Is Frost just outdated?

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

6-8 Seconds of surefire protection is quite good because of the level of protection it offers. 

Sure, but if one looks at it as a 8s protection ability, I believe that also makes it the only duration-based protection ability whose duration can't be scaled. Zephyr's turbulence has a base duration of 20 - imagine if it was less than half that and unmoddable. That's basically my motivation in a nutshell.

Also lol, this thread is no longer listed as Warframe Feedback, but General Discussion.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Perfectly_Framed_Waifu:

Sure, but if one looks at it as a 8s protection ability, I believe that also makes it the only duration-based protection ability whose duration can't be scaled.

yeah but that train of thought differs from reality. I mean globe is not a duration based ability but a strenght based.

It is like if you are comparing rhino's iron skin or nezha's halo with Zephyr's Turbulence or gara's splinterstorm. If you compare for how long this abilitys can block peak dmg. Yes duration-based abilities win, but the str. Based ones can be sustained far longer. 

The question is not what is better, but what suits your needs.

 

 

 

[ArmsForPeace84]

Someone beat me to the point I was going to make.

So I'll just say, Frost was always going to be situational. 99% of this game is, how quick can you kill all the things.

The presence of even one warframe that's a little faster, theoretically, makes all the rest obsolete. But only if you're worried about shaving seconds, or fractions of a second, off your mission time.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

I mean globe is not a duration based ability but a strenght based.

It is like if you are comparing rhino's iron skin or nezha's halo with Zephyr's Turbulence or gara's splinterstorm. If you compare for how long this abilitys can block peak dmg. Yes duration-based abilities win, but the str. Based ones can be sustained far longer. 

The question is not what is better, but what suits your needs.

I basically went over that in my comment before the one you replied to.

4 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The damage scaling on Globe is definitely nice, but the downside is that it's not modified by Strength. A comparison can be made to Iron Skin and Warding Halo. Halo multiplies the absorbed damage, allowing you to get a longer duration under enemy fire than the invincibility period (as long as you can survive due to it not being 100% damage reduction, of course). Iron Skin, on the other hand, should on paper only last for 6 seconds on higher levels - 3s of absorption, 3s of an equal amount of incoming damage. Rhino gets away with it though due to having an augment that can temporarily send his Armor through the roof. Frost doesn't have this benefit, and is instead stuck with what's effectively an unmoddable Globe duration of 8 seconds of enemy fire per cast. The scaling health is essentially scaled on a 1:1 basis with time - 4s of absorption gives 4s of health, for each cast.

And as pointed out by another commenter

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

Snowglobe has less you can take advantage of to scale with than Iron Skin, no convenient Augment to let you comically Multiply your Armor - though you can still use some of the same mechanics if you really wanted. you could still use Arcane Tanker and Guardian, but it's not practical to bother stacking that stuff usually since you can't get it to extremes off of it to overscale it.

Globe doesn't apply Strength to the absorbed damage like Warding Halo does, nor does Frost's kit contain any way to send his armor soaring, meaning that the Strength based portion of the health quickly gets out-scaled by enemy firepower. All that's left is more or less a 1:1 ratio between damage absorbed and total health. 4 seconds of enemy fire yields 4.XX seconds of health under the same amount of enemy fire. If the absorbed damage is low, the health will be about equally low. And sure, the health lasts longer if you can keep the enemies from shooting it, but the better you are at that, the more redundant Globe becomes.

In either case, Frost's ability to put up to four Globes in different locations becomes increasingly impeded by distance as it becomes harder and harder to make it in time to refresh them. Again, 8 seconds of essentially unmoddable duration. While the obvious counter-argument here is that each Globe may not be under an equally high amount of enemy fire, thus increasing their lifespan, that would ignore the fact that Globes placed without said high enemy fire consequently becomes equally weak.

If a Globe is placed in the woods and nobody's there to attack it, does it accomplish anything?

[JaycemeSwain]

On 2021-05-14 at 6:25 AM, ClosedBetaTester said:

Howdy ya'll~ Returning player and was super excited to finally get Frost. But as soon as I hit 30, I found him to be very lackluster. Maybe it'll get better once I get the Helmith modifications. Any suggestions on how to take him out of a niche role?

