When players discuss balance…

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I tend to hold things to a standard of level 100-150.

there’s people who hold things to levels 5-20. And there’s people who hold things to levels 10000000000-2000000000000000.

Seems accurate. There’s quite a range of personal preferences.

Sometimes I want to be overpowered, sometimes I want to struggle.

🤔 Am I the only one who runs the entire range by choice? Not everyone’s spoken up about how they approach the game.

edit: What makes the standard of 100-150 appealing to you?

[CrimsonXX]

13 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

-all your posts in this thread-

Wow you are by far one of the most elitist up their own -something I can't say here else get on mod's bad side- types I've run across so far. You are by far the type that most pisses me off across all of gaming. You want to call everyone not up to your b.s. tryhard ridiculous idea of gaming as "lazy", like truly get over yourself. You're a quintessential example of someone trying to stroke their own...ego and wanting to lord it over others, because they don't do it like you do or have your priorities in mind. I don't seek challenge or ego boosting, I've taken my sweet time over the 8 years slowly progressing forward and still having fun with it. What isn't fun? Back when Mutalist Ospreys could wipe out a room; getting locked down by Bursas nonstop spawning cause no one can get to an alert. Or let's go truly back in time for me to rage quitting the entire game and coming within a minute of uninstalling cause of getting a mission fail at the very start of the original opening of the game, when there were only 5 revives and enemies could tear into you even in what amounted to a tutorial. Back when we popped out of the cryo to be face to face with Vor and his crew. That isn't fun, it isn't a good approach at all to introducing people to the game nor should it EVER be something returned to; yet I imagine its exactly what tryhard ego-strokers like yourself would want. You CHOSE to build up mods and go for "nuke" builds thus trivializing content, you made that CHOICE. You can sit here and spout about how not doing it is artificial challenge or whatever garbage you want. The fact is that for YOU and YOUR CHOICE that content is weakened, for everyone else its not. Though ones like you rarely give any cares about others and only about your own case. You'd have Warframe turned into Dark Souls 2.0 cause then you'd get your ego boosters, likely to make up for irl.

This is a GAME that is about having FUN and one that tries to allow for EVERYONE to be able to HAVE FUN, while you just want something you can use to boost up your own ego so that you "don't fall asleep". Also DE has indeed made adjustments for "casuals", but they've BEEN chasing "endgame" and so called "challenge" for a while now and nothing has been good enough. Nor would it ever be because whatever they were to come up with within a week there'd be x, y, and z ways to plow through it; cause you people can't just chill and enjoy content. You have to plow through it and trivialize it, then complain cause its no longer difficult and the next one isn't immediate available (cause how dare things like that need time to be thought of, developed, and implemented). Hell just look to Steel Path which is content I likely will never touch, it lasted maybe all of a week or two, most a month before falling into your little "no challenge to it" b.s. Go play Dark Souls or whatever hits your tryhard stroking needs, instead of trying to talk down to/look down on anyone not being a tryhard and instead just enjoying the game. I'll be wanting a new areas, new enemies, new lore for THIS game to enjoy, while making my way at my own pace through the content of the game and having fun with it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just wanted to say this topic has been going fascinatingly. It’s been great learning about how individual people approach Warframe and what each person prioritises. A lot of interesting points made across the entire gamut of “What does a player look for in this game”

Looking forward to learning more 👍 

 

[RazerXPrime]

18 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I felt it was good, the reason I thought this is because it's one of the only instances in this game where 1 hit KO mechanics were done  properly ie the attack is telegraphed and 100% avoidable with correct timing. Likewise the crystals had a colour code to them that rewarded being observant. It's one of the few fights DE has gotten right in a while.

Yay for colorblind people like me. I had to brute force that part.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Seems accurate. There’s quite a range of personal preferences.

Sometimes I want to be overpowered, sometimes I want to struggle.

🤔 Am I the only one who runs the entire range by choice? Not everyone’s spoken up about how they approach the game.

edit: What makes the standard of 100-150 appealing to you?

