Hey DE, care to explain this? (Undesirable effects of a flawed DPS cap.)

[(NSW)Greybones]

11 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, I always use Arcanes, which is why this comparison surprised me so much. I also usually melee Acolytes.

Ah. Cool, additional information.

I was more wondering about the speed that you killed the guy though. It didn’t look like much of a fight, to be honest 😋 More like a curb stomping. Do your tough fights look similar?

[DrivaMain]

It seems the acolytes is using the same math as Eidolons. Again this proves my theory that critical hits are applied after DR. Taken from the wiki : 

 

Eidolons' shields and health possess DR that scales depending on your weapon's DPS.^[1] DPS is calculated by:

Critical Hits are applied after DR is calculated. Additionally, the average DPS is calculated using Health Modifiers and is quantized.

For critical hits

 

This means their math needs fixing to make critical multiplier to be calculated before the DR.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

4 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

OP is mentioning he takes longer to kill the target. This includes multiple reloads. More reload time = less actual DPS. The values people are using are DPS per clip, but if you reload half the time you lose a lot of actual DPS.

 

Maybe it's better if I add a bit of my thought process

Let's say he uses a gun that deals 10 damage at a fire rate of 1 per second. So his DPS is 10

He now adds fire rate 120% meaning his dps is now 22. The extra firerate triggers damage reduction on the target to balance this (apparantly). We notice a reduction in damage of about 43% so the 22 is then reduced by 43% ending up at ~12.5. this is still 25% more than before.

 

So my reasoning is that he still takes longer to kill the target (even though he deals 25% more dps per clip) because he also needs to reload far more often. Reload time is about the same as the actual clip gets emptied. I didn't do the math here but if he reloads twice as often he will reduce his overall DPS by about 50% again... and there we have the ~20% less DPS with the Arcane that the OP is mentioned when he equipped it.

Ok that makes sense, I kinda naturally assumed after watching the video that he's complaining about the different damage values. If you take a look at kill 1 it's 550 per hit, kill 2 is more, which is why I was confused as to how recoil would matter. Yes what you say is perfectly logical but I think the big question is why those values are different with the only change being an Arcane for faster DPS and it goes DOWN, not UP. And I'm assuming that it's related to multishot extra hits counting for more crit value being skewed by the fire rate either messing with hit boxes or missing entirely.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ah. Cool, additional information.

I was more wondering about the speed that you killed the guy though. It didn’t look like much of a fight, to be honest 😋 More like a curb stomping. Do your tough fights look similar?

And you wonder why I say the game is too easy... 😏

[(NSW)Greybones]

21 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

And you wonder why I say the game is too easy... 😏

🤔 Never really wondered though. I know why you say the game is too easy 😋 You worked super hard to make it so, the results of your labor, right?

But I digress! I'm already off-topic with my original question 😅 and @Traumtulpehas been kind enough to answer it so far

[Traumtulpe]

9 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Again this proves my theory that critical hits are applied after DR.

That isn't really relevant in this case, but yes, you are correct.

To be more specific: Critical damage is subject to the DR, but critical chance isn't. If you are already at 100% crit, getting another 50% will increase your damage be 50%. Redcrits instead of yellow does mean you do 400% damage, even higher crit means 8x damage. This is why redcrit melee weapons can oneshot even targets with artificial DR. Sniper combo might work similar, I haven't tested it.

[Zeddypanda]

41 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

the big question is why those values are different with the only change being an Arcane for faster DPS and it goes DOWN, not UP

I'll make up a few numbers for simplicity.

Let's pretend the damage formula is (damage * 2000 / dps). So if you do 1000 damage
per shot and fire 4 shots per second, your damage is (1000 * 2000 / 4000) = 500.
With 4 shots per second, that totals 2000dps.

Now you double your rate of fire so you fire 8 shots per second. Your damage
becomes (1000 * 2000 / 8000) = 250. You still do 2000 dps, but it's spread over 8
shots per second instead of 4. In isolation, you haven't lost any damage output.

Now we factor in reload. Your gun has 12 shots and needs 2 seconds to reload.
Before the rate of fire boost, we could fire for 3 seconds and put out 6000
damage before reloading, so total DPS is 6000 / 5 = 1200dps. After the boost, we
reload for a proportionally longer time. We empty our 12 shots for a total of
3000 damage over 1.5 seconds, and get 3000 / 3.5 ~= 857dps.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said:

I'll make up a few numbers for simplicity.

