Sevagoths Gloom subsumed - a bit too OP

[elitharcos]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

but better on the main warframe.

 

Amm, We are not gonna talk about the 99.99% slow with rhino's 4th ability or the stacking slow on Equinox's mend and maim which basically is better Limbo because it literally stops enemies.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

First going into extremes is not always good.

Might the fact then imply, because other abilities are capped at 75% slow typically, that going over that value is optional overkill?
Giving you the choice to slow for a very high amount if you choose to sacrifice more of other stats (like xaku 4 slow or like going for the guaranteed drop on protea dispenser)?
The thing ive been saying that 80% is already more than sufficient and achieved with 2 mods likely to be slapped on either way...
 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm talking about DD abilities, where there are currently about a handful of frames that can nuke full maps over and over without LoS and do it effectively. If I was refering to CC I wouldnt really have defended gloom would I? Since it can get a massive range and ignores LoS.

So only Excal, Baruuk (waves for the 2), Equinox (4), Volt (4), Gauss (sunder), Mirage (Explosive), Mag (both 3 and 4), Banshee (4 tho weakest on the list without build around team), Nyx (unaug 4 literally being long defense meta), Khora (1 when used on 4), Frost (2 and 4, both can actually remaining relevant surprisingly well if built for) and technically Gara (wall aoe doesnt go through other walls, but the wall itself spreads and deals the 1 damage everywhere it is on lash pop) in addition to Saryn?

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, elitharcos said:

Amm, We are not gonna talk about the 99.99% slow with rhino's 4th ability or the stacking slow on Equinox's mend and maim which basically is better Limbo because it literally stops enemies.

Nobody is stopping you from talking about any synergy with other abilities. And the comment you quoted was with context of potential nerf for the subsumed variant on other frames like roar is having less power when subsumed. 

And you forgot Nova and Banshee which pairs well with it too.

The equinox stack is not on mend and maim , it's for peaceful provocation.

Rhino would need range which may sacrifice the strength needed for gloom, depends on the build honestly same as with Banshee. And it's not 99% slow , it's an animation lock which can be refreshed repeatedly.

[elitharcos]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nobody is stopping you from talking about any synergy with other abilities. And the comment you quoted was with context of potential nerf for the subsumed variant on other frames like roar is having less power when subsumed. 

And you forgot Nova and Banshee which pairs well with it too.

The equinox stack is not on mend and maim , it's for peaceful provocation.

Rhino would need range which may sacrifice the strength needed for gloom, depends on the build honestly same as with Banshee. And it's not 99% slow , it's an animation lock which can be refreshed repeatedly.

wrong quote for equinox's ability but either way it slows more than a Rhino stomp by itself and with a high efficiency low range build it is literally a time stopper. I once tested against juggernaut's rush and it literally stopped it in place.

With Rhino it is just a 97.5% slow, BUT with gloom it becomes 99.99%(accurately 99.875%) basically it stops enemies which is fun.

[quxier]

11 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Might the fact then imply, because other abilities are capped at 75% slow typically, that going over that value is optional overkill?

Many things are overkill without sacrificing too much. But I'm not going to argue about another +5% because 35% is good enough. Just please don't nerf this aspect.

12 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

The thing ive been saying that 80% is already more than sufficient and achieved with 2 mods likely to be slapped on either way...

2 mods + another few.

[0_The_F00l]

21 minutes ago, elitharcos said:

wrong quote for equinox's ability but either way it slows more than a Rhino stomp by itself and with a high efficiency low range build it is literally a time stopper. I once tested against juggernaut's rush and it literally stopped it in place.

With Rhino it is just a 97.5% slow, BUT with gloom it becomes 99.99%(accurately 99.875%) basically it stops enemies which is fun.

And I am not denying it.

[Andele3025]

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

Many things are overkill without sacrificing too much. But I'm not going to argue about another +5% because 35% is good enough. Just please don't nerf this aspect.

2 mods + another few.

Ok, if you wanna go budget on forma instead of umbrals or are going for a pure shield gate for survival on base body, 3 mods.
And i dont mean nor want to get gloom nerfed, just that for its spread aoe size and being typically slightly cheaper pre-nerf lifestrike and having a cap at 95%, it really doesnt need base slow buffs.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

I'm talking about DD abilities, where there are currently about a handful of frames that can nuke full maps over and over without LoS and do it effectively. If I was refering to CC I wouldnt really have defended gloom would I? Since it can get a massive range and ignores LoS.

As for SP being dominated by shield gate. That is very much up to the player since ehp with armor+hp does the job just as fine. I guess if you wanna push to the very extreme in corpus and grineer endless shield gate will win. But that is also not a benchmark for balance. Plus, versus infested it doesnt matter how much you abuse the shield gate, eventually you will get an unlucky ancient hit on you that will 1HK, which can happen pretty early on when you lack armor and health to take the hit.