Level 100 just feels like a good place for things to start falling off at. Tough enough that you can’t just casual your way through them, but not something so impossible to kill you have to abuse gimmick or niches in order to survive against and kill.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

19 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

when there's nothing to do, there is balance talks

Agreed, and that's when they should walk away for a while.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

19 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Huh.

If someone wants the power fantasy, and someone else wants the tough fight, can they not co-exist at the moment?

I get tough fights all the time. Have to utilize everything I take into a mission to its fullest extent, and even then I sometimes fail

Or is it when it comes down to multiplayer that it’s a problem? 🤔 I could see how power fantasy players and non-power fantasy players could butt heads if they share a mission.

Maybe that calls for finding like-minded individuals. That’d probably be more fun if players could share the experience

I think it boils down to just people mouthing off. Youtubers that talk about it show themselves camping in a spot, utilizing a meta and boring themselves. Then the players who watch said youtuber, copy that youtuber and camp in one spot for hours, exactly following a meta and then wonder why they aren't having a good time. Quite simply, they make their own play-time boring. The game is all about choice, so choose to have fun.

[Loza03]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The game is all about choice, so choose to have fun.

The issue is that the game doesn't reward those choices, on the broad level or the moment-to-moment gameplay.

Broad level, that's been discussed to death. More enemies dead = more loot, etc etc. - that's an issue a lot of games have to contend with. What's more interesting is the micro level, individual encounters with enemies. It's why I've harped on about enemy tracking and health bars in other posts in this thread.

Considering, for a moment, Deep Rock Galactic, which is also a horde shooter PvE game set in randomly-generated dungeons. Its enemy types are primarily melee or mid-range, giving an advantage to players with high mobility such as scout players who can both gain ground for safety and deliver punishment from outside an enemy's effective range in large rooms. However, all enemies can climb up and down walls, the same one all the classes mobility tools are based on (Ziplines have to start and end on solid surfaces, platforms are made on ground, grapples connect and drills make tunnels into walls) meaning that safe positioning is at best ephemeral unless you have crowd management options in place. In addition, most enemies have vulnerable backsides, and are either so squishy that it doesn't matter or slow enough to turn (many big enemies having attack animations that fix them in place) that you can shoot their vulnerable butts quite easily if they're on their own.

Warframe, by contrast, primarily features enemies that are comfortable at all ranges provided the player is sitting still, can't access most areas the player can and track exceptionally well being able to be front-facing and attacking all the time unless CC'd. Even enemies seemingly designed for you to attack from the rear like Bursas or Shield lancers. This means that your only reward for speed is an arbitrary enemy accuracy reduction (which doesn't meaningfully apply to all enemies, especially those with innate AoE), map positioning is either useless since they can hit you anyway, or absurdly effective because enemies can't outmaneuver you if you do find a safe spot, and relative positioning to your opponent is basically non-existent.

This means that this game that's supposedly offering a huge degree of movement freedom isn't offering you any meaningful choices with that movement freedom. Compare that to Deep Rock, where your limited to a slow jog and a jump height shorter than you, and yet good movement is practically a third of what's keeping you alive in any given encounter.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The game is all about choice, so choose to have fun.

Choosing to have fun shouldn't be a choice anyone has to make in a game.

Things should be fun by default, if you have to intentionally go out of your way to find fun in a game there's something wrong with the game.

The reason why people choose to "not have fun" is because as Loza put it:

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The issue is that the game doesn't reward those choices, on the broad level or the moment-to-moment gameplay.

I like to use the Athodai, but using it is less effective at killing than my Pennant by a disturbing degree, I'm not choosing between fun and not fun when I use my Pennant instead, I'm choosing to actually even be remotely effective against anything past level 60.

Things aren't balanced for anything but mind-numbing murder-hallways, and it isn't the responsibility of the players to make the game fun, it is the developer's.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Things aren't balanced for anything but mind-numbing murder-hallways, and it isn't the responsibility of the players to make the game fun, it is the developer's.

Considering the variety of player preferences, is it inaccurate to say that the players and the developers work together on some level?

