Will Zephyr's tornados + gas combo be changed/nerfed?

[-Vahagn-]

So Zephyr has some interesting synergy with gas. Apparently with a high enough crit chance and just gas damage you can shred apart high level enemies like it is nothing.

Now I am fine with this and think it is great. Since bird frame now finally gets her time to shine. However I am worried this would encourage a nerf to Zephyr. Or at least, changes to how gas works on tornadoes. I guess changes to gas would be ok but I really do not want to nerf Zephyr's passive or the 200% crit amplification from tornadoes.

 

Also to be upfront, I am actually not sure why gas is very strong on tornadoes. I hear it has something to do with damage stacking.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Why even ask? Gas got nerfed so probably not.

[-Vahagn-]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Gas got nerfed so probably not.

Well I am not referring to gas by itself, but rather gas on tornados. So I am assuming they will just nerf gas on tornados rather than gas itself.

I agree gas is weak by itself and should not by nerfed.

[Berzerkules]

Zephyr's tornados aren't the only thing that synergize with gas.

If you can get lots of enemies tightly grouped you stack multiple clouds, pair that with Breach Surge, some armor strip or both and gas isn't that bad of a damage type. It's not what it used to be but neither are the enemies after the changes to armor scaling. 

[ReddyDisco]

there's no point beating a cremated horse 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Well I am not referring to gas by itself, but rather gas on tornados. So I am assuming they will just nerf gas on tornados rather than gas itself.

I agree gas is weak by itself and should not by nerfed.

There are millions of random ways to make things OP in the game. A bunch of people aren't gonna rush to Zephyr to try the gas cloud tornadoes lol. It's a complete non issue.

[0_The_F00l]

It's not gas that is powerful by itself , 

But Even an elephant can be defeated by an army of ants that keep biting repeatedly.

In this case gas is one ant , and the tornadoes are an ant cloning factory.

Tornadoes converts any instance of  damage recieved into aoe damage.

Gas does AOE damage to all enemies so each is its own instance.

Add critical hits and how her tornadoes boost critical damage.

We get a positive feedback loop.

Similar results can be achieved with breach surge though it's less consistent.

Considering how niche it is (and I can still provide equal damage up to a reasonable level with other non gas weapon attacks using tornadoe) I do not foresee any nerfs.

[Eluminary]

Usage data typically will dictate nerfs if alot start using it alot then nerf will likely come, but its zephyr and almost nothing they have ever done to zephyr have upped her numbers much

[Kaotyke]

Yes. It will.

How do I know?

Because.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, Eluminary said:

Usage data typically will dictate nerfs if alot start using it alot then nerf will likely come, but its zephyr and almost nothing they have ever done to zephyr have upped her numbers much

You haven't used Zephyr recently I take it ?

[(PSN)KCGrimReaper15]

No Zephyr is finally In a great place.. DE should leave it as is because she honestly very useful now where as before her last rework she was useless & basically Mastery Fodder...

I love how I can now make the Tornado's be stationery helping to protect the Defense Pods In a Defense mission 

Before Zephyr was squishy & weak now she can be used in endgame & more.. I'm pretty happy with her rework..

When DE does reworks they need to remember how good they did certain frames like Nekros Chroma Zephyr & others & make sure they continue there recent trend of very good reworks 

Making a frame more useful vs destroying it completely is something I actually enjoy seeing I remember when I used to dislike reworks because DE always used to destroy the frame & there purpose 

Now recently they have done a magnificent job especially with Frames that were once useless like Zephyr by making them very useful & underrated options to use in missions you wouldn't have before..

so as long as DE continues these awesome reworks they will eventually make all Warframes fun & useful & most importantly it will open to more variety...

So please keep up the awesome work DE... 

[Redfeather75]

They should nerf gas. I'm tired of seeing gas used everywhere all the time.