Simply rework him so he can't be a troll frame. like remove his cruddy variant of Gara/Limbo's 4 in his globe and turn him into a damage frame. I had an idea some time back for an Ice Queen themed frame who was all focused on freezing enemies and causing havok to frozen enemies

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Perfectly_Framed_Waifu:

I basically went over that in my comment before the one you replied to.

And as pointed out by another commenter

Globe doesn't apply Strength to the absorbed damage like Warding Halo does, nor does Frost's kit contain any way to send his armor soaring, meaning that the Strength based portion of the health quickly gets out-scaled by enemy firepower. All that's left is more or less a 1:1 ratio between damage absorbed and total health. 4 seconds of enemy fire yields 4.XX seconds of health under the same amount of enemy fire. If the absorbed damage is low, the health will be about equally low. And sure, the health lasts longer if you can keep the enemies from shooting it, but the better you are at that, the more redundant Globe becomes.

In either case, Frost's ability to put up to four Globes in different locations becomes increasingly impeded by distance as it becomes harder and harder to make it in time to refresh them. Again, 8 seconds of essentially unmoddable duration. While the obvious counter-argument here is that each Globe may not be under an equally high amount of enemy fire, thus increasing their lifespan, that would ignore the fact that Globes placed without said high enemy fire consequently becomes equally weak.

If a Globe is placed in the woods and nobody's there to attack it, does it accomplish anything?

Yes, but to cover that weakness of globe, Frost has Avalanche.

1. Place bubble ( 4 seconds time invincibility)

2. After 3 seconds use Avalanche 

3. You have 8 sec time (modable) to eliminate as many enemies as possible, because nobody's there to attack.

E4. You have 4 or more seconds ( less enemies because you killed some vs next wave of enemies) to recast globe

5 . Recast globe. leftover healths stacks.

6. Repeat

~16sec pro iteration 

Globe and Avalanche have great synergies by default (without forced ones like mass vitrify and splinterstorm )

Your math examples are correct, if i would play frost like you described.

Now you can argue nezha & rhino have an equivalent of Avalanche, so the same playstyle applies to them, but their abilities are still better.

Sadly no, because iron skin and warding holo are not refreshable ( we can argue about rhino with augment) and even less stackable.

Imagine a stackable iron skin or halo. That is madness

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

49 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Yes, but to cover that weakness of globe, Frost has Avalanche.

1. Place bubble ( 4 seconds time invincibility)

2. After 3 seconds use Avalanche 

3. You have 8 sec time (modable) to eliminate as many enemies as possible, because nobody's there to attack.

E4. You have 4 or more seconds ( less enemies because you killed some vs next wave of enemies) to recast globe

5 . Recast globe. leftover healths stacks.

6. Repeat

~16sec pro iteration 

Alternatively,

1. Cast Avalanche.

2. You have 8 sec time (modable) to eliminate as many enemies as possible, because nobody's there to attack.

3. Repeat.

4. You save an Avalanche's worth of energy each lap around.

5. Realize that another frame could've just put down a CC field that takes them out of the equation before they have time to shoot at whatever Globe is supposed to protect, and that said whatever may or may not have shield gating and/or health regen to mitigate chip damage.

6. Also this proposed cover of Globe's weakness doesn't appear to take multiple globes into account.

55 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Globe and Avalanche have great synergies by default (without forced ones like mass vitrify and splinterstorm )

The same kind of great synergies that Vauban's 7 forms of CC had before his recent rework: redundant, with one outshining the others.

57 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Now you can argue nezha & rhino have an equivalent of Avalanche, so the same playstyle applies to them, but their abilities are still better.

Sadly no, because iron skin and warding holo are not refreshable ( we can argue about rhino with augment) and even less stackable.