More or less this. With the addition that i also can already add ensnare, larva or breach surge. Slow don't make you kill mobs faster (it prevents you from taking damage), packed ennemies makes you kill them faster with AoE, which includes melee, and breach surge add a nice damage to a blind.

Gloom is OK (in steelpath) if you add it to a frame with high HP and armor, and preferably with high energy pool and if you don't want to go for a run that reach levelcap.

I've infused Gloom on Grendel (3000HP, ~800 armor, 600 energy pool) and you can yolo dive in steel path during 1h, nourish energy quite synergize with gloom, which was also nice.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

I'm talking about DD abilities, where there are currently about a handful of frames that can nuke full maps over and over without LoS and do it effectively. If I was refering to CC I wouldnt really have defended gloom would I? Since it can get a massive range and ignores LoS.

As for SP being dominated by shield gate. That is very much up to the player since ehp with armor+hp does the job just as fine. I guess if you wanna push to the very extreme in corpus and grineer endless shield gate will win. But that is also not a benchmark for balance. Plus, versus infested it doesnt matter how much you abuse the shield gate, eventually you will get an unlucky ancient hit on you that will 1HK, which can happen pretty early on when you lack armor and health to take the hit.

More or less this. With the addition that i also can already add ensnare, larva or breach surge. Slow don't make you kill mobs faster (it prevents you from taking damage), packed ennemies makes you kill them faster with AoE, which includes melee, and breach surge add a nice damage to a blind.

Gloom is OK (in steelpath) if you add it to a frame with high HP and armor, and preferably with high energy pool and if you don't want to go for a run that reach levelcap.

I've infused Gloom on Grendel (3000HP, ~800 armor, 600 energy pool) and you can yolo dive in steel path during 1h, nourish energy quite synergize with gloom, which was also nice.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-05-20 at 4:53 PM, Andele3025 said:

So only Excal, Baruuk (waves for the 2), Equinox (4), Volt (4), Gauss (sunder), Mirage (Explosive), Mag (both 3 and 4), Banshee (4 tho weakest on the list without build around team), Nyx (unaug 4 literally being long defense meta), Khora (1 when used on 4), Frost (2 and 4, both can actually remaining relevant surprisingly well if built for) and technically Gara (wall aoe doesnt go through other walls, but the wall itself spreads and deals the 1 damage everywhere it is on lash pop) in addition to Saryn?

I agree on some of those, but several of them are far from nuking full maps without LoS over and over. Even less so when we delve into Steel Path, which seemed to be the focus of why Gloom should get nerfed in the first place.

So we dont have more than a handful that can actually benefit from it in the fashion that Saryn does. Most of the frames listed have very limited range, or fall off very early on with their map wide nuke options. For Steel Path you pretty much have Saryn (though more of a map wide attrition frame there), Lavos (super nuke #4 that is limited by CDs), Enox (who requires facing and killing the enemy to build up the damage for the actual nuke) and Khora (who now needs partial LoS). Sure, Baruuk is a good runner up, but his range is limited and he needs LoS anyways to keep his meter in check.

Saryn and Lavos utilize Gloom the best of those, since it doesnt matter if things are slow and neither of them really need to build specifically for it to work well. Lavos just does what he usually does and benefits from the heal and slow at great range. Saryn doesnt need any pre-req for her AoEs to start working and spreading, so can live with everything being constantly slow. The other frames either needs enemies to come to them, or their builds simply cannot support and maintain gloom, like Baruuk that likely sits at 13% duration, leading to massive drain costs on gloom.

 

 

[Vaml77]

Request a "nerf" on a warframe that has already been forgotten .... how about we talk about saryn who is the most unbalanced warframe in the game?

[quxier]

32 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

Request a "nerf" on a warframe that has already been forgotten .... how about we talk about saryn who is the most unbalanced warframe in the game?

At least Gloom got fixed.

[Tiltskillet]

58 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

Request a "nerf" on a warframe that has already been forgotten .... how about we talk about saryn who is the most unbalanced warframe in the game?

I know going through the hundred or so words in the OP is probably not going to happen, but is reading just seven words in the title too much to expect? 😐

[quxier]

28 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I know going through the hundred or so words in the OP is probably not going to happen, but is reading just seven words in the title too much to expect? 😐

Hmmm:

On 2021-05-19 at 12:15 PM, Prexades said:

this one deserves a bit of a nerf.

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, quxier said:

Hmmm:

Yes, we can cut most of the words out of a quote to make it look like something very different was said.

Like...

On 2021-05-19 at 12:30 PM, quxier said:

I think Helminth version should be buffed.