On Plains of Eidolon, Orb Valis and Deimos all I see is everyone using gas all the time because of how effective it is. 😐

[(PSN)KCGrimReaper15]

49 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

They should nerf gas. I'm tired of seeing gas used everywhere all the time.

On Plains of Eidolon, Orb Valis and Deimos all I see is everyone using gas all the time because of how effective it is. 😐

Though I don't use Gas I can say I disagree with you...

There 0 reason to nerf it so what it's effective on most everything thing is Gas in reality is pretty much effective with anything so here's the best solution if you Hate gas that much then you have several choices to make 

Option 1

Accept it & continue playing realizing this game isn't about who gets the most kills like in Call Of Duty & others it's about making sure the mission is a success... 

Option 2 

Play Solo or with Friends or form a squad in recruiting with rules to play your way...

Otherwise your last option may be to quit Warframe & not play anymore because not everyone gonna play the way you like..

I've come to the point that if someone isn't playing the game the way It should be or I don't like the frame or weapons there using I'll just leave but it is very rare cause honestly I'm just trying to help make sure the mission is a success..

Look we choose to play this game because we like it so much & while there are things we may not like that people do 

Nobody forces us to play.. we play because it's a choice & we have fun if you don't like playing with people who run gas then you have the choice to quit the squad & try again with a different squad.. 

The way I see it is that If you stay in a mission with someone who is using gas then your OK with someone using it so I don't see the point in your post... 

We really should stop requesting nerfs & start requesting buffs because all nerfs do is take the fun away in a game.& make things completely useless to point nobody uses them..

Buffs gives us more choices & options so buffs should be a Higher priority..

Instead of nerfing Gas how about we buff all the other elements to be on par with Gas then people will be more inclined to use other elements once again providing more choices for the user..

[Redfeather75]

^ I can't tell whether this is genius roleplaying or not. My hat off to you good sir.

[Alpheus]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)KCLegionOfZoom20 said:

Accept it & continue playing realizing this game isn't about who gets the most kills like in Call Of Duty & others it's about making sure the mission is a success... 

I agree with the sentiment but acknowledge the reality that in a lot of game modes, a high enough kill rate directly translates to mission success. Survival is the obvious one, but more kills in Defense means less things shooting at the pod, more kills in Defection means less things attacking the Kavor, more kills in Excavation means less things attacking the diggers and more batteries, etc. Sure there are other ways to make the missions easier (Cataclysm, glass wall, frost dome, Wisp motes, Vazarin) but killing is universal in its effectiveness. It's why I like Defection a lot because your kill rate has zero bearing on the mission's outcome, so you're free to bring something typically unfit for nuking like Garuda or Nyx, as long as you can kill the demos in time and survive to extraction.

Of course, more kills also means more resources and faster key drops so I still try to kill a bunch.

[Dunkelheit]

This "Zephyr playstyle" might be amazing in the Simulacrum, but I am rarely amazed when in normal missions. Sometimes you don't even know which Tornado to shoot, because enemies fly in between. Sometimes it flat out does not work and sometimes the levels are so narrow, that you can't even use it correctly.

Again, it seems amazing when trying it out in Simulacrum, but when you tested in a real game, suddenly it is not that great any more (still good though).

There are other interesting things about the Tornadoes, try Trumnas secondary shot btw and you will be marvelled. But this again does not translate so well into real gameplay.

[vegetosayajin]

Not an issue.
Also if gas got nerfed anymore(even if it's just for a case) they will be better of deleting it at all.
Compared to it's previous glory this now is nothing.

[IR4_IR4]

 

hace 1 minuto, vegetosayajin dijo:

Not an issue.
Also if gas got nerfed anymore(even if it's just for a case) they will be better of deleting it at all.
Compared to it's previous glory this now is nothing.

SURE --> Compared to it's previous glory this now is nothing.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2021-05-20 at 5:15 AM, WH1735S0W said:

So Zephyr has some interesting synergy with gas.