Let's pretend the damage formula is (damage * 2000 / dps). So if you do 1000 damage
per shot and fire 4 shots per second, your damage is (1000 * 2 / 4000) = 500.
With 4 shots per second, that totals 2000dps.

Now you double your rate of fire so you fire 8 shots per second. Your damage
becomes (1000 * 2 / 8000) = 250. You still do 2000 dps, but it's spread over 8
shots per second instead of 4. In isolation, you haven't lost any damage output.

Now we factor in reload. Your gun has 12 shots and needs 2 seconds to reload.
Before the rate of fire boost, we could fire for 3 seconds and put out 6000
damage before reloading, so total DPS is 6000 / 5 = 1200dps. After the boost, we
reload for a proportionally longer time. We empty our 12 shots for a total of
3000 damage over 1.5 seconds, and get 3000 / 3.5 ~= 857dps.

Ok so what you're basically saying is that the 550 value is giving more values per clip than the higher dmg value in the 2nd one? 

[Zeddypanda]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Ok so what you're basically saying is that the 550 value is giving more values per clip than the higher dmg value in the 2nd one? 

In the second video, the damage per clip is higher, but the DPS is in theory lower or at least equal right up until OP has to reload.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said:

In the second video, the damage per clip is higher, but the DPS is in theory lower or at least equal right up until OP has to reload.

That's not my question, the damage value PER BULLET is lower. Why is that. nevermind the DPS per clip etc, I understand all that. It is 550 PER HIT in the 1st example, 962 PER HIT in the second.

[Zeddypanda]

5 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

That's not my question, the damage value PER BULLET is lower. Why is that.

Oh I see. The game pulls this crap with any enemy that doesn't die if you look at them. Necramechs, Nox, Eidelons, Profit-Taker, Lephantis, Treasurers etc etc all have tailor-made damage-reducing formulas applied that uses your estimated DPS (usually excluding crit chance) in order to squish damage output. Most of the time it doesn't work, but it often punishes multishot and most of all rate of fire.

Have a look at, for instance, the wiki page for Necramechs:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Necramech_(Enemy)#Damage_Resistance

DrivaMain posted the formula used for Eidelons above. The tl;dr is that mods like Critical Delay are good picks because both the increased crit and the reduced rate of fire are beneficial to your DPS against enemies that matter.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said:

Oh I see. The game pulls this crap with any enemy that doesn't die if you look at them. Necramechs, Nox, Eidelons, Profit-Taker, Lephantis, Treasurers etc etc all have tailor-made damage-reducing formulas applied that uses your estimated DPS (usually excluding crit chance) in order to squish damage output. Most of the time it doesn't work, but it often punishes multishot and most of all rate of fire.

Have a look at, for instance, the wiki page for Necramechs:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Necramech_(Enemy)#Damage_Resistance

DrivaMain posted the formula used for Eidelons above. The tl;dr is that mods like Critical Delay are good picks because both the increased crit and the reduced rate of fire are beneficial to your DPS against enemies that matter.

Ok I sort've understand, it was doing my head in. I kind've assumed it was based on not all hits from the multishot counting leading to lesser crits, kinda how in Eidolons with a moderate crit chance and no multiplier you can still red crit with Rubico thanks to Vigilante Armaments being inconsistent.

[Traumtulpe]

I wanted to see if using Arcane Precision (+300% base damage) would have any effect at all, but I accidentally forgot to recast Vex Armor. So I ended up with -459% base damage... and it made no difference at all! I did exactly as much damage as before (without the fire rate Arcane).

So basically, gear and abilities don't matter at all. All that stuff I farmed? Completely pointless. Might as well use Frost and an MK 1 Braton. At least that's the impression I get...

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I wanted to see if using Arcane Precision (+300% base damage) would have any effect at all, but I accidentally forgot to recast Vex Armor. So I ended up with -459% base damage... and it made no difference at all! I did exactly as much damage as before (without the fire rate Arcane).

So basically, gear and abilities don't matter at all. All that stuff I farmed? Completely pointless. Might as well use Frost and an MK 1 Braton. At least that's the impression I get...

Your impression is wrong but sure, think that. You've been given several possible explanations in this thread, are you really searching for an answer or trying to complain?

