Get Lich or Die Tryin, A Rework

[Dairaion]

Foreword

After finally building a railjack, playing some missions and getting a crew, I finally had the chance to acquire a lich crew member. I have concerns, the lich while nigh indestructible doesn't do much, this isn't that big of a issue as a well maintained crew pretty much runs itself through a constant cycle of repair, fight repair fight, however i feel that considering that obtaining the lich requires you to progress through several major quests, often alone as well as grinding through several dozen weapons and warframes, Then RNGing a good lich, acquiring murmurs and the requiem mods, then defeating the lich, the current concept lacks scale. Many of the players have been doing so for a long time and it's easy for them and the developers to forget the scale of time and work it took to get here, to get to lich crew members. At the moment liches exist to trade kuva weapons and take up space on previously functional railjacks. This suggestion seeks to change that.

Base Mechanics

While much of this could be done in-game with menu assets already in place thematically all of this should be centered around a new clan dojo room similar to the crimson branch called the Grineer Cantonment. Like the railjack quest it's parts would be acquired by the acquisition of parts scattered throughout the galaxy and act as barracks for liches and such, each one could in theory be faction based. For the purposes of the lich it would require the theft of several parts stolen from grineer factions (cloning tube from regor, fomorian power core, etc) to build it. The Cantonment would station liches in a physical location instead of a menu, from here liches would be upgraded mechanically and altered cosmetically, any foundry or incubation actions related to liches would occur here in addition to storing excess parts and mods so they don't muck up your inventory. This would ensure that there is a healthy wall between lower level players and the content, so some rando base color scheme excal doesn't end up blazing through the galaxy with a Grineer Tuxedo Mask saving them at every failure or worst is donated a entire maxed out Lich A-Team that guides him through cutting a bloody swath across the galaxy like a squad of magic vampire pirate rambos. This is because while a player could be traded a lich, and assign them to a crew, they wouldn't be allowed to set their standard spawn without the signing a Blood Pact which requires the Cantonment. The Blood Pact is a special agreement from Grineer culture, it costs focus, requires Excal Umbra, the broken scepter, and takes place between the chosen lich and operator within the cantonment. A short animation plays where Excal Umbra holds the broken scepter between the Lich and Operator, separating them like a referee, the Lich slices his hand on the blade confidently, followed by the Operator awkwardly, before they shake hands and at this moment the level of investment in the blood pact. A Blood Pact determines the level of fealty the lich has to the operator. For 25,000 Focus the lich is Apprehensive and can now be further upgraded, He will wander your dojo unless assigned to a railjack. For 50,000 focus he is Agreeable and will appear when the operator is downed once per mission and stay for 2 minutes. For 75,000 focus the lich be Amiable will spawn in when you are downed but stay until it's defeated. For 100,000 focus the lich is Ardent and spawns in with you and follows you anywhere. The amount of liches you can have active within this system is tied to your MR, 1 for every 5 levels, at maximum 3 liches may spawn in at once, if you have multiple in the same blood pact level, They are selected randomly, once spawned they can be commanded to hold their location or follow. The Blood Pact is the base level of involvement for both possible systems, this is because otherwise liches don't do much. To cancel a blood contract the operator must spend 25,000 focus and they return into a base lich, losing any higher function. This would mean that at the very least, to run a Railjack of fully upgradeable liches one would need to spend 75,000 focus. To have a functioning railjack and full boarding party 375,000 focus. I'm not entirely sure how but there has to be some way to allow them to follow you through archwing sections i'm not sure of yet.

When it comes to further modifying the Liches themselves there are two systems it could be based off of, the simple Mod system and the complex Warframe system.

 

Simple System

If simplicity is the goal, a linear upgrade system like that of the Endo-Mod interaction would be best. Simply replace Endo with Kuva, a relatively unused resource from a relatively ignored portion of the game whose end goal generally leads to kuva weapons and the aforementioned poorly implemented liches. In this respect the liches could either be upgraded like a primed mod, heavy investment with a general benefit or Kuva could be directly poured into specific aspects like health, shields, armor, movement speed like operator polarities. In both cases a maxed out lich would acquire the ability to perform one railjack role. This system maintains the base lich concept while adding in just a little bit more progress and makes lich conversion as good of a reward as vanquishing for railjack players.

