Big oversight from a Game-Design perspective ... LACK OF OBJECTIVES in pvp !

[Doraz_]

Think DE, Think !

All of your pvp mode lack objectives that funnel players in specific areas and/or force the action to move somewhere else !!!

(energy orbs do not count, as you can be sniped,blinded and rad procced as you take ... ALL players i ever fought against ignore those )

The fix that i call for is to transform or ( to not cause distress to the 4 tennos that play it ) introduce a new mode and thank me later:

 

short explenation: players are required to complete 3 objectives in order to win the game.

examples: defend an area .... push a payload or protect an NPC ... fight while the arena is filled with toxic gas only for one specific bubble of safety that the tenno fight for ...

 

each objective unlocks the next one. this keeps the action moving and prevents ( like current pvp ) some rooms in becoming camping spots for whoever is in the lead.

this way, stories can be constructed around each match ... so it can be a random fight like lunaro ... or a recreation of a mission in lunaro ... or an actual mission like Destiny's strikes.

 

Only ... it will be even better than DESTINY's STRIKES !!! because the action is all compact, players will spawn closer to objectives if defeated, so the game doesn't become a "press W" simulator-

I don't have much time anymore, having my own stuff to think about, but I truly think this is the direction Conclave needs to go.

 

Compact and immediate ... action packed ... objective based fights ... in tune with what Warframe as a service based game is supposed to be.

 

[what about capture the caephalon???*

again ... Think DE, think (lol)... that mode has no incentive other than camping and players just run around, hoping to find the one target flying at the speed of light ... that is probably already at the base ready to score the point.

 

Might ... clean it up later ....

 

Regarding the "add npc so it's like gambit having pve element" ... copy Titanfall 2 instead !!! But do this:

- bots can be divided in 3 cathegories: few groups of weak fodder, 1 elite group of fighters, 1 Big Boss like enemy

- These will be entities that players can spawn or even choose one at the beguinning of ,match, maybe this will add a level of strategy to this

- they are simple enemies to give players that are not engaged with other players or are too bad at the game to still contribute to the fight and have fun

 

last, but i'll probably add something later

do NOT re-use maps ... it's shameful ( i'm exagerating of course :D) ... I'd rather you just pay me in tomato sauce and I'll "bake" out the oven some maps that are actually enjoyable to fight and bullet jump in ...

 

EDIT:

added some images for the moment

 

[Doraz_]

Lore-wise, the thing that I would write having procastinated for an exam that is now about 5 minutes away is the following:

 

The Perrin Sequence organizes games where tennos and other factions compete for profit and rewards!

 

They claim to do this as a "friendly competition" but they are corpus in heart, and still love profit, thus using these matches to allow speculations on those.

 

Squad-Link !!! Players in this special relay can see the active matches and bet credits on either of those teams :D

(can give other rewards as well)

 

The perrin sequence basically creates simulationa for the tennos and other factions to fight in (infested are captured, controversy and funny factor as they could infect everyone ... but no one cares as they are too focused on betting! xD).

 

Players can bet at the start of the match on themselves if they thibk they will win.

 

Before and during the match, they can "cheat" by paying the corpus and other factions to put a bonus/malus in the field.

(corpus hack the robots on the eneny team for a time to make them fight the other team, grineer hide resources for you in the field, eccetera )

 

 

plz, forgive the spelling and syntax ... my first drafts are always rough and embarassing >_<

[Uhkretor]

Spoiler

... Its as if Killing other players and collecting the dropped Oro to win isn't an objective to begin with...

[Doraz_]

6 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

  Hide contents

... Its as if Killing other players and collecting the dropped Oro to win isn't an objective to begin with...

Thanks! I in turn made an "oversight" about that issue ...

 

That is an INSANE mechanic.

 

It destroys the freedom of expressing yourself in the engagement strategy, and instead heavily rewards melee, as you can rob the oro of other players.

 

from 2016, when i started playing, I always considered my strategy and execution far more valuable as in maningful and rewarding than collecting an orange orb that I had no place in creating/earning it..

 

Oro can remain, in the pvp only mode, but to me it's now clear as the Unum that the mode i'm talking about must reward objective time, actual damage dealt and time survived (to punish throwing and killing both you and the enemy with an AOE granade for instance)

[Stormdragon]

On 2021-05-16 at 11:37 AM, Doraz_ said:

Might ... clean it up later ....