 

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Your impression is wrong but sure, think that.

I just explained to you that I do the same damage with or without Vex Armor. Then I said abilities don't matter at all, which is merely an obvious observation of what happened.

And you just write I'm wrong, without doing anything, least of all thinking, it seems. Looks like you deserve some applause.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I just explained to you that I do the same damage with or without Vex Armor. Then I said abilities don't matter at all, which is merely an obvious observation fo what happened.

And you just write I'm wrong, without doing anything, least of all thinking, it seems. Looks like you deserve some applause.

I see, so a still image not even showing the abilities is supposed to be more convincing is it? And again, you're ignoring all the comments in this thread. No you're absolutely right, why don't you go take an unmodded Excalibur in and your MK1 braton and see if there's a difference.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I see, so a still image is supposed to be more convincing is it? And again, you're ignoring all the comments in this thread.

You can see the damage numbers, can't you? Try it yourself if you don't believe me. I am well aware of the comments, and the mechanics behind the godawful results I am seeing in the game.

Everything else is the same, I just add more fire rate: I deal less DPS.

Everything else is the same, I just remove close to 500% base damage: Exactly the same DPS.

This looks like a problem to me, If you think it's just great, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

You can see the damage numbers, can't you? Try it yourself if you don't believe me. I am well aware of the comments, and the mechanics behind the godawful results I am seeing in the game.

Everything else is the same, I just add more fire rate: I deal less DPS.

Everything else is the same, I just remove close to 500% base damage: Exactly the same DPS.

This looks like a problem to me, If you think it's just great, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I can't see the abilities which you claim aren't on.

I've explained why the fire rate is giving less DPS. 

If everything else is the same why don't you test it with an unmodded Excalibur? It'll be the same right?

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

If everything else is the same why don't you test it with an unmodded Excalibur? It'll be the same right?

I'll have to use a Warframe with CC, as an unmodded Excalibur would die in 2 hits, and couldn't consistently headshot the Acolytes, but the damage would indeed be exactly the same.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I'll have to use a Warframe with CC, as an unmodded Excalibur would die in 2 hits, and couldn't consistently headshot the Acolytes, but the damage would indeed be exactly the same.

Cool go kill him with a MK1 Braton then.

[Traumtulpe]

17 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Cool go kill him with a MK1 Braton then.

I don't have one, obviously, nor am I going to level one for you, obviously. Have some pictures instead:

Got the Acolyte who disables abilities, so it was a bit bothersome getting everything right, but you can clearly see I do the same damage in both pictures - once with 759% Vex Armor, and once without.

[Sevek7]

Yeah this is just some DE math and poor attempt at balance. They don't want you to kill their special enemies too quickly, so they introduce a damage cap per hit based on your fire rate. If you increase your fire rate, the damage cap goes down, so increasing fire rate makes your damage per hit lower. Likewise, increasing your base damage does nothing if you're already at capped damage per hit.

[0_The_F00l]

I only wish these dynamic damage reduction mechanics were part of the mod description and not a hidden mechanic.

Makes it feel like ... misleading the players to grind or trade for no reason (irrespective of how unlikely it is to actually lose effectiveness),

I personally don't use very high fire rate weapons so I haven't noticed this , just one more reason to use AoE weapons over focused fire weapons I suppose.

This revelation, if not just a bug due to bad maths, is truly disappointing.

 

[Galuf]

tl;dr; automatic weapons against scalling dynamic ehp targets in a nutshell :D

It's old news, counter intuitive and not very player friendly. Basically when enemies have dynamic defense based on your dps, reloading timer increased have an increasing return on your actual dps on those target, your average dps stays the same from a fire rate increase but as you reload more you loose extra dps. For those kind of enemies, you want ranged weapons that have actually a meaningfull burst dps and obviously your regular fair automatic weapons as bad there(to be completly fair, these are bad everywhere and at every stage of the game)

[Alpheus]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I don't have one, obviously, nor am I going to level one for you, obviously. Have some pictures instead:

Got the Acolyte who disables abilities, so it was a bit bothersome getting everything right, but you can clearly see I do the same damage in both pictures - once with 759% Vex Armor, and once without.

NGL this is explains why it feels like no matter what frame I bring I always end up having to use CO heavies to kill them in a reasonable time.