Complex System

A deeper and more rewarding path is to handle the lich like a companion or non-playable warframe, with its own insular system. This system is divided into two, Phylacteries and Bionics. Phylacteries Handle anomalous abilities and Bionics pertain to cybernetic implants concerning the big three of railjack  (Gunnery, Repair, Piloting). For sanity sake I will do my best to organize this in an easily digestible way.

*Lich Leveling

Firstly in this system Liches gain EXP from their actions up to level 30, an additional 10 levels can be gained through Kuva infusion at the Clan Cantonment. The level of the lich determines its mod capacity, which can be doubled with a Orokin Reactor. Every 10 levels after 10 the lich can unlock a Bionics slot. leveling up does not affect a lich's in game health, armor, or shields.

*Phylacteries (lich mods)

Lorewise Phylacteries are artificially kuva saturated organs with void infused synthetic upgrades, the application of Void weirdness into a lich, this is what frees the lich from the queens and brings them under your protection. Functionally they act as a cross between Augments and Arcanes, Phylacteries are upgraded like a mod with Kuva instead of Endo and dropped from Kuva related enemies with a higher chance if the body is dissolved with the broken scepter. There are 4 kinds of Phylacteries: Heart, Gall, Liver, Spine.

 

Because these mods are tied directly to the grineer conceptually they should stay close to the grineer story, because of this i think their scaling systems should start at the basic Cloned -> Kuva-> Orokin, with Orokin being exceptionally rare, reward only. Cloned Phylacteries are dropped from specific grineer opponents and represent organs being taken and altered from base clone flesh and act like normal mods. Kuva Phylacteries represent organs infused using "Kuva Theurgy" and are dropped almost unusable, they represent the natural end of phylacteries. Their base stats are stronger than their Cloned equivalent but they are locked. when equipped to a lich, his affinity charges it unlocking 1 of 10 words sequentially, these words represent what requiem mod and must be sacrificed in what order in the cantonment to infuse the organ not simply with the kuva but the power Kuva channels itself through the requiem sigils engraved into it, unlocking the Phylactery for upgrading. After this unlocking the mod may be infused with the Kuva resource to upgrade it like normal. The final tier would be Orokin, representing old war era pure grineer organs corrupted by the void directly instead of through synthetic upgrades, these are stronger than those underneath and should not be tradeable but dissolved into a Endo and any invested Kuva. they have to be unlocked the same way Kuva tier Phylacteries are but require more affinity and give more greater bonuses. There is also the possibility of special variants of the Heart and Gall phylacteries that use non-standard grineer camo variants.

Ex.

Cloned Deranged Heart would allow a lich to spawn in with 1-3 Manic Thralls with 3 upgrades increasing the base to always spawning 3, while Kuva Deranged Heart spawns in a flat 4, when unlocked Kuva Deranged heart would spawn in 4-10 with 6 upgrades until 10 are always spawned, Orokin Deranged Heart would spawn in a flat 10 but instead but each upgrade replaces one of the normal manics with a Nightwatch manic.

Phylactery types

Heart mods effect thralls, liches should spawn in with non essential thralls who follow the lich, the mods should determine which grineer thrall units are spawned in and how many.

Ex.

Deranged Heart

Cloned Grade

Spawns 1-3 Manic Thralls

 

Gall mods determine the companion the lich spawns with, these would be things like Drahks, Hyekka, or Carabus drones

Ex.

Sintering Gall

Kuva Grade

Spawns in a Kuva Grade Carabus Drone

 

Liver mods are terrain auras. the auras should have non standard effects like breaking containers, auto opening doors, or other environmental affecting mods.

Ex.

Poltern Liver

Orokin Grade

Containers and lockers erupt within 100 meters.

 

Spine mods cast a weak mass debuff, an anti aura, that affects enemies.

Ex.

Hobbling Spine

Kuva grade

Enemies within 75 meters have a 10% chance to be tripped per tick

Phylactery Conclusion

As an example, picture a lich, Dlodd Vam, he is set to land with his tenno. Along with him are 12 Kuva Eviscerator thralls who follow him and a Armored Drahk companion, all security sensors within 50 feet of him break instantly and enemies within 50 meters suffer a 5% chance to flee for 60 seconds.