By cutting out the bit about Dispensary, now it looks like you want Sevagoth to have a weaker version of Gloom than a frame that injects it.  Not cool, is it?

If you're genuinely not aware or have forgotten  the OP was talking about Subsumed Gloom, I can point out the key words for you.

[quxier]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If you're genuinely not aware or have forgotten  the OP was talking about Subsumed Gloom, I can point out the key words for you.

Option nr.3: whenever it's on Sevagoth or subsumed frame it's about nerfing part of Sevagoth's kit.  That or just about Subsumed version was what s/he meant. Or maybe I'm wrong. This person had to clarify it :D

[Andele3025]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So we dont have more than a handful that can actually benefit from it in the fashion that Saryn does. Most of the frames listed have very limited range, or fall off very early on with their map wide nuke options. For Steel Path you pretty much have Saryn (though more of a map wide attrition frame there), Lavos (super nuke #4 that is limited by CDs), Enox (who requires facing and killing the enemy to build up the damage for the actual nuke) and Khora (who now needs partial LoS). Sure, Baruuk is a good runner up, but his range is limited and he needs LoS anyways to keep his meter in check.

No, most of them do benefit in the same fashion. Khora 4 doesnt need LOS, Sunder gauss (or anyone) uses heat so it literally scales for as long as you dont run out of time, Baruuk lull lingers as far as restraint drop and he does have 2 extra ways to do so (tho only one close to efficient) and both Mirage and Nyx outpace Lavos for quite a while (SP wave 185-200) before at which point he too stops being as large of a aoe due to cedo and knukor for 8+procs and 10 viral prep. Oh and for Equi you just patty cake it so after the first 8-10 kills its smooth sailing.
Fair for poor banshee and frost and to a degree for excal (who at that point would go melee instead of wave only) mag and volt tho.

Still original point remains, Spore mom not using LOS for spores is far from a outlier and not even close to the best option as far as scaling (nor safety while map nuking) goes.

7 hours ago, Vaml77 said:

Request a "nerf" on a warframe that has already been forgotten .... how about we talk about saryn who is the most unbalanced warframe in the game?

Weird way to spell swing tavi swing, wukong, gara or sandman depending on definition unless you define warframe as "ESO only because Simaris ASMR".

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, most of them do benefit in the same fashion. Khora 4 doesnt need LOS, Sunder gauss (or anyone) uses heat so it literally scales for as long as you dont run out of time, Baruuk lull lingers as far as restraint drop and he does have 2 extra ways to do so (tho only one close to efficient) and both Mirage and Nyx outpace Lavos for quite a while (SP wave 185-200) before at which point he too stops being as large of a aoe due to cedo and knukor for 8+procs and 10 viral prep. Oh and for Equi you just patty cake it so after the first 8-10 kills its smooth sailing.
Fair for poor banshee and frost and to a degree for excal (who at that point would go melee instead of wave only) mag and volt tho.

Still original point remains, Spore mom not using LOS for spores is far from a outlier and not even close to the best option as far as scaling (nor safety while map nuking) goes.

Weird way to spell swing tavi swing, wukong, gara or sandman depending on definition unless you define warframe as "ESO only because Simaris ASMR".

Khora's 4 doesnt need LoS, but her 4 also does no damage (to mention atleast) on its own. You need LoS in order to trigger the part of it that actually deals damage, which is the sync with her 1. Previously it was all about cracking in the right general direction against a wall or something else, that isnt the case anymore. So slowing something down for her is not really a great option because it take a longer time for them to get within LoS.

Also, a properly built Baruuk has near zero linger time on lull, it is a build that is actively played to manage restraint on demand, hence why the 13% duration build is so good, since he needs duration for nothing in his kit except his pointless 1's drain/sec, which is never used anyways. No duration = lull can get recast over and over while also benefitting fully from maxed out efficiency.

Plus, uhm, wouldnt it be highly detrimental for Nyx to ever slot gloom if the intent is to use her 4 as an AoE nuke? Reuced speed = less attacks incoming = much slower build up before discharge. I've also never experienced a Mirage killing quickly beyond ESO, and even there I've seen them struggle. 

And no matter which of those frames can, it doesnt make Saryn less of an outlier since like I said, there is a handful of them, Saryn being one. Just as there are eHP outliers that trivialize the game in other ways.

[Andele3025]

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Khora's 4 doesnt need LoS, but her 4 also does no damage (to mention atleast) on its own. You need LoS in order to trigger the part of it that actually deals damage, which is the sync with her 1. Previously it was all about cracking in the right general direction against a wall or something else, that isnt the case anymore. So slowing something down for her is not really a great option because it take a longer time for them to get within LoS.