Imagine a stackable iron skin or halo. That is madness

Well, the thing is that Rhino and Nezha also have shield gating and a period of invulnerability, respectively, so neither refreshes nor stacking is exactly necessary for either of them. While Globe can be stacked and refreshed, it's in practice the same thing as casting a new Globe the moment the old one dies - 4 seconds of absorption (A) per cast, and 4 seconds of duration (D) under an equal amount of enemy fire per cast. Rhino (without augment) and Nezha play according to a ADADADAD rhythm, while Frost can either play via ADADADAD, AAAADDDD, AADDAADD or any other rhythm you want. For each of the three respectively, four casts still gives a summed up health pool corresponding to four casts of their respective ability. Frost's stacking and refreshing is essentially nothing more than QoL.

(And honestly, stacking Halo would arguably be more of a downside than an upside, as you'd only get one period of invincibility when it expires instead of two. If Globe gave everything inside a second of invincibility when it expired, I bet there would be many situations where you wouldn't want to stack it.)

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Perfectly_Framed_Waifu:

Alternatively,

1. Cast Avalanche.

2. You have 8 sec time (modable) to eliminate as many enemies as possible, because nobody's there to attack.

3. Repeat.

4. You save an Avalanche's worth of energy each lap around.

5. Realize that another frame could've just put down a CC field that takes them out of the equation before they have time to shoot at whatever Globe is supposed to protect, and that said whatever may or may not have shield gating and/or health regen to mitigate chip damage.

6. Also this proposed cover of Globe's weakness doesn't appear to take multiple globes into account.

The same kind of great synergies that Vauban's 7 forms of CC had before his recent rework: redundant, with one outshining the others.

Well, the thing is that Rhino and Nezha also have shield gating and a period of invulnerability, respectively, so neither refreshes nor stacking is exactly necessary for either of them. While Globe can be stacked and refreshed, it's in practice the same thing as casting a new Globe the moment the old one dies - 4 seconds of absorption (A) per cast, and 4 seconds of duration (D) under an equal amount of enemy fire per cast. Rhino (without augment) and Nezha play according to a ADADADAD rhythm, while Frost can either play via ADADADAD, AAAADDDD, AADDAADD or any other rhythm you want. For each of the three respectively, four casts still gives a summed up health pool corresponding to four casts of their respective ability. Frost's stacking and refreshing is essentially nothing more than QoL.

(And honestly, stacking Halo would arguably be more of a downside than an upside, as you'd only get one period of invincibility when it expires instead of two. If Globe gave everything inside a second of invincibility when it expired, I bet there would be many situations where you wouldn't want to stack it.)

In theory yes, practical not really.

Enemy always comes in waves.

at the peak of each wave you stack the artificial health pools, then CC& annihilation and the survivors are normally no danger to the def abilities. So using a second CC ability is in most cases a waste until the next wave peak hits the front. The globe is a good method to protect the target at the downtime of each wave.

 

An other case why probably globe has no multiplier is squad mechanics:

More player means more enemies/more damage.

In most cases not a problem, because the enemies are divided between the players. But globe is a team protection. If all teammates stay together during the invincible phase and then split up the bubble must only confront a fraction of the possible dmg

 

Your shield gating assertion is not exactly right. The invulnerability at the end is more or less a necessity. The keyword is overdamage. 

Example: the artificial health pool (aHP) is nearly depleted. Then you are hit with a heavy strike. What happens next?

Rhino: shield gating kicks in and saves you from one hit kill

Nezha: the invulnerability from halo kicks in and saves you from one hit kill

(If you are searching for the second period of invulnerability that will rarely happen, because halo is damage reduction not invincibility. The shield is in most cases already depleted and then you are 4 seconds without shields. The invulnerability from halo is more of a compensation than goodwill)

If I could recasting as I want, then  I could stack the aHP through the wave mechanic as high as i want.

I you play against SP infested you will get it. It is annoying to sustain this abilities against them

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Enemy always comes in waves.

at the peak of each wave you stack the artificial health pools, then CC& annihilation and the survivors are normally no danger to the def abilities. So using a second CC ability is in most cases a waste until the next wave peak hits the front. The globe is a good method to protect the target at the downtime of each wave.

We're still only talking about Frost here, I assume, because other frames have CC fields lasting long enough to take you through the downtime between waves. Frost is not so lucky. Still, if we're only talking Frost, there's basically three phases you can be in:

1. Around wave peak. Large numbers of enemies.

2. The in-between. Too few enemies for you to feel casting Avalanche is worth it, but too many for you to feel safe guarding the target on your own.

