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So let's do a little survey on numbers for this game


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Seeing how often we see challenge/balance thread in this forum, I want to see if we can get some hint for numbers to make way for balance and some challenge to not being one sided.

If you feel there needs some change in the game, you can give your answer using this link

Not only that, share this with another Tenno you know so we can get an accurate result to back up the feedback

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Answered, but just as a note, those first 2 questions aren't something that can just be answered off the cuff in a realistic manner, there's too many variables for those questions to be answered in a meaningful way.

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3 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how often we see challenge/balance thread in this forum

There's a well known secret around these parts. Those suggestion threads? they're just illusions that makes the forum looks liberal.

But once you actually read the comments, generally they're just dismissals.

And since everybody and their mothers believe that they have the miracle solution for warframe and keep spawning thousands of those suggestion threads, DE have stop listened to this forum a long time ago.

but hey.. if it make you feel happy, don't let me stop you.

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11 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

There's a well known secret around these parts. Those suggestion threads? they're just illusions that makes the forum looks liberal.

But once you actually read the comments, generally they're just dismissals.

And since everybody and their mothers believe that they have the miracle solution for warframe and keep spawning thousands of those suggestion threads, DE have stop listened to this forum a long time ago.

but hey.. if it make you feel happy, don't let me stop you.

You can’t fault people for trying to do right by DE, and honestly, with how abysmal some of the stuff DE releases is, I genuinely think they should be listening to the community more.

Like, frames are being designed by people who’ve clearly never got past the tutorial, and end up having absolutely no place in the game. The ones that are good, feel almost accidental.

Even a player that is objectively wrong about something is still useful feedback, even if you do have to find the fire from the smoke.

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22 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

There's a well known secret around these parts. Those suggestion threads? they're just illusions that makes the forum looks liberal.

But once you actually read the comments, generally they're just dismissals.

And since everybody and their mothers believe that they have the miracle solution for warframe and keep spawning thousands of those suggestion threads, DE have stop listened to this forum a long time ago.

but hey.. if it make you feel happy, don't let me stop you.

This is mostly exaggerated.

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57 minutes ago, (XBOX)Holy Reaper3076 said:

This is mostly exaggerated.

True.

But when was the last time you see older members with multiple thousands of posts and community points make a suggestion thread?

Generally speaking, they should be the ones to have the most opinions about the game, and subjectivity better solutions because of their experiences. But they've all been here long enough to see what actually happens to suggestions threads.

Spare a moment to see the OPs profiles, and the replies, the truth will reveal itself.

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1 hour ago, Soy77 said:

And since everybody and their mothers believe that they have the miracle solution for warframe and keep spawning thousands of those suggestion threads, DE have stop listened to this forum a long time ago.

Exactly. No one likes a backseat developer. This is why I can't stand Youtubers like LifeofRio, Gaz TTV and Brozime who think they're the authority on Warframe when in reality they're just toxic opinionated neckbearded shmucks.

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1 hour ago, Soy77 said:

True.

But when was the last time you see older members with multiple thousands of posts and community points make a suggestion thread?

Generally speaking, they should be the ones to have the most opinions about the game, and subjectivity better solutions because of their experiences. But they've all been here long enough to see what actually happens to suggestions threads.

Spare a moment to see the OPs profiles, and the replies, the truth will reveal itself.

I still make them :sadcry:

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A lot of these questions feel a bit one-sided. Player power is too much, but enemy power is also still in a bad place. It's just less noticeable because of how powerful players are.

 

I've been told a few times that 'armour isn't a problem because there's ways to bypass it', ignoring the fact that as long as armour exists in its current form, the ways to bypass it will be numerically better than the ways that don't. Nerfing slash to not bypass armour alone doesn't solve the problem of one damage of the physical trio being massively better, it just takes away one of the ways we've been able to ignore a different, deeper issue.

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3 hours ago, Soy77 said:

And since everybody and their mothers believe that they have the miracle solution for warframe and keep spawning thousands of those suggestion threads, DE have stop listened to this forum a long time ago.

My only suggestion to DE is doing something they already tend to do. Which is looking at other games for inspiration. Warframe currently struggles to give the player worthwhile engaging content, a simple thing they can do is peek at Outriders and see that it is possible to get a good balance between guns, mods and devastating abilities while still maintaining pressure from the enemies towards the playe and keeping the power fantasy intactr. The game has map clearing ability options, good gun builds and even strong melee, it still manages to have mobs that arent dumber than a brick, wearing paper armor and having vitality worse than a paliative care patient. Elites are also elites etc.