Conceptually Phylacteries shouldn't interact with their base lich abilities nor railjack, but expand on the concept of kuva fueled abilities and it's supernatural themes as an inversion to operator abilities. These should drive home the idea that the lich is something outside of the natural order in little ways, with small effects, organ by organ adding up to a larger, scary picture. Anakin Skywalker isn't scary, but in a black knight armor, in an unlit tunnel, with glassy red glowing goggles he's horrifying. These are important because they represent the first big step in individualizing a kuva lich and while it would be a slow process it is ultimately rewarding.

 

*Bionics (lich Upgrades)

Bionics are non-cosmetic, semi permanent, brain implants that oversee a lich's Railjack interaction, whose stats generated from RNG like rivens and Railjack parts. Without a corresponding bionic being implanted a lich will not be capable of being assigned that part’s role. Mainly of Grineer and Corpus origin they come in 3 forms: Neuro representing Piloting, Cerebra for Repair, Oculi for Gunnery. Each implant branch would provide a number of stat bonuses drawn from faction suites which would be based on a certain concept and apply within combat and their role. Grineer implants would emphasize bluntness, Corpus combat efficiency, while less common suites like Orokin, Amalgam, or Helminth would emphasize Shock and Awe, Defense, and  Hit and Run respectively. Every Bionic provides 2 kinds of effects, a Railjack effect which benefits the lich while fulfilling its role and a general effect that applies in and out of the role. As you will notice, there is no Defender Bionic, this is because Defender is is a cursed idea due to there only being 3 slots and the existence of the Repairman who both repairs and defends, maybe the defender could work one day but right now it solely exists as a kiddie table for liches and poorly assigned crewmen. In addition Defender bonuses for liches would be useless as the defender is based around conventional combat. Bionics from Corpus and Grinner drop from specific units. Neuro Bionics drop from Grineer Commanders and Corpus Aurax while Cerebra and Oculi drop from Gokstad Officers, Gokstad Pilots, and Corpus Crewmen. Orokin, Amalgam, and Helminth Bionics drop randomly as rewards from Corrupted, Amalgam, and Infested enemies, respectively, rarely.

 

Ex.

Corpus Resolution

Neuro Bionic

Railjack Bonus

Energy Efficiency 120%

Combat Bonus

Critical chance 110%

 

 Thusly Corpus Resolution would 

1. Allow the lich to Pilot a Railjack 

2. provide a bonus to railjack energy efficiency to the Lich when he is piloting while 

3. providing a increased Crit chance and while piloting and in normal combat, in addition the Upgrade would not give bonuses to piloting but also allow it to occur at all, this means that without it the lich could not perform this function.

Ex.

Orokin Vehemence

Cerebra Bionic

Railjack Bonus

Fire rate 150%

Combat

Multishot 160%

 

This Bionic 

1. Allows the lich to assume the repair role

2. affects the Omni by providing a 150% increase in fire rate for the omni and 

3. multishot, however only the multishot applies outside of the Omni use.

 

Because the Bionics provide an out of railjack bonus it would give people the drive to fill out all four slots (Neuro, Cerebra, Oculi), while also slowing their application. due to being semi-permanent, this could be achieved with a 3 day recovery period for taking a part out before you use your lich again. Bionics are dropped as blueprints and aren’t upgradable but require resources to build, in some cases warframe parts and implanted into a a chosen lich like a orokin reactor.

Conclusion

Bionics represent a more direct system compared to the phylacteries but are handled in a far more passive way. They are base stat improvements and should be the closest a lich gets to normal mods.