Not intending to be mean or anything, but you should flesh out the idea and clean it up before posting, not after.

With that in mind, for the objectives you propose (mainly defense ones) it should be something that lives up to the mobility system instead of making the players stay somewhere; that's the only thing that Cephalon Capture gets right (imo), and the closest similar thing i can see already in the game is The Index (a pvp version of it could be fun IF done right).

Using hazards to group players in smaller areas sounds suspiciously familiar, and keeping in mind the sort of game it comes from, we'd need huge maps (at least Plains sized) for the bubble to have a decent size. However, the only maps big enough for it are too open for high mobility fights (except for a few areas, most if not all of them indoors), and i REALLY doubt that DE would make a map that big with a PvP focus; to see the Telos Boltace removed from conclave sounds a lot more likely than seeing them make a huge open world map for PvP and that bug has already been in the game for around 1.5 years.

On 2021-05-16 at 11:37 AM, Doraz_ said:

the 4 tennos that play it

Adding a meme commonly used to outright mock your target audience is an easy way to reduce the quality of your feedback.

[Tyreaus]

On one hand, encouraging static positioning can mix things up somewhat. Players are at an advantage at high mobility, and while the impaired status sort-of counteracts that, it's probably a little more engaging and entertaining for the game to encourage lower mobility, rather than for it to be thrust upon the player. _{It's something different than leaping about nigh-constantly}

(Though, for that, I'd just say "why not copy Interception over wholesale?" Or, well, Defense, with a few small tweaks. Or Mobile Defense. In general, lot of PvE mission types could probably get adjusted for PvP if you're clever with spawn positions. And it's easy for us to come up with the story of "practising for the real thing". That's probably your best "bang for your buck" solution.)

On the other hand, we have a sort-of objective-based mode in CTC, but it doesn't get the same airtime as Annihilation. Any objective-based mode is going to run head-first into that problem, no matter the exact style. Overall, people would rather just get to the meat-and-potatoes of killing - all the memes about playing the objective and moving the f%^king payload tell us as much.

[Doraz_]

1 hour ago, Stormdragon said:

Not intending to be mean or anything, but you should flesh out the idea and clean it up before posting, not after.

With that in mind, for the objectives you propose (mainly defense ones) it should be something that lives up to the mobility system instead of making the players stay somewhere; that's the only thing that Cephalon Capture gets right (imo), and the closest similar thing i can see already in the game is The Index (a pvp version of it could be fun IF done right).

Using hazards to group players in smaller areas sounds suspiciously familiar, and keeping in mind the sort of game it comes from, we'd need huge maps (at least Plains sized) for the bubble to have a decent size. However, the only maps big enough for it are too open for high mobility fights (except for a few areas, most if not all of them indoors), and i REALLY doubt that DE would make a map that big with a PvP focus; to see the Telos Boltace removed from conclave sounds a lot more likely than seeing them make a huge open world map for PvP and that bug has already been in the game for around 1.5 years.

 

Using memes is a quick way to reduce the value of your feedback, specially when one of them is commonly used to outright mock your target audience.

You'll excuse me that i'll still leave this unfiniahed for a while, but at least with me you CAN be mean :3

 

Your points are all valid and intersting, and i shared my thoughts hoping to hear even totaly opposite opinions, so that ME (primarely) but anyone who reads this can come to a consensus.

 

I'm thinking on actually curating this with images and even proto-gameplay (is that even a word?) but that's such an Herculean effort in my case.

[Doraz_]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

On one hand, encouraging static positioning can mix things up somewhat. Players are at an advantage at high mobility, and while the impaired status sort-of counteracts that, it's probably a little more engaging and entertaining for the game to encourage lower mobility, rather than for it to be thrust upon the player. _{It's something different than leaping about nigh-constantly}

(Though, for that, I'd just say "why not copy Interception over wholesale?" Or, well, Defense, with a few small tweaks. Or Mobile Defense. In general, lot of PvE mission types could probably get adjusted for PvP if you're clever with spawn positions. And it's easy for us to come up with the story of "practising for the real thing". That's probably your best "bang for your buck" solution.)

On the other hand, we have a sort-of objective-based mode in CTC, but it doesn't get the same airtime as Annihilation. Any objective-based mode is going to run head-first into that problem, no matter the exact style. Overall, people would rather just get to the meat-and-potatoes of killing - all the memes about playing the objective and moving the f%^king payload tell us as much.