Outriders is certainly not a perfect game, but it strikes really good gameplay balance at the higher levels and still makes you feel like a superpowered living WMD. It also rewards proper play, headshots make a massive difference since you dont have 200% chance to crit wherever and you dont have crit damage that multiplies your damage 5 times over or more. Just as you are rewarded by good aiming when utilizing DD-Proc mods, making it worthwhile to line mobs up correctly to cover as many as possible with pellets from shotguns, since each single enemy hit allows for a proc instance from those mods even if the mod itself has a cooldown between procs. And this can be devastating if you run an AoE based DD proc mod, since you might get 5 procs of in a crowd of heavy enemies, meaning each one is hit by 5 instances of damage from said proc. It also opens up alot of build diversity, since these mods are great on classes that rely on their skills and "magic power", because their guns are weak, but they arent so hot on builds that are focused on weapons since most of those rely on ammunition sustain for a certain type of ammo skill and if you use the DD procs chances are you wont get weapon kills which means the ammo sustain mods wont replenish the ammo you need.

So there is alot to think about when you build your character in that game, which gives it a further layer that really isnt present in WF, but something WF could really use. Right now building frames and weapons pretty much come down to the same and it all annihilates the enemy without much thought.

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4 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You can’t fault people for trying to do right by DE, and honestly, with how abysmal some of the stuff DE releases is, I genuinely think they should be listening to the community more.

Like, frames are being designed by people who’ve clearly never got past the tutorial, and end up having absolutely no place in the game. The ones that are good, feel almost accidental.

Even a player that is objectively wrong about something is still useful feedback, even if you do have to find the fire from the smoke.

I'm not blaming people even those who writes two pages of essays explaining why necramechs need cupholders.

Just warning the others -mostly newer forum members, that most people in this forum are sick of two pages of essays explaining why necramechs need cupholders.

What they want to do with that information is up to them. Again, don't let me stop you.

3 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Exactly. No one likes a backseat developer. This is why I can't stand Youtubers like LifeofRio, Gaz TTV and Brozime who think they're the authority on Warframe when in reality they're just toxic opinionated neckbearded shmucks.

Preach it, brother.

I also resent the fact that DE listens to these people instead of just ask us directly by doing surveys or polls.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I still make them :sadcry:

My condolences.

But hey, some warframe players collect floofs, some warframe players do speedruns. If you like making suggestion threads, more power to you. Different strokes for different blokes.

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

My only suggestion to DE is doing something they already tend to do. Which is looking at other games for inspiration. 

[snip]

Sure. I can support that.

But you know as much if not better than i do, that "i hope warframe can be more like this other cool game that i play" is definitely a genre in this forum.

We've seen people make threads about good bits from other games that warframe could use. Gears of war, god of war, metal gear, ff xiv, sekiro, dark souls, monster hunter, even that one thread that compares warframe to genshin impat.

I believe all of them are sincere. Will it ever happen? We'll get cross play before DE listens to suggestions here (never). But yeah i understand that sometimes we just want to have a good conversation among dissatisfied players.

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21 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Sure. I can support that.

But you know as much if not better than i do, that "i hope warframe can be more like this other cool game that i play" is definitely a genre in this forum.

We've seen people make threads about good bits from other games that warframe could use. Gears of war, god of war, metal gear, ff xiv, sekiro, dark souls, monster hunter, even that one thread that compares warframe to genshin impat.

I believe all of them are sincere. Will it ever happen? We'll get cross play before DE listens to suggestions here (never). But yeah i understand that sometimes we just want to have a good conversation among dissatisfied players.

The change to what Outriders has wouldnt change the core of WF though. It would simply be about numbers and stat limitations. Adding minor mechanical things like CC and interrupt resistance to the more "elite" mobs. Simply things to make the mobs last longer and put more pressure on us. The gameplay of WF would still be the same, without the "preperation" need that Outriders has in order to hit really hard.

What is mostly needed is to shave down critical damage stats severely, so it falls back to a more "normal" system where 50% crit chance is really really high and a 2x crit damage multiplier is amazing. That way the mobs wouldnt need 95% damage reduction from armor, which in the end doesnt even help them survive atm. I cant even recall the last time I stopped to consider that it was a Nox that I just flatlined as I rushed through a map, or the Bombard shooting at me with his nerfgun foam dart while in the highest content available.

WF is currently backwards, since for instance, a low level survival is harder solo than a steel path one, because the lowbie version doesnt have the same density of walking Life Support pinatas as the steel path one. One should in reality expect the steel path version to be harder due to the much much higher density, but it isnt, since it is just more life support potential. Shouldnt it be the otherway around, with higher density in lowbie missions and lower density composed of more durable and lethal mobs in steel path so we need to work for our H2O?

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56 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Sure. I can support that.

But you know as much if not better than i do, that "i hope warframe can be more like this other cool game that i play" is definitely a genre in this forum.

We've seen people make threads about good bits from other games that warframe could use. Gears of war, god of war, metal gear, ff xiv, sekiro, dark souls, monster hunter, even that one thread that compares warframe to genshin impat.

I believe all of them are sincere. Will it ever happen? We'll get cross play before DE listens to suggestions here (never). But yeah i understand that sometimes we just want to have a good conversation among dissatisfied players.

The trick, IMO, is not to just look at what the other cool games do, but why the games do it.