*Lich Shunting

Another idea is lich "shunting", where one lich is subsumed into another and have their base stats combined similar to valence fusion, sorta of like a soft reroll. This allows the player to select the lich's base element (which is also buffed) and weapons. This would allow a lich to have a fire element but radiation abilities. The lich also now can fill all three weapon slots to make their combat look dynamic. The lich would still be limited to Kuva weapons which could only be acquired through fusion, they don’t want any of yours due to Grineer cultural taboos.while a secondary weapon sounds silly as they have no reason to switch to it, they will pull it out if downed or if it is knocked from their grasp. The ensuing lich would gain a minor element buff similar to valence and this element would be applied across the board to everything the lich does including becoming their immunity. A Shunted lich gets randomly selected weaknesses pooled from those present in the donor liches, the lich’s origin is listed as (Clan Name)'s Cantonment. and the warframe head would be the one active during their creation.

 

Cosmetics

Cosmetics, either the least or most important depending, is simple. at the very least adopt the same system from the normal crew appearance selection. by allowing the player to swap their Syandanas and Attachments. Also ahead of time make the attachments bigger, they always seem down scaled.

However, for a more elaborate system one should be able to swap out the body, arms, legs, and head, like lego men these parts would be acquired from vanquished liches, coloration alteration tied to the warframe system is a must.

Down the line it should also be possible to swap out body parts with styles based on famous grineer. Clem, Prisma Clem, and Clem Prime could be body parts based on the standard grineer lancer, then you have the numerous others like the Bosses , Kuva Guard, The Wolf, Heavy grineer units, Arena grineer, all whose parts could be dropped randomly after defeat  allowing you to print it's parts in the foundry like a warframe. these parts would be cosmetic.

Final Words

I know what you're thinking, this is a lot for railjack allies but this is a total lich update. Firstly this makes liches into individuals, scary individuals. Secondly the lich now benefits the player and rewards them for time investment. And finally people who like playing alone can now acquire small armies for those large scaled missions, it makes you feel like your character has progressed and is having an effect on the world around them in an epic and tangible way. Personally as someone that likes playing single player nothing is cooler than having three unique followers, that are at my level, whose existence is influenced. Even if you think spawning in 3 full power liches, whom all spawn with 5-10 thralls each in a mission is overpowered i reaffirm, remember what it takes to get there, remember how much further you still have to go, in a universe where you face increasingly powerful cosmic horrors is it unreasonable to possess progressively eldritch allies?

 

[DrivaMain]

I see the OP has not touched Lich weapon and ability damage. Lich weapons are currently unmodable, making them inferior compared to regular syndicate crew. Also their ability should use the enemy level scaling damage formula that Grendel, Vauban, and Xaku has. I made a similar thread regarding this issue

Here’s the inside of the thread :

On 2021-04-26 at 6:19 AM, DrivaMain said:

Converted Kuva Liches as we all agree upon are terrible. As a randomly spawned ally after a player enter bleedout they don’t do much damage, mostly terrible abilities because they are designed mostly dealing with Tenno, and the limited spawn duration. As crew, they are restrained to the defender role and they cannot be modded so they fall short in high level compared to regular crew. I understand that DE doesn’t want Kuva Liches to be better crewmates that it made regular crew irrelevant. I am here to change that without stepping into that territory. Now onto my suggestions :

1. In mission a converted Lich now gives a special buff (let’s call it Lich Presence) to all allies in the level, also apply to converted Lich as crew. Now you will be happy when a Lich spawns and actually acts as an actual backup when the situation is dire instead of being a worse specter. My proposed buff based on their element will be like this, scales by Lich rank.

• Heat : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% Heat damage on weapons and abilities. +10%/+20%/+30%/+40%/+50% Ability STR.
• Impact : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% Impact damage on weapons and abilities. +100%/+200%/+300%/+400%/+500% Armor. Allies are immune to staggers and knockdown.
• Cold : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% Cold damage on weapons and abilities. Allies project a chill slowing aura in a 5 meter radius that deals 1/2/3/4/5 cold proc(s) every second.
• Toxin : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% Toxin Damage on weapons and abilities. +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% status chance on weapons and abilities.
• Electric : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% Electric damage on weapons and abilities. +15%/+30%/+45%/+60%/+75% ability range.
• Magnetic : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% Magnetic damage on weapons and abilities. +100%/+200%/+300%/+400%/+500% shields. +20%/+40%/+60%/+75%/+90% shield regeneration rate. -10%/-20%/-30%/-40%/-50% shield regeneration delay.
• Radiation : +25%/+50%/+75%/+100% radiation damage on weapons and abilities. +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%/+25% evasion. Allies project a confusion aura in a 5 meter radius that deals 1/2/3/4/5 Radiation proc(s) every second.