I get the idea of developer responsibility, but there’s also a glaring concept that feels like it’s being overlooked; developers design what they want, and it’s often on the player to decide if its for them. It feels like just choosing to play a game in the first place is the first example of working together; the developers provide the game, and the player chooses to provide the player.

I saw @Loza03’s post about comparing Warframe and Deep Rock, and there were a lot of good points made in it. Honestly I enjoyed reading it.

I don’t know what to say to the idea that the game doesn’t reward on the micro scale though; I recently had a blast bouncing around one of the larger Orokin tilesets and raining down Staticore shots onto the enemy below, and that was a fight because they weren’t immediately dying and I had to really keep moving to get hit less. And then there was that small story set in the plains that I told in an earlier post. I don’t feel like I’m doing anything wrong, but am I? 😕

Just to be clear, I believe things can always be improved. Sometimes it’s great fun to see players discussing ideas; they may not be game developers, but some of them are pretty damn clever. But I’ve seen players complain about lack of fun, and it feels like they’ve not explored all the options available at the moment.

edit: Some of them downright admit that the game won’t cater to them because of reasons, and it’s like “…Okay, so you’re gonna do… what?”

last edit: Ooh, just thought of something. You know how some games give the player a choice in difficulty? Even Doom has an easy mode

[-CdG-Zilchy]

7 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Steel Path is my favorite thing to do in my playtime. I gimp myself by not abusing shield gating and I die here and there if I don't pay attention. That is good enough for me. Sadly, after 5 missions my fun time ends and the grind starts.

The one thing I would like to see in Warframe are mini bosses like in Diablo. Those mini bosses should be like Acolytes, Stalker or Sentients and have a couple of strong enemies with them where you need at least to be awake or use teamwork to beat them.

I just find it boring, I don't really care for steel essence so it's just not fun for me. I agree mini bosses would spice it up a bit, sadly the Acolytes just don't cut it.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Yay for colorblind people like me. I had to brute force that part.

Oof I feel your pain.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Wow you are by far one of the most elitist up their own -something I can't say here else get on mod's bad side- types I've run across so far. You are by far the type that most pisses me off across all of gaming. You want to call everyone not up to your b.s. tryhard ridiculous idea of gaming as "lazy", like truly get over yourself. You're a quintessential example of someone trying to stroke their own...ego and wanting to lord it over others, because they don't do it like you do or have your priorities in mind. I don't seek challenge or ego boosting, I've taken my sweet time over the 8 years slowly progressing forward and still having fun with it. What isn't fun? Back when Mutalist Ospreys could wipe out a room; getting locked down by Bursas nonstop spawning cause no one can get to an alert. Or let's go truly back in time for me to rage quitting the entire game and coming within a minute of uninstalling cause of getting a mission fail at the very start of the original opening of the game, when there were only 5 revives and enemies could tear into you even in what amounted to a tutorial. Back when we popped out of the cryo to be face to face with Vor and his crew. That isn't fun, it isn't a good approach at all to introducing people to the game nor should it EVER be something returned to; yet I imagine its exactly what tryhard ego-strokers like yourself would want. You CHOSE to build up mods and go for "nuke" builds thus trivializing content, you made that CHOICE. You can sit here and spout about how not doing it is artificial challenge or whatever garbage you want. The fact is that for YOU and YOUR CHOICE that content is weakened, for everyone else its not. Though ones like you rarely give any cares about others and only about your own case. You'd have Warframe turned into Dark Souls 2.0 cause then you'd get your ego boosters, likely to make up for irl.

