Why nerf subsumed abilities instead of just giving us other abilities?

[TrepMaul]

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't know; nearly all the nerfed subsumes--including Roar--seem pretty popular.  I think there's your answer.  DE figured we'd want them anyway, and they were dead right. 

As far as adding more choices, I suppose there's a few I'd like to see.  But I'm not crazy about the idea  of adding another choice from every single Frame.

So I'd rather see more Helminth-specific abilities.

 

Not another choice from every frame. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant which would you want instead of the current option. Like instead of molt on Saryn I'd like anything else.

[TrepMaul]

7 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

Stomp is disqualified from the get go, as mentioned by others. Iron Skin is also obviously disqualified, as that is kind of Rhino's whole deal.

I would've liked to see Charge. It's more interesting, and it could work really well with for instance Frost or Atlas to build armor, synergizing with their other abilities.

Roar is good, I suppose, but it's also boring.

In the same vein I'm annoyed about Mirage's subsumed ability. She gives out her buff, but it could've been the much cooler item bomb ability. Imagine the Vauban interaction! Vacuuming up every ammo box in the room and then blowing them all up. But no. Damage buff go brrrr.

 

On that note, I don't like that a bunch of the subsumed abilities are damage buffs from various frames. It certainly could have been other abilities on most of them.

[TrepMaul]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Putting aside how Rhino Stomp is a 4 ability and thus was never on the cards for being included as a subsumable ability in the first place, damage buff abilities like Roar were included to give players access to that sort of ability, then nerfed because they're head and shoulders above every other option. Even with its nerf, Roar is still one of the most, if not the most infused ability in the system, so ultimately most people still decided it was worth picking over about fifty other options.

One of the inherent problems with the Helminth system is that it clashes with our warframes' tiering of abilities: abilities on our 2 are meant to be stronger than abilities on our 1, and weaker than abilities on our 3, which creates a baseline power imbalance when choosing which ability to infuse, and which ability to replace. Adding to that, the balance between different abilities is wildly off, which is why so many Helminth abilities aren't considered worth the trouble. Because of this, while I think it's essential to nerf some Helminth abilities for balance purposes, for that same reason I think it is also important to buff otherwise underwhelming abilities when infusing them, as they otherwise will never see play. In fact, this could be a good opportunity to do a pass on some existing warframes and buff some parts of their kit, so that they too can enjoy a more fully functional set of abilities.

I really like the idea of buffing the other abilities so their useful on more frames. and maybe just buff them on the actual frame as well in that case.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, TrepMaul said:

Not another choice from every frame. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant which would you want instead of the current option. Like instead of molt on Saryn I'd like anything else.

I think most of the choices I'd replace like Decoy and Tempest Barrage are just flawed to begin with.  So they could instead be addressed with improvements to the base abilities.    A better subsume is just a happy side-effect.

I wouldn't replace Roar at this point, even though I don't use it on anybody.  I can see the appeal of Stomp, but I think that can be addressed with a new Helminth ability that has similar functions.

[quxier]

16 hours ago, TrepMaul said:

I've heard a LOT of criticism from friends, randoms, and people in region about both the choices of subsumed abilities as well as nerfing the ones DE chose. Why did they choose them if they didn't want us to have them? I felt like the idea was to create interesting builds, but some of the subsumed abilities aren't good, and so NEVER get used by anyone. That's not very fun for the players.

Letting us use "buff abilities" (Roar, Mirage's) won't create "interesting" builds.

I guess they created game where enemies have lot of HP so you need some buffs... hence Roar & co.

And even weaker version might be usable.

16 hours ago, TrepMaul said:

Do y'all have any subsumed abilities that you would replace if given the choice?

Maybe not replacing but adding. Having many alternatives are nice. There are some stuffs that doesn't exist to infuse. For example clones of frame (Mirage or Wukong).

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Letting us use "buff abilities" (Roar, Mirage's) won't create "interesting" builds.

I guess they created game where enemies have lot of HP so you need some buffs... hence Roar & co.

And even weaker version might be usable.

Maybe not replacing but adding. Having many alternatives are nice. There are some stuffs that doesn't exist to infuse. For example clones of frame (Mirage or Wukong).

*laughs in decoy*

[quxier]

37 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

*laughs in decoy*

"laughs in... " what? I haven't seen it. It disappeared so fast. /sarcasm

I mean proper clone of frame. Decoy is just few second guy with "pew pew" gun in lots of cases.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

"laughs in... " what? I haven't seen it. It disappeared so fast. /sarcasm

I mean proper clone of frame. Decoy is just few second guy with "pew pew" gun in lots of cases.

I agree. Personally Ive had the pipe dream of decoy duplicating ability casts like wisps Wil-o-wisp or wuclone, but making it so any frame could use it, and of course removing its health bar

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I mainly just do meme builds with helminth or quality of life.  Like I put that infested agility or whatever on excal for a bit to make him faster.

radial blind on gara to make her extra shiny (i'll probably remove it now that I went neg range).

I did do the youtube suggested silence build for some frames for leveling and it worked I guess.

I'll likely still try roar on my nezha prime for lich hunting.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

15 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

In the same vein I'm annoyed about Mirage's subsumed ability. She gives out her buff, but it could've been the much cooler item bomb ability. Imagine the Vauban interaction! Vacuuming up every ammo box in the room and then blowing them all up. But no. Damage buff go brrrr.

I was hoping for SoH to be her subsumed ability so bad! I had a Nekros build in mind, and some thoughts about Hydroid and Khora, but then it was shown to be Eclipse, a dysfunctional buff ability that gets overshadowed by Roar anyway, since Roar is more consistent, affects all damage, and doesn't need an augment to buff your allies.

[quxier]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

I agree. Personally Ive had the pipe dream of decoy duplicating ability casts like wisps Wil-o-wisp or wuclone, but making it so any frame could use it, and of course removing its health bar

I wanted something else from Decoy:

but... oh, well. Whatever.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Personally Ive had the pipe dream of decoy duplicating ability casts

On Loki it would probably just cast Invisibility, lol.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

On Loki it would probably just cast Invisibility, lol.

Tbf I was moreso thinking with disarm <_< 

[Tiltskillet]

36 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Tbf I was moreso thinking with disarm <_< 

While you're coming up with ways to make it better--which is easy, you slacker! 😉--I'm trying to make it worse.   Which is definitely not easy. 

But an Invisible Decoy?  Yes, I think I've done it.

 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

57 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

While you're coming up with ways to make it better--which is easy, you slacker! 😉--I'm trying to make it worse.   Which is definitely not easy. 

But an Invisible Decoy?  Yes, I think I've done it.

 

*laughs in switch teleport*

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

*laughs in switch teleport*

Might be useful unless it cast it on players. 

Which of course it would.