3. Around the low point. Few enough enemies that the target is not under any threat. You can deal with them with guns only.

If you're good enough, you can bridge the gap between phase 1 and 3, eliminating the need for phase 2 and saving you the energy. The problem here is that Frost's Avalanche doesn't freeze for long enough and/or doesn't strip enough armor for this to be an easy transition. This, however, only goes to show Frost's weakness, as other frames have the ability to either do this transition seamlessly, or even just cruise on their CC from peak to peak.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

An other case why probably globe has no multiplier is squad mechanics:

More player means more enemies/more damage.

In most cases not a problem, because the enemies are divided between the players. But globe is a team protection. If all teammates stay together during the invincible phase and then split up the bubble must only confront a fraction of the possible dmg

But then you're not protecting your teammates. Not exactly team protection at that point, right? Plus that subsequent bubbles will be a lot weaker and will thus fall within a couple of seconds once the enemies decide "hey, let's attack this place". This is not a rare occurrence, and probably most noticeable in Interception. Of course, depending on the map size, a more effective form of defense at that point is just to freeze everything. The argument then loops back to Avalanche's relatively low duration and effective range. (See Vauban's ability to lock down multiple areas with Bastille/Vortex.)

1 hour ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Your shield gating assertion is not exactly right. The invulnerability at the end is more or less a necessity.

Whether it's a necessity or not is largely irrelevant. Iron Skin and Warding Halo both have a form of invulnerability at the end, Globe doesn't but has recastability and additive stacking instead. In the end, casting each respective ability X times results in health equal to casting the ability X times.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

If I could recasting as I want, then  I could stack the aHP through the wave mechanic as high as i want.

Besides the hard HP cap on Globe, anyway. Not only can Iron Skin go over Globe's cap, but you don't have to sit around recasting the same ability again and again, either. As for Halo, a single cast basically grants you almost two Globe casts worth of health under peak wave enemy fire, and that's further multiplied with Strength, too. With as little as 160% Strength, that becomes a total of 12 seconds of Globe absorption under peak wave enemy fire, in a quarter of the time. If you want to capture the absolute peak of enemy fire, Halo does it better.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

I you play against SP infested you will get it. It is annoying to sustain this abilities against them

If I play against SP infested as Nezha or Rhino, I have an AoE CC with a base range that's 4 and 10 meters higher than Avalanche, respectively, the former with a duration that's just as long while the latter's 50% longer. Also, Infested aren't exactly known for their armor, so Rhino's and Nezha's respective damage amps would do much better. It's not like I'm just gonna stand there and let melee enemies hit me, but even then, Frost would of course lose in a face-tank scenario. (Also, there's Vortex.)

Time and time again, I find myself thinking back on that earlier request:

On 2021-06-04 at 1:42 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

  On 2021-05-20 at 10:12 PM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

explain what he can do that another frame cant do equally as well if not better. 

[Zaniel_Aus]

People are crazy, he's still the best frame in the game even to this day at protecting a single point (other than maybe Limbo). Gara or Khora "do more" for sure but in terms of just providing a shield he does his niche in Defense and Excavation perfectly. There's this bizarre trend at the moment where every frame needs all 4 skills to have 100% armour strip + CC + infinite scaling damage + team invulnerability+ energy replenishment + loot buff or we just can't play it.

[taiiat]

12 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Globe doesn't apply Strength to the absorbed damage like Warding Halo does, nor does Frost's kit contain any way to send his armor soaring

i don't have much complaints about Snowglobe as it stands because of being such a perfect protection for anything inside.
but, since you bring it up, i'd welcome a Strength based Multiplier for incoming Damage. something more modest, so as it's not a main feature of the Ability, but a helping factor. something like incoming Damage increased by 40% (1.4x, modding value based on +0.4) would be modest enough to not make you exclusively focus on it, but help if you wanted to push it.