Don't just look at what's been done, understand it. Preferably look at multiple games, including games that did it badly or where it went wrong. Don't just look at Titanfall for advanced mobility, look at Halo 5. People loved Titanfall, but debate around Halo 5's advanced mobility rages on to this day.

How does Rocket Jumping impact TF2 and Pharah affect Overwatch? What needs to be in place on maps for satisfying wall-running? And what does Outriders do to stop itself from falling into the problems Warframe faces, and where does it fail in that respect?

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I don't really get the logic behind some of these questions. The default options for "self damage boost" range from 10% to 90%... but we already boost our weapon damage by 165% with just a single mod (serration). Zephyr just got an aug that boosts her Secondary weapon damage by 500%. That's just how Warframe works. If you're trying to get survey data when all your default answers are wildly below what already in the game, you're probably going to get an overwhelmingly high percentage of write-in results.

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tl;dr; remake your form, in its state it makes no sense

I put lot of text because most questions are absolutely retarded imho so I dared to explain why. About damage reduction, the late game of the game is about stacking 90%dr mechanics on top of each others OR using perma invulnerability mechanics(like playing limbo and living in the rift) OR using shield gating in order to prevent OS. So atm, for players in Steel Path or doing arbis you are looking at 99%+ dr already or better(other mechanics that effectively deal with infinity numbers damage wise)

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11 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't really get the logic behind some of these questions. The default options for "self damage boost" range from 10% to 90%... but we already boost our weapon damage by 165% with just a single mod (serration). Zephyr just got an aug that boosts her Secondary weapon damage by 500%. That's just how Warframe works. If you're trying to get survey data when all your default answers are wildly below what already in the game, you're probably going to get an overwhelmingly high percentage of write-in results.

Okay, self damage boost means abilities that boost your damage like rhino roar or chroma vex armor. I need to word it better, and as you can see, there's a huge gap between those with damage boost to self compared to frames that don't have any or require helminth infusion so if we can narrow it down to maybe double damage at maximum, we can at least predict and set the balance to make things not trivial to some frames while taking too long for the rest

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11 hours ago, Galuf said:

tl;dr; remake your form, in its state it makes no sense

I put lot of text because most questions are absolutely retarded imho so I dared to explain why. About damage reduction, the late game of the game is about stacking 90%dr mechanics on top of each others OR using perma invulnerability mechanics(like playing limbo and living in the rift) OR using shield gating in order to prevent OS. So atm, for players in Steel Path or doing arbis you are looking at 99%+ dr already or better(other mechanics that effectively deal with infinity numbers damage wise)

Should the late game stay that way though? Or can we normalize the numbers so the late game isn't all about using all that just to prevent OS?

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Almost all my answers were "other" or "maybe", and really what I meant in those cases was "It depends."  And the maximum damage reduction question irritated me, since 100% wasn't an option.  Not that I want a bunch of invulnerable tenno running around, but things like Covenant and Rolling Guard are fine AFAIC.

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This survey is too general,

it also leaves a lot of points open to discussion,

I would like the max raw damage boost to be limited to about 50% , but there are multiple ways to achieve this ,so will they stack or is it hard capped? what about all the different multipliers that exist? base damage (serration) , bonus damage (faction), Bonus Crit, Enemy damage vulnerability (armor stripping , status effects), multishot? is it 50% per effect or 50% total?

Speed too has too many variables, reload speed? fire rate/attack speed? movement speed? frequency of proc tics? what do you limit ?

DR too can be multiplied with multiple effects , Raw health , armor , shield, ability based DR ,Evasion, health regen etc how to actually cap it then? is somone with 10K health better than someone with 5K health and 300 armor? what about 1000 health but 90% DR?

I have always suported the concept of having elements be trading final damage / additive base damage, not a multiplier on the final damage (this needs to be together with the reduction of serration type mods). Eg:

base damage of weapon (IPS) = 75 = (25+ 25+25),

with serration (50%) = 112.5 = 37.5+37.5+37.5

with serration(50%) and elemental mod (30%) = 135 = 37.5+37.5+37.5+22.5

making the effective damage boost with 2 mods at 80%

Status effects are their own thing to consider , but if the damage multipliers are changed the gap between the different types will be lessened. Some will still stay better against some factions but we cant have all things equally good against everything,

Ability effects hitting through walls or locking rooms is entirely subjective, it depends on the effect produced and the actual power level of the ability.

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5 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Okay, self damage boost means abilities that boost your damage like rhino roar or chroma vex armor.

-snip-

We have so many damage buff abilities like roar, eclipse, vex armor, toxic lash, xata's whisper, sonar, blazing chakram, petrify, shooting gallery, molecular prime all the fireball frenzy like augments, the list goes on. Each one of those is calculated differently so setting a % amount does not really work. 

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Il y a 7 heures, TheArmchairThinker a dit :

Should the late game stay that way though? Or can we normalize the numbers so the late game isn't all about using all that just to prevent OS?

 

 I was pointing fact, not giving and opinion. Ofc I have one but I keep it to myself there :).

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