Yeah, she does. The fun is that Gas is a Status type that deals damage to things around it, there's one other similar that I'll get to that's even better, but here's how it works:

Tornado, when you cast it as the stationary version, will pass the Gas damage on through itself with the bonus Crit Damage that it bestows and identical Crit Chance and Status Chance that your weapon put into it.

When the Status procs on an enemy held by the funnels, it creates a ring of damage ticks outwards, these damage the funnels of Tornado again, causing that damage to ping back from the Tornado to the enemy. This creates an almost self-perpetuating cycle of dealing damage from the Tornado, creating the Status on the enemy, the Status dealing damage to Tornado, and repeat.

It's good, it scales up quite well, the more enemies caught in the ability, the more it works.

However.

There is better, that I'm hoping doesn't get nerfed because it needs just a little more specifics. And that's Electric. Why Electric? Because the Status proc calculates its damage as a multiplier of the damage you put in, rather than as a percentage, and does the same radial ticks of damage as Gas, but not as a lingering effect after death. Bit of a trade-off there...

This, with the right build on a weapon... you're kind of just laughing at enemies. 

(Try this: https://overframe.gg/build/163805/ it's a little Forma intensive, but if you want to cut down on a Forma you can either not include the Bane mod, swap it for something like Vigilante Armaments for more Multishot, or Hammer Shot for more Crit Damage, or Hunter Munitions in case you have to use it without Tornado. Alternatively you could save that Forma by removing the Exilus mod, it's just quality of life there. The Fulmin's projectile doesn't really suffer from Heavy Calibre's accuracy problem either, because you're shooting Tornado, not the enemies.)

All it takes is five or six enemies caught in Tornado and Electric nukes. Same deal as Gas, but faster because of the way it calculates the damage on the Status proc.

I have quite a bit of fun watching the saddest, shortest visits from Acolytes because all I do is grab enemies into Tornado, wait for the Acolyte to touch the radius (they don't get CC'd, but they do get damaged), then shoot. They melt.

As for the actual question...

No, I don't think this should get nerfed. This was literally one of the reasons that players wanted the funnels to be cast as a stationary pattern like this. The very fact that we got away with it is a miracle, and I don't want to waste it.

Zephyr has plenty of drawbacks to her play style, and balancing that with a single, high damage potential function that would otherwise just be a CC and slight damage boost to your weapons? That's fair to me.

[STUVash]

If we're talking about a Gas Cloud from a dead enemy that relay damage to the tornadoes then yes Gas is great on Tornadoes, but if we're talking living enemies then Gas is still not that great, there are lot more talks to change Gas and make it work properly rather than Nerfing it.

We already talked on multiple topics why Gas is weird af but the short version is that new stacks overwrite old ones with a capped number of 10 stacks per enemies.
The good part about tornadoes is that they relay any damage they take to nearby enemies, including Gas Clouds.

The bad part is that they also damage enemies even when they take no damage while using the last element type that damaged them. Now you have 3 tornadoes spamming low damage on your enemies overwriting your Gas stacks which had decent damage stored for 6 seconds but now after 3 seconds it's all been replaced with low damage.
It's even worst when you had a high status duration build. 12 seconds worth of high damage done in 3, and even more ridiculous with the augment to have even more tornadoes.

I suppose you could keep applying Gas Stacks to overwrite the bad ones, fighting against your own tornadoes. The damage distribution will still be nice because of how this all works, but Gas on its own isn't doing that much magic unless the pack of enemies die under 3 seconds.
If you want AoE you already have Tornadoes relaying damage, any damage type would be fine if you keep hammering them.

Electricity is fine too, Gas should be the better choice when enemies are packed, but because we keep wasting stacks it's not as effective as it should be. Heat on the other hand, now that's an element working with Tornadoes just fine. You get the damage as a DoT but your tornadoes also keep refreshing the status timer even if they deal no damage they would extend the Heat status duration by refreshing it.