[Zhoyzu]

4 hours ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

 There's this bizarre trend at the moment where every frame needs all 4 skills to have 100% armour strip + CC + infinite scaling damage + team invulnerability+ energy replenishment + loot buff or we just can't play it.

i Have also noticed this from streams and YT and its turned me off from the steel path.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

but, since you bring it up, i'd welcome a Strength based Multiplier for incoming Damage. something more modest, so as it's not a main feature of the Ability, but a helping factor. something like incoming Damage increased by 40% (1.4x, modding value based on +0.4) would be modest enough to not make you exclusively focus on it, but help if you wanted to push it.

Yeah, I don't intend for it to be something that major, just that it exists so you have a reason to scale something more than Range and Efficiency for the ability. At most, I'd want a straight Absorption x Strength, no 2.5 multiplier as is part of Warding Halo.

8 hours ago, Zaniel_Aus said:

People are crazy, he's still the best frame in the game even to this day at protecting a single point (other than maybe Limbo). Gara or Khora "do more" for sure but in terms of just providing a shield he does his niche in Defense and Excavation perfectly. There's this bizarre trend at the moment where every frame needs all 4 skills to have 100% armour strip + CC + infinite scaling damage + team invulnerability+ energy replenishment + loot buff or we just can't play it.

Comments like these always amuse me, because they make me wonder if the person considers any frame in the game at all to be in need of a rework, and how they'd react when you threw this argument right back at them.

Honest questions to everyone, is a frame in a good spot when two of their abilities have less impact than just firing your gun, and you would be excused for forgetting they even have a passive? Does literally every single part of their kit need to be awful for them to be considered bad? I've seen a ton of people in this thread defend Globe and Avalanche, but just like in gameplay, Freeze and Ice Wave have gone largely ignored.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Perfectly_Framed_Waifu:

We're still only talking about Frost here, I assume, because other frames have CC fields lasting long enough to take you through the downtime between waves. Frost is not so lucky. Still, if we're only talking Frost, there's basically three phases you can be in:

1. Around wave peak. Large numbers of enemies.

2. The in-between. Too few enemies for you to feel casting Avalanche is worth it, but too many for you to feel safe guarding the target on your own.

3. Around the low point. Few enough enemies that the target is not under any threat. You can deal with them with guns only.

If you're good enough, you can bridge the gap between phase 1 and 3, eliminating the need for phase 2 and saving you the energy. The problem here is that Frost's Avalanche doesn't freeze for long enough and/or doesn't strip enough armor for this to be an easy transition. This, however, only goes to show Frost's weakness, as other frames have the ability to either do this transition seamlessly, or even just cruise on their CC from peak to peak.

But then you're not protecting your teammates. Not exactly team protection at that point, right? Plus that subsequent bubbles will be a lot weaker and will thus fall within a couple of seconds once the enemies decide "hey, let's attack this place". This is not a rare occurrence, and probably most noticeable in Interception. Of course, depending on the map size, a more effective form of defense at that point is just to freeze everything. The argument then loops back to Avalanche's relatively low duration and effective range. (See Vauban's ability to lock down multiple areas with Bastille/Vortex.)

Whether it's a necessity or not is largely irrelevant. Iron Skin and Warding Halo both have a form of invulnerability at the end, Globe doesn't but has recastability and additive stacking instead. In the end, casting each respective ability X times results in health equal to casting the ability X times.

Besides the hard HP cap on Globe, anyway. Not only can Iron Skin go over Globe's cap, but you don't have to sit around recasting the same ability again and again, either. As for Halo, a single cast basically grants you almost two Globe casts worth of health under peak wave enemy fire, and that's further multiplied with Strength, too. With as little as 160% Strength, that becomes a total of 12 seconds of Globe absorption under peak wave enemy fire, in a quarter of the time. If you want to capture the absolute peak of enemy fire, Halo does it better.

If I play against SP infested as Nezha or Rhino, I have an AoE CC with a base range that's 4 and 10 meters higher than Avalanche, respectively, the former with a duration that's just as long while the latter's 50% longer. Also, Infested aren't exactly known for their armor, so Rhino's and Nezha's respective damage amps would do much better. It's not like I'm just gonna stand there and let melee enemies hit me, but even then, Frost would of course lose in a face-tank scenario. (Also, there's Vortex.)