This is a GAME that is about having FUN and one that tries to allow for EVERYONE to be able to HAVE FUN, while you just want something you can use to boost up your own ego so that you "don't fall asleep". Also DE has indeed made adjustments for "casuals", but they've BEEN chasing "endgame" and so called "challenge" for a while now and nothing has been good enough. Nor would it ever be because whatever they were to come up with within a week there'd be x, y, and z ways to plow through it; cause you people can't just chill and enjoy content. You have to plow through it and trivialize it, then complain cause its no longer difficult and the next one isn't immediate available (cause how dare things like that need time to be thought of, developed, and implemented). Hell just look to Steel Path which is content I likely will never touch, it lasted maybe all of a week or two, most a month before falling into your little "no challenge to it" b.s. Go play Dark Souls or whatever hits your tryhard stroking needs, instead of trying to talk down to/look down on anyone not being a tryhard and instead just enjoying the game. I'll be wanting a new areas, new enemies, new lore for THIS game to enjoy, while making my way at my own pace through the content of the game and having fun with it.

You may find this shocking but I actually don't care if you don"t like me or if i piss you off because players like you ruin the game for players like me. That's the nature of hardcore/tryhard(if you wish to call it that) vs casual gamers. That simply means we will never agree and contrary to popular belief you don't have to get along with everyone you ever cross paths with in life. Given that you have zero impact on my day to day life kindly keep on hating me. This forum has an ignore option, I suggest you use it.

You also seem to have basically ignored everything I said(so you're on the right track to using ignore option). I'm not sure what's so terrible about wanting the game to be challenging, perhaps you wouldn't be able to watch your Netflix at the same time? You said one thing in your entire rubbish post that was correct. This is a GAME and it's about HAVING FUN. But apparently you having fun is more important than me enjoying the game as well ie I want a challenge and currently don't have one. So perhaps with that selfish point of view you have you're up yourself as well? Food for thought precious, have a nice day now.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Choosing to have fun shouldn't be a choice anyone has to make in a game.

Things should be fun by default, if you have to intentionally go out of your way to find fun in a game there's something wrong with the game.

The reason why people choose to "not have fun" is because as Loza put it:

I like to use the Athodai, but using it is less effective at killing than my Pennant by a disturbing degree, I'm not choosing between fun and not fun when I use my Pennant instead, I'm choosing to actually even be remotely effective against anything past level 60.

Things aren't balanced for anything but mind-numbing murder-hallways, and it isn't the responsibility of the players to make the game fun, it is the developer's.

True but keep in mind that long time players, who have clocked in thousands of hours, really should not be talking "as loudly" about devs needing to keep them having fun. This game's "portfolio" is more diversified than perhaps any other game made and DE has the data that tells them which direction to go. If you've earned your way to being highly skilled and have collected almost all of the rewards, then congrats and take pride in your hard on, very long journey to the ultimate power fantasy.

Here's where I feel the problem lies: Which one of us here deserves their version of fun the most? The answer is simple: not the multi thousand hour, end game seeking veterans. Why? Because we don't want to give up anything (Warframe 2), we don't want nerfs and balancing (although some claim we do), we want something to force us to use meta setups (we got Arbi, big bosses and SP) and we want more stuff that would eventually trivialize everything we originally asked for just to repeat the cycle. Most importantly though, this all has to have "meaningful rewards", whatever the heck that means. We need to take a back seat and let other challenging games fulfill that role, at least for now. 

 

 

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Which one of us here deserves their version of fun the most?

...Nobody if it comes down to a question of "deserving" the ability to have fun.

I'm sorry but the moment fun becomes something that somebody needs to be deemed "deserving" of is when the discussion has crossed over into sanctimonious territory.

So yes, if it comes down to such a shallow thing as who "deserves" to be able to have fun, I'd rather Warframe shut down forever with no sequel or reboot than have it devolve into such things.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

26 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...Nobody if it comes down to a question of "deserving" the ability to have fun.

I'm sorry but the moment fun becomes something that somebody needs to be deemed "deserving" of is when the discussion has crossed over into sanctimonious territory.

So yes, if it comes down to such a shallow thing as who "deserves" to be able to have fun, I'd rather Warframe shut down forever with no sequel or reboot than have it devolve into such things.

It shouldn't be deserved as I attempted to explain to that dullard that wrote me a vitriolic essay. It's a game and everybody should be enjoying it. The game should make a conscious effort to appeal to players of all types and skill level and it doesn't. If players aren't having fun they won't play, simple as that really. People don't seem to realise that fun is subjective amd everybody has fun in different ways.