Now you may be asking “isn’t this a bit overpowered?”. I say no, why? Because converted liches spawns randomly and they only stay for 2 minutes. So the rarity of spawns, limited spawn time, and spawn cooldown if they are eventually added to on-call already balances it out. However, in Railjack a balancing mechanism needs to be in place because running 3 Liches at all times may be overpowered with the buffs. Here’s my balancing counter measure : The more liches assigned in crew cause their buffs to conflict reducing their effectiveness by 20% if 2 Liches are assigned and 40% if all 3 crew slot filled with Liches.

2. Randomly spawned Liches now follows a new level on spawn rule : Current enemy level + (10*Lich Rank) to help them scale in the damage department. Right now randomly spawned Liches do miniscule amount of damage in high level, this helps to prevent that while keeping their damage in check. To give an example, Let's say the current minimum enemy level is 150, if a Rank 5 converted lich spawns, the lich will be on level 200.

3. Lich ability damage now follows the enemy level damage scaling formula so they can at least do something in high level.

4. Now onto crew effectiveness. Do you guys remembered that on Tennocon 2019 Kuva Lich Agor Rok is labeled as “Grineer Lich Tech Commander?”.
 

 What if Liches excel in defender and a specialized role? Here’s how it works :
 

• Liches now have a new stat in their profile. Let’s call it “Specialization”. The roles available will be : Pilot, Gunner, Engineer, and a role exclusive to Liches... Raider.
• On conversion they will have the role level based on Lich rank, example a Rank 2 Lich Pilot already starts out with 2 piloting levels, a Rank 3 engineer lich gives 3 engineering levels, etc. They cannot be upgraded with competency points and they do not come with competency points. Exclusive for raiders, they come with Endurance and Damage stat when they are used as crew members.
• Now they have 2 roles that can be assigned in missions, which are defender and the specialized role.
• For Raider they can be teleported to your location on command when you assign the raider role to them and follow you like a bodyguard. You can also command them to Hijack the crewship if the Lich is on a crewship tileset with you.

5. Now for general Lich crew improvements.

• Let us revive them. I can’t believe you guys give this to regular crew while you don’t give this to Liches.
• Let us mod their weapons or if storage is an issues let us swap their weapons with another Kuva weapon we have in the arsenal.
• Give them health regeneration. Again, regular crew have this while Liches don’t.
• Allow them to be healed with the squad renew and form up tactical avionic.

Now Liches are viable as crew members as a specialized crew while regular crew members excel in versatility, so they don’t always compete for the crew slot

That’s the end of my proposal. Hopefully when DE touch Liches in the upcoming Corpus Nemesis some form of suggestions like this manages to get into the game and make converted Liches great in all situatuons. Please keep discussion civil.

TL:DR 

• Give Converted Liches a Special Buff that affects all allies on the level. Setting them apart from ally NPCs. Right now, they are a worse specter.
• Give randomly spawned Converted Liches specter scaling, but better. Allows them to deal damage efficiently if they somehow spawned when the enemy levels are higher than The Lich. Higher lich rank can give additional levels.
• Lich ability damage should scale based on enemy level.
• Make Lich crew members excel in defender + a specialized role. Give them 2 roles instead of being restricted to one. Making Liches excel in specialization helps set them apart from Syndicate Crew members who specialized in versatility. So, they don't compete for the crew slot.
• Give Lich crew members some crucial features that regular syndicate crews have.

 

 

[Dairaion]

That's because i don't believe they need weapon augments. a majority of liches through base stats alone could wreck a majority of enemies, add in the other bonuses and you have a situation where a lich could on mechanics alone take on a army. this is not to say that i am totally averse to it but it interacts too much with what already exists, which means it will cause a resource drain that would disproportionately stress new players getting into the system through further rare mod hoarding or make things too easy where you have a team of liches running around with min-maxed weapons. it turns them into grineer specters. i think insular is best, everything should feel similar but not