Now you made me think about the contrast between making two teams play against each other but rewarding completely different playstiles!

 

More like Rainbow six rather than Paladins ... one team will have to creatively use their mobility, while the other one must use a more careful playstile ...

 

that can even be a systemic balancing factor! ... like if you chose to run a warframe that is very mobile but squishy, you mught dominate in the first half, but be at a disadvantage in the second one.

[Doraz_]

Ok, did some drawing to illustrate the basic gameplay

Here you choose over new experience or old pvp modes

 

Landing ... Relay has domes where matches take place ...

 

COOPERATIVE GAMES

These will be where players that dislike competing with others, orruining other people games or want a similar experience to Warframe can play.

Basically, you can think them as reaids or Destiny Strikes ... but it is different in 2 ways:

- The setting is consistent with lore ... there are simulations of battles that the tenno go through it for training and spectacle.

- They are NOT the same every time! map elements, paths, events ... eavh game has a different comination of those, so that the players must adapt. From minor to major changes like enemies having different buffs, to the map changing and different tiles being generated to the mission itself ( like Metal Slug games) having different paths that can be taken.

 

 

COMPETITIVE GAMES

These will have less npc enemies, so an higher number of players can be reached.

A "Vote next Map" between matches can be sufficient to give the chance to players to not play the maps that they find boring or unbalanced.

Here, those "random events" can be triggered by players as favors to the various factions of the Warframe World, either simply spawning resources, sabotaging enemies, modifying the map to your favor, and so on.

 

This is a big project, and DE has bigger fishes to fry at the moment ... but in the eventuality that pvp gets some love, I would be sad if it ended up being the usual conclave that people CAN enjoy, i mean no disrespect, but that the majority of people avoid.

[Doraz_]

I remember people talking about k-drive races and nechramech pvp, so those modes can have a place here as well.

 

This "island" approach has another positive in this regard ...

 

Maps can be built to be expereinced SOLELY on k-drives!

 

Optimization goes litterally through the roof ( cuz it would be inaccesible due to warframes not being used, other than making them rag-doll when crashing xD)

 

Kdrives curently suffer from some inconsistency, as the maps are built for warframes ... coding and elements that enable k-drives come later .... but in this case, with map specifically built for those alone, it might just work.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

But you do have an objective, the same as every other PVP mode out there: KILL THE ENEMY!

[Doraz_]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

But you do have an objective, the same as every other PVP mode out there: KILL THE ENEMY!

no no ... i mean objective that like an invisible hand, controls the action ...

 

think of CS:GO ... how everything "magic" let's say abou that gamd springs from a team having to bomb the other team's site.

 

The game is maybe the most boring and pointless in history ... but that structure makes what little content there is in that game practically endless.

(i'm exhagerating a bit of course, but the messagw is there)

 

honestly, i think that for all my pointless ramblings, a team of top secret social scientist have already written pages and conducted experiments on un-willing and willing subjects for Overwatch 2.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

30 minutes ago, Doraz_ said:

... but that structure makes what little content there is in that game practically endless.

Nope, that is all thanks to the loot boxes and money attached to those that gets the credit.

[Doraz_]

First draft of environment

The design would incorporate Plants/trees, watefall and corpus materials.

 

 

Left side: why multiple kiosks (') as mision start?

because that way people can go to less populated ones, just to reduce visual noise ( not another baro, and like many other NPC vendors in WF and other games )

 

Right side:

I think it's better to separate nechramech combat, k drives and normal PVP

 

normal pvp can be organized by perrin NPC, nechramechs with Father that makes an appeareance as the manager, and the vent kids having convinced the head of Perrin Syndicate to let them play ( joke about them guilt tripping him emotionally into making all of this happen, despite being so expensive xD)

 

Betting borad:

This is a system that ( hopefully ) can be built with confidence after "MR 30 blessing" and " scarlet spear squad link " ... here tennos just select to bet on teams that are currently doing a pvp match, so that they can win some resources. It's a time-killer if you are waiting for your friends to get ready and lore wise would be cool as all hek to see in action.

 

PROBLEMS WITH PERFORMANCE:

populated areas like these can be hard on performance ... so, an easy fix would be to separate these areas either by vertical elevator or ramps ( like the one in grineer asteroid tileset) and instead of rendering the entire scene, what is rendered is a low poly version of that geometry and animated low poly or even billboard versions of NPCs.