[(NSW)Greybones]

*deleted. Gonna see where this goes*

[Kraethius]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Because we don't want to give up anything (Warframe 2), we don't want nerfs and balancing (although some claim we do)

I most certainly want balancing, and I feel we need nerfs to reach that goal. I'm in the boat where the only challenge comes from using off-meta frames with weird builds. I dread doing anything in the normal starchart because it bores me to tears with the pitiful amount of wet-paper spawns for solo players.

Yet I still want nerfs, not content designed for my power level. The scale of numbers in the game right now is just too wide to balance in any meaningful way. Either it's completely trivial for high-end players, or almost impossible for others. That's not a healthy ecosystem for a video game.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

18 minutes ago, Kraethius said:

I most certainly want balancing, and I feel we need nerfs to reach that goal. I'm in the boat where the only challenge comes from using off-meta frames with weird builds. I dread doing anything in the normal starchart because it bores me to tears with the pitiful amount of wet-paper spawns for solo players.

Yet I still want nerfs, not content designed for my power level. The scale of numbers in the game right now is just too wide to balance in any meaningful way. Either it's completely trivial for high-end players, or almost impossible for others. That's not a healthy ecosystem for a video game.

I'm also perfectly fine with being nerfed. All I want is content that is challenging while I'm still fully geared.

[(NSW)Greybones]

27 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I'm also perfectly fine with being nerfed. All I want is content that is challenging while I'm still fully geared.

Does everyone want the same?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

31 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Does everyone want the same?

No and that's the conundrum. That's what I've been saying constantly this entire thread. Fun is subjective, how each player has fun is different. The problem however lies in that DE only currently caters to one type of player's idea of fun(the vocal majority) and says "screw the rest". When they should infact be attempting to make fun content for all types.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Let me put it another way that maybe you'll understand. Right now, 100% of the content in the game is designed to cater to casuala who want the game to be easy. People will argue that Steel Path isn't but within a week or two of playing and with a little bit of plat a player could easily clear the missions or hey, they can just go public and get carried(one of the biggest problems the game has btw). 

So do you think that it's awfully selfish of me to want just 1% of the game's content to cater to my idea of fun without having the casuals cry that it's not fair that they can't do it and get the rewards and they're being locked out of content blah blah etc? Because that's what happens EVERY FRIGGIN TIME.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

No and that's the conundrum. That's what I've been saying constantly this entire thread. Fun is subjective, how each player has fun is different. The problem however lies in that DE only currently caters to one type of player's idea of fun(the vocal majority) and says "screw the rest". When they should infact be attempting to make fun content for all types.

How does DE make content for your fully geared that gives you a challenge, but if others were just as fully geared, they’d find it to their liking?

Are the fights different or what?

[lowgrav]

as far as i see it people complaining about balance is just more power creep

people want tougher missions but they also want something worth the time to do said missions and we all saw the complaints every open world and content island about new resauses to farm so people want a reward that is not just boosted amounts of nano spores but will rage if the reward is a new weapon or frame that is below their weapon power eg. if you did a no mod mission like the grendel ones but the item it droped was the stug the below avarage MR fodder that not even a rivin mod can save

its like that for steel path sure the enimys are not smarter but they take more to kill and i can never find any random squads apart from the steel essense farming nodes

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

How does DE make content for your fully geared that gives you a challenge, but if others were just as fully geared, they’d find it to their liking?

Are the fights different or what?

Well for a start here's a scenario for you. Firstly you make the content fun and you make sure that any rewards from it are purely cosmetic ie they do not make a player objectively better than people who can't do the content. Let's say for example for those who like speed, movement skills etc we make a boss where you pursue him in your warframe in some parts, operater in other parts(with the other disabled), challenging both sets of movement and requiring fast skills by adding things like barriers that require you to shoot buttons with your amp. Oh also if you fall you reset at the beginning, the floor is lava styles. That sort of thing. But hey I'm not a game designer what would I know. And that's the point, they SHOULD KNOW HOW.