Time and time again, I find myself thinking back on that earlier request:

 So fundamentally it is value problem that you have.

True if you look at the abilities separately there are inferior to others on a first look.

example. gauss thermal sunder: 

Thermal Sunder can outperform Avalanche but only if the battery is (over-)charged.

Without the battery thermal Sunder has only a fraction of the power of Avalanche.

When we have learned something from helminth system then some abilities on the right frame can be sick.

Frost can protect and CC as the situation needs it. His flexibility in that aspect is unchallenged. 

 

About halo i think it pointless to discuss that further, because one side is a tank ability and the other is an area of protection ability. I could mention that halo and Frost have different energy cost, but I don't think that discussion will bear any fruits.

 

And do me favor do not create riddles in your infested part if you want to explain something.

I did not even try to understand that links of comparisons. Use the actual values. it is easier and not wall of confusing text. It is like i am listing to a politician. 

 

For the question what is better?

For me it is like you want to argue which is the strongest between rock, paper and scissors 

 

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

 So fundamentally it is value problem that you have.

Values, lacking ability mod scaling, and too much focus on an immobile playstyle - those are basically my biggest gripes with him.

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

example. gauss thermal sunder: 

Thermal Sunder can outperform Avalanche but only if the battery is (over-)charged.

Without the battery thermal Sunder has only a fraction of the power of Avalanche.

And that's just looking at what Thermal Sunder can do that it has in common with Avalanche. The former's nuke potential scales well into the Steel Path, whereas the latter quickly becomes just a CC ability.

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Frost can protect and CC as the situation needs it. His flexibility in that aspect is unchallenged. 

If one excludes the gamebreaking godhood of Limbo, anyway. And maybe a few others.

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

About halo i think it pointless to discuss that further, because one side is a tank ability and the other is an area of protection ability. I could mention that halo and Frost have different energy cost, but I don't think that discussion will bear any fruits.

I think this is a bad standard to set for how to discuss abilities, because the same argument can be used to dismiss comparisons between the vast majority of abilities. For example:

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

About Mass Vitrify i think it pointless to discuss that further, because one side is a CC wall, nuke and damage boosting ability and the other is an area of protection ability. I could mention that Vitrify and Frost have different energy cost, but I don't think that discussion will bear any fruits.

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

About Cataclysm i think it pointless to discuss that further, because one side is an AoE field ability to set up for Stasis and the other is an area of protection ability. I could mention that Cataclysm and Frost have different energy cost, but I don't think that discussion will bear any fruits.

 

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

And do me favor do not create riddles in your infested part if you want to explain something.

I did not even try to understand that links of comparisons. Use the actual values. it is easier and not wall of confusing text. It is like i am listing to a politician. 

Basically, versus infested, Rhino and Nezha are better than Frost, because Stomp and Divine Spears have larger AoE than Avalanche, among other things. If this is a point you want to argue against, I suggest you try to understand my comment above.

[White_Matter]

It is, like 70% of the rest of the game.

The helminth kinda saved things a little, but it doesn't change the fact that there are alot of frames that are flat out inferior to others and there is no point in using them. If you play steel path it becomes much more obvious.

[0_The_F00l]

I hadn't played Frost in a while ,

Put an umbra forma on him , and injected him with a very powerful and thematically apt subsume ability (Gloom duh) instead of ice wave

cleared today's Steel path incursions and sortie with him, 

Used the following build:

https://overframe.gg/build/new/23/frost-prime/?bs=WzEsMjMsMzAsMSxbWzY3OCw1LDBdLFs4MDIsMTAsM10sWzExMywzLDBdLFs4MDYsNSwyXSxbNjk1LDEwLDhdLFs4MDAsMTAsMV0sWzc5MywxMCwxXSxbNzkxLDUsM10sWzMwMCw1LDFdLFs2NSw1LDBdLFsyMjA3LDUsMF0sWzIyMDUsNSwwXV0sWzEsNTQ0OF1d

Works brilliantly, but cant be lazy.

