Hey DE, care to explain this? (Undesirable effects of a flawed DPS cap.)

[Traumtulpe]

I recently had reason to explain the weird diminishing returns on DPS this game gives relevant enemies, so I recorded a comparison video to highlight it's effect. However, even I was surprised when I looked at the result:

Identical enemies, identical setup, identical (relevant) buffs, with one exception: The first clip has 120% extra fire rate from an Arcane, while the second clip had an empty Arcane slot instead.

I had my expectations, of course, what I didn't expect however, was that the clip without Arcane is 20% shorter. Yes, apparently the Arcane reduces my DPS by 20%. WTF?!

Something must have gone horribly wrong with your calculations, not for the first time, I might add. I'd really like some feedback from you on this!

Edit: Further testing revealed further cause for disappointment:

17 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Got the Acolyte who disables abilities, so it was a bit bothersome getting everything right, but you can clearly see I do the same damage in both pictures - once with 759% Vex Armor, and once without.

Feedback on this hard DPS cap, and the way it invalidates equipment and abilities, would still be appreciated.

[vegetosayajin]

I think they did this change when Scarlet Spear was around.
So it's not something wrong, it's intentional.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, vegetosayajin said:

I think they did this change when Scarlet Spear was around.
So it's not something wrong, it's intentional.

You didn't get the point. I expected to deal less damage per hit with more fire rate, I expected the Arcane to increase My DPS far less than you'd normally think, but it reduces my overall DPS by 20%!

That is definitely not working as intended.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Dem’s some fast killins across both attempts.

Is there a chance your particular situation isn’t what it was meant for? I feel like I’d like to see more testing; perhaps you’re an outlier pip. You seem pretty unhappy with the results, but I’d like to see some other people saying whether it ultimately feels better or not

[vegetosayajin]

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You didn't get the point. I expected to deal less damage per hit with more fire rate, I expected the Arcane to increase My DPS far less than you'd normally think, but it reduces my overall DPS by 20%!

That is definitely not working as intended.

You are talking about clip size, after that dps....
Your clip size is the same, more fire rate has diminishing returns on the dps and your video shows exactly that.
I don't know what I didn't get?
Yes it works as intended for more then a year when you go over some threshold on the fire rate. 
At first it was supposed to be only for the condrix but after the event people started to notice it shows on many other enemies as well.

Try the test on a regular corrupted bombard for example.

[Zeddypanda]

Holy crap. Under no circumstance should adding more DPS reduce DPS.

That being said, I'm curious what's going on here. My guess is that the DPS-checking function doesn't involve reload time. If you also added something like Arcane Pistoleer to increase ammo efficiency, thus excluding reloads, would the time to kill still be lower?

[DrivaMain]

DE's DR is taking account your DPS and then automatically adjust it. For some reason, Critical hits applied AFTER the DR, making crits yet again K I N G. 

[Traumtulpe]

7 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I don't know what I didn't get?

You don't get that it is really, really bad if removing your hard earned equipment makes you kill the enemies faster?

It would be silly enough if there was no difference, but removing the Arcane actually increases my DPS. WTF did I even farm it for then? To kill fodder enemies? This is messed up.

3 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said:

Holy crap. Under no circumstance should adding more DPS reduce DPS.

Exactly!

[Kaotyke]

Send to bug reports, something is obviously not right there.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

What did you change for the 2nd vid? You are applying a puncture proc in the 2nd one.

[Sovyul]

What a title, HOT

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

What did you change for the 2nd vid? You are applying a puncture proc in the 2nd one.

Only the Arcane was removed, the proc comes from a stray Grineer bullet hitting the Acolyte. It makes no difference.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

Only the Arcane was removed, the proc comes from a stray Grineer bullet hitting the Acolyte. It makes no difference.

Have you considered that even though you're so close it's an accuracy thing? What I mean by this is that your multishot bonus is less hence lower crits.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Out of curiosity (and slightly divergent of the main topic, sorry), is the Arcaneless attempt kind of how your toughest fights usually go, @Traumtulpe?

[RazerXPrime]

Seems you're doing about 43% less damage per shot with more firerate. I think in this case reload becomes a thing because you're reloading much much more often. don't know all the specifics of the gun you're using, but this is perhaps the reason why you end up with less dps. Sounds like doing about half the damage and then increasing the speed by 120% but also adding more reload time could very well reduce your overall dps.