 

the skybox would consist in other platforms just like these, but only as 2D animations ... similar to current Relays.

 

[Loza03]

Honestly, I think this is worth consideration purely due to the amount of effort put in. I don't recall the last time somebody actually went so far as to produce a 3D mockup, even a relatively simple one. Even on the really big suggestion threads.

[Doraz_]

22 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Honestly, I think this is worth consideration purely due to the amount of effort put in. I don't recall the last time somebody actually went so far as to produce a 3D mockup, even a relatively simple one. Even on the really big suggestion threads.

FIRST CHANGE!

 

I realized navigation could become bothersome, and too much space was being utilized to no real benefit ( could be nice to look at, but risks causing bad performance and frustration)

 

So

A) Ships entrance: i know it could be a nice optimization to divide each area ... but i really want eerything to be visible and animated at once :D

my "grineer-level" solution would be to make each area connected by moving platforms that the tenno ride ( no animation needed, just movement constricted and confined to the platform's area while moving) and have a material/shader that animates with fake noise motion a photo of that area taken from the player's current room.

 

b) Removed one "start-mission" point ... instead, put an image of a preview of each map/challange" like the banner of Movies !!! :D I LOVE that!

This is funny to me, as it's like us in the real world going to the theater with friends, while tenno do somilar stuff to pass the time, just they fight instead for fun.

 

c) Rmoved betting deticated room ... this is a gimik, so it makes more sense that is is given less space.

Thus, it will be just 2 consoles  on the two sides of the statue/ funatins ( like scarlet spear ) that the tenno can interact with and see the current matches, and " I N V E S T " to their heart " D E S I R E "

[Doraz_]

Ah, and should be a given ... given Warframe's nature ... but in my eyes we "need" a relay for this as this would accomplish 2 things:

 

a) players need a place to show of their fashion and (in case there is a score to compete in) their accomplishments

 

b) It's just more enjoyable. current Conclave is just a menu on a screen and being teleported to "somewhere". Here, the map can be decorated in case of special occasions. AND you can fill it of fun stuff ...

 

like a Rhino and Hildrin NPCs that test ans boast each other's strenght, with hildrin winning xD ... or octavia and nehza dancing to the music with the vent-kids, while nekros is waiting impatiently for them to go xD

 

Animated NPCs on a loop, to give the space more life.

[rockscl]

En 17/5/2021 a las 8:27, Doraz_ dijo:

 

 

 

[Doraz_]

2 hours ago, rockscl said:

 

 

xD !!!

 

yeah ... i seem hardwired to draw them even if don't want to

It's my watermark I guess.

 

If a miracle happens I'll be posting game modes next week, but no promises ;-;

[Doraz_]

oof ... i am too busy with my own things, that require structural change and attention to detail that I can't do this as well in a reasonable time, or better I will eventually so it but in a very long time.

 

In any case, one of the pvp and story co-op missions rooms i was meaning to create is a shifting room (like dishonored 2 mansion)

 

Picture this:

pvp= the room would change during a match, starting with nothing, then teleporting/sliding in from the wall an acid grineer tile (no roof) and then a lava vulcanic hazzard AND THEN near it a corpus platform with corpus units and an ambulas dropped from an helicopter.

 

pve= the story is told as if tennos were moving, but instead of changing tile it's room itself that changes.

 

Picture mass effect 3 simulation games ... but with a story similar to a destiny 2 raid and the performance and efficency that Warframe's engine can provide.

 

This (at least for me) would be a godsend script-wise, as the loading of ne areas can be anticipated and done in async, not much texturing and mapping required cuz it's limited to the size of the arena, and there is the possibility ofcpermutation, as object/tile spawned can be random every time.

 

 

Secondly, this would REALLY be a problem for me cuz I just rely on GC to do its job, but even if all Warframe assets being available in a sibgle gane mode is awesome ... that risks being a problem for VRAM if textures aren't unloaded.

 

This gamemode would have a seed that dictates "what" spawns "where" so it might be very easy.

 

I say that cuz in other WF gamemodes, the same enemies come all the time, so they are assumed to be always in memory, and acolytes and liches do NOT seem to work on both prediction of spawing and async, making my system stutter every time they appear in mission.