Need to ensure the ice skin is always on (manageable with Primed flow + fleeting expertise+ Arcane energize + Exodia brave) to keep all the status effects at bay,

of course if i have to depend on something like gloom and then have to tweak the loadaout perfectly and still need skill and attention it doesnt exactly speak in favour of the frame itself.

It could definitely use some minor stat tweaks (more energy for sure such that there is a 250 energy reserve at 30, or some enemy based scaling for avalanche with augment ) so the load out isn't so investment heavy ,

But its not in a position that it performs poorly in either mobile or static missions.

Hell , having the ability to CC , Debuff and support in a single cast has made me want to use him more often - it functioned very similarly to Nezha , which is one of my favourite frames.

Never felt i was ever lacking in any specific attribute.

 

[(PSN)Svenx13]

On 2021-06-10 at 12:31 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Values, lacking ability mod scaling, and too much focus on an immobile playstyle - those are basically my biggest gripes with him.

values and lacking ability mod scaling can i accept as an objective problem.

A constructive criticism with actual values would be nicer than saying he sucks.

The immobile playstyle sounds like a personal problem. He is a defensive frame they are by default not mobile. Like Gauss or Volt

On 2021-06-10 at 12:31 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

And that's just looking at what Thermal Sunder can do that it has in common with Avalanche. The former's nuke potential scales well into the Steel Path, whereas the latter quickly becomes just a CC ability.

Already answered that in the first sentence 

On 2021-06-10 at 11:59 AM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

True if you look at the abilities separately there are inferior to others on a first look.

example. gauss thermal sunder: 

Thermal Sunder can outperform Avalanche but only if the battery is (over-)charged.

Without the battery thermal Sunder has only a fraction of the power of Avalanche.

When we have learned something from helminth system then some abilities on the right frame can be sick.

 

 

 

On 2021-06-10 at 12:31 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

If one excludes the gamebreaking godhood of Limbo, anyway. And maybe a few others.

and then comes the godslayer: Stalker, Acolyth, Kuva Liches etc.

You have chosen paper, I have chosen scissors. Because most of the enemies are Rock, doesn't change the fact that scissors exists. 

On 2021-06-10 at 12:31 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I think this is a bad standard to set for how to discuss abilities, because the same argument can be used to dismiss comparisons between the vast majority of abilities. 

Complicated rock, paper, scissors. But please sort snowglobe,  mass vitrify, vortex, cataclysm in 2x2 spreadsheet with duration-based, healtpoint based, able to block shots, not able to block shots. Then tell me which ability shares the same cell with snowglobe.

On 2021-06-10 at 12:31 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Basically, versus infested, Rhino and Nezha are better than Frost, because Stomp and Divine Spears have larger AoE than Avalanche, among other things. If this is a point you want to argue against, I suggest you try to understand my comment above.

nope that is not the point that I want argue against. I want so say instead of the invulnerability at the end of this abilities I would prefer a stackable recast because I am more flexible when I want to recharge the aHP.

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

On 2021-06-10 at 4:15 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

values and lacking ability mod scaling can i accept as an objective problem.

A constructive criticism with actual values would be nicer than saying he sucks.

1. See my previous comments, then. 2. Try to live as you preach and start using some actual values, then. 

On 2021-06-10 at 4:15 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

He is a defensive frame they are by default not mobile.

Nova, Equinox, Vauban, Sevagoth, and more would beg to differ. Frost is in the minority, here.

On 2021-06-10 at 4:15 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

and then comes the godslayer: Stalker, Acolyth, Kuva Liches etc.

You have chosen paper, I have chosen scissors. Because most of the enemies are Rock, doesn't change the fact that scissors exists. 

That's one way of saying that Frost straight-up loses to normal enemies. You might want to think over your analogies a bit better.

What you're giving examples of here is a bunch of hard-counters, which is an indication of something being a little too godly.

On 2021-06-10 at 4:15 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

nope that is not the point that I want argue against.

I'm not surprised you don't want to argue against anything where a frame besides Frost is provably better.

[Vahnstahd]

why even bother playing frost until he gets an update, oh he never will due to players thinking he doesn't need changes, or that he is still "super strong" and isn't outdated, kinda blows he won't get looked at for probably 5 more years.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

On 2021-06-10 at 5:20 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

1. See my previous comments, then.

2. Try to live as you preach and start using some actual values, then. 

1. ..... Sounds like a lot of work.