Can you do this test with a magazine of 300 and something to see if there is a significant difference? Should be. The less time reloading the more effective this becomes.

Still 43% less damage and then increasing by 120% is roughly an overall of about 20-30% more dps. So nothing spectacular.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Have you considered that even though you're so close it's an accuracy thing? What I mean by this is that your multishot bonus is less hence lower crits.

No, all shots are hitting. Beam weapons don't technically have multishot in the first place (it remains one beam, but receives appropriate bonuses).

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Out of curiosity (and slightly divergent of the main topic, sorry), is the Arcaneless attempt kind of how your toughest fights usually go, @Traumtulpe?

That isn't a tough fight.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, RazerXPrime said:

Seems you're doing about 43% less damage per shot with more firerate. I think in this case reload becomes a thing because you're reloading much much more often. don't know all the specifics of the gun you're using, but this is perhaps the reason why you end up with less dps. Sounds like doing about half the damage and then increasing the speed by 120% but also adding more reload time could very well reduce your overall dps.

Can you do this test with a magazine of 300 and something to see if there is a significant difference? Should be. The less time reloading the more effective this becomes.

Still 43% less damage and then increasing by 120% is roughly an overall of about 20-30% more dps. So nothing spectacular.

It's not the reload the actual damage value per hit is lower. I'm gonna say it's a multishot issue from increased fire rate causing more shots to miss and be wasted.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, all shots are hitting. Beam weapons don't technically have multishot in the first place (it remains one beam, but receives appropriate bonuses).

I know that but I don't think they're all counting because of the fire rate. Hard to explain what I mean. I guess there's a slight possibility that Acolytes vary slightly like lich's do but that's projecting a bit.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

That isn't a tough fight.

That’s why I’m asking 👍 

I don’t know what their toughest fights are

[RazerXPrime]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

It's not the reload the actual damage value per hit is lower. I'm gonna say it's a multishot issue from increased fire rate causing more shots to miss and be wasted.

Yes that's what I said. The damage value is about 43% lower. But if you increase firerate by 120% you increase your dps by 120%. The tradeoff with 43%less damage you should still increase your damage output even by a little. So the difference maker is the time added for extra reloads methinks.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, RazerXPrime said:

Yes that's what I said. The damage value is about 43% lower. But if you increase firerate by 120% you increase your dps by 120%. The tradeoff with 43%less damage you should still increase your damage output even by a little. So the difference maker is the time added for extra reloads methinks.

how does 1 do less damage per bullet by reloading slower or faster? It's the same bullet. Each hit is counting for less, what does reload have to do with that?

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

is the Arcaneless attempt kind of how your toughest fights usually go

No, I always use Arcanes, which is why this comparison surprised me so much. I also usually melee Acolytes.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Yes that's what I said. The damage value is about 43% lower. But if you increase firerate by 120% you increase your dps by 120%.

This is a secondary, so I already have 60% fire rate from the multishot mod. 160% to 280%, so I shoot 75% faster. 57% of 175% is almost 100%. So yes, my shots have the same DPS with or without Arcane, but I obviously reload a lot more with it, decreasing DPS after all.

[RazerXPrime]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

how does 1 do less damage per bullet by reloading slower or faster? It's the same bullet. Each hit is counting for less, what does reload have to do with that?

OP is mentioning he takes longer to kill the target. This includes multiple reloads. More reload time = less actual DPS. The values people are using are DPS per clip, but if you reload half the time you lose a lot of actual DPS.

 

Maybe it's better if I add a bit of my thought process

Let's say he uses a gun that deals 10 damage at a fire rate of 1 per second. So his DPS is 10

He now adds fire rate 120% meaning his dps is now 22. The extra firerate triggers damage reduction on the target to balance this (apparantly). We notice a reduction in damage of about 43% so the 22 is then reduced by 43% ending up at ~12.5. this is still 25% more than before.

 

So my reasoning is that he still takes longer to kill the target (even though he deals 25% more dps per clip) because he also needs to reload far more often. Reload time is about the same as the actual clip gets emptied. I didn't do the math here but if he reloads twice as often he will reduce his overall DPS by about 50% again... and there we have the ~20% less DPS with the Arcane that the OP is mentioned when he equipped it.