Also, a properly built Baruuk has near zero linger time on lull, it is a build that is actively played to manage restraint on demand, hence why the 13% duration build is so good, since he needs duration for nothing in his kit except his pointless 1's drain/sec, which is never used anyways. No duration = lull can get recast over and over while also benefitting fully from maxed out efficiency.

Plus, uhm, wouldnt it be highly detrimental for Nyx to ever slot gloom if the intent is to use her 4 as an AoE nuke? Reuced speed = less attacks incoming = much slower build up before discharge. I've also never experienced a Mirage killing quickly beyond ESO, and even there I've seen them struggle. 

And no matter which of those frames can, it doesnt make Saryn less of an outlier since like I said, there is a handful of them, Saryn being one. Just as there are eHP outliers that trivialize the game in other ways.

Strangledome mesh applies damage of 1 to all enemies in its aoe when it is hit so yes she still ignores LOS/hits through entire rooms (and even did when Whipclaw on its own was giga crippled).
If you're going for 12% duration baruuk you have 0 downtime on low restraint either way which conflicts with your argument of him having downtime (why i assumed the 50% or 72% setup) as then you are solely using it to drop restraint instead of also benefit from sleep (and likely subsumed away 1 with it having sub 360 cover and S#&$ efficiency).
And enemies never even attack you as nuke Nyx, your allies (or a specter) do.
Mirage is tbf fis best with full preset team (or just have a Arena/280%r Nekros with her), but just Vulpa covers her baseline for SP. For ESO first of people likely dont even bother to read up how her 2 works since "it just works" for some 8 zones min and two because its a constant zone change you aint actually at taggable orb drop cap most of the time. Technically third because Saryn equally doesnt appear outside of ESO.

So it very much does remove the idea of Saryn being a outlier. And the actual EHP outliers arent that popular (or in case of bone papa and to a degree nezha and nova, dont get built to be that most of the time, at least based on anecdotal evidence, as you dont need to).

[Pizzarugi]

On 2021-05-19 at 5:47 AM, quxier said:

Come on with this "nerf this"...

With your setup:

- Zenurik

- Arcane Energize

- Proper gun/ability power

Take it off (Zenurik & Energize) and have "worse" weapon and see how you couldn't keep your Gloom. If this requires nerf then what do you think about Xaku? 100% armor strip and guns that kills most of things makes it not trivial but even worse.

Telling players to gimp themselves isn't how balance works. It'd be like if you complained about a hero in League of Legends being OP and the devs telling you to not pick up items best suited for them so they stop being OP. That does nothing to stop other players from abusing it for easy wins.

Here's a revolutionary idea: Nerf all of those things you listed on top of the Sevagoth subsume ability. Zenurik and Arcane Energize have both fundamentally ruined any sense of energy economy this game used to have to the point that spamming nukes ultimately costs nothing, throwing balance out the window.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Telling players to gimp themselves isn't how balance works. It'd be like if you complained about a hero in League of Legends being OP and the devs telling you to not pick up items best suited for them so they stop being OP. That does nothing to stop other players from abusing it for easy wins.

Here's a revolutionary idea: Nerf all of those things you listed on top of the Sevagoth subsume ability. Zenurik and Arcane Energize have both fundamentally ruined any sense of energy economy this game used to have to the point that spamming nukes ultimately costs nothing, throwing balance out the window.

I guess huge part of game is not balanced. If you gonna nerf "all" then nerf enemies damage/hp as well. Gloom on it's own is not very good.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

If the nerf herders had their way, the only usable frame left in the game would be Inaros.

[TTraw]

Of course it's crazy overpowered and requires a nerf. Why is that even in question.

 

But then, so is Resonator. And nerfs never came. So I don't expect it to be nerfed at all.

[Andele3025]

10 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Zenurik and Arcane Energize have both fundamentally ruined any sense of energy economy this game used to have.

The what now?

[Haeen]

So...what is the purpose of the nerf?

Does it improve balance in anyway?

Does it make other abilities more viable?

Does it create diversity?

 

The answer to all three of these is No.  All it does is nerf, for the sake of what people "feel" rather than what is actually "necessary".  All that is being done is making every single helminthed ability worse and worse, until they all feel bad, and there is no point in using any of them outside of niche builds that no one cares about outside of soloing group based content. 

Why even have the helminth system at that point?

The issue currently is that a small group of abilities are the only one's worth using, and the other's are so incredibly weak or synergy based they cannot be used.  So what needs to be done is instead of listening to people like the OP going "omg nerf its too strong", we should instead swap what helminth abilities are available, and THEN think about buffs/nerfs.  Otherwise, there isn't going to be ANY reason to use the helminth system, which completely defeats the purpose of it existing which is to create interesting builds for various warframes.