconds of surefire protection is quite good because of the level of protection it offers. 
not the most interesting to mechanically work with, mainly just placement and recasting enough to keep it up - but effective irregardless of what Enemy or what Level Enemy nonetheless.

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