2. I did that, but you don't seem like thermal sunder on Frost 

On 2021-06-10 at 5:20 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

On 2021-06-10 at 4:15 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

He is a defensive frame they are by default not mobile. Like Gauss or Volt

Nova, Equinox, Vauban, Sevagoth, and more would beg to differ. Frost is in the minority, here.

lol.

1 I want see how your vauban is as fast Volt and gauss. That 0,05 more sprint speed than frost must be ridiculous.

2. if you declare nova Equinox  and sevagoth as defensive frames then every frame is a defensive frame

On 2021-06-10 at 5:20 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That's one way of saying that Frost straight-up loses to normal enemies. You might want to think over your analogies a bit better.

What you're giving examples of here is a bunch of hard-counters, which is an indication of something being a little too godly.

I don't think so, because Frost is a well. He defeats normal enemies and hard counters equally. I admit it is a little cramped in the well, because a rock and a pair of scissors must fit in there,but it is possible.

 

[(PSN)Svenx13]

On 2021-06-10 at 11:09 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Name one thing - be it armor stripping, AoE lockdown, target protection, or whatever. No "he can do X and Y with only one ability", because that'll merely be a description of an ability, arbitrarily limited to that ability instead of the frame as a whole.

Boring try, but aHP based AoE protection is one thing, which i am allowed mention. So don't dodge 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

On 2021-06-10 at 11:35 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

Wrong i have never mentioned that frost is only using globe you are only assuming it.. so don't dodge

That is not the issue here. It is that 

On 2021-06-10 at 11:23 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

aHP based AoE protection

goes against

On 2021-06-10 at 9:58 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

No "he can do X and Y with only one ability", because that'll merely be a description of an ability

"aHP based AoE protection" is an ability description, not something he can do. If the question was regarding Loki, it'd be the same as putting forth "shield based aggro diversion" instead of simply "aggro diversion" as an argument for what Loki supposedly excels at, arbitrarily excluding all aggro diversions who are not shield based, like Resonator or Molt. In short, what's asked for is

On 2021-06-10 at 9:58 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

what he can do

Not by which means he can do it.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

On 2021-06-10 at 11:54 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That is not the issue here. It is that 

goes against

"aHP based AoE protection" is an ability description, not something he can do. If the question was regarding Loki, it'd be the same as putting forth "shield based aggro diversion" instead of simply "aggro diversion" as an argument for what Loki supposedly excels at, arbitrarily excluding all aggro diversions who are not shield based, like Resonator or Molt. In short, what's asked for is

Not by which means he can do it.

Wrong, because in warframe the method matters, because it must suit your needs

It is like if you putting forth "the best tanking", we have many choices like gauss, rhino, nezha, gara, Zephyr, Mesa, we have lot to consider.

But if we extremely specifiy the needs like "the best tanking against few but strong enemies with limited energy" 

The absolute king will be revenant. 

But if you don't like it how i named it . Ok i can rename it.

"AoE protection with an unlimited duration"

I think you will try dodging again, but i am already used to it.

 

 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

Objectively, Frost is functional, but so is every frame in the game. “Functional” should not be the baseline where we decide a frame is in a good place.

That being said, the argument in this thread seems to be stemming over “what single thing can Frost do better than every other frame”? I would say the answer to that is nothing. Defending a stationary objective he’s close, but Limbo is still better.

But with over 45 frames in the game, it’s pretty difficult for every single one of them to have something they do better than all the others. With that many frames you’re just bound to have a ton of overlap in ability function.

So I don’t think that fact alone makes Frost bad, but l am in agreement that he’s outdated. If a frame isn’t going to have a single niche that they do better than all the rest, then they need to have several areas where they’re at least very good. Frost currently has neither.

I know there was a comment earlier in the thread about someone using Frost for all mission types, but I would argue that just because you can clear content with him still doesn’t make him a good or efficient choice for that content. Game is pretty easy, any frame can clear just about any content, so that’s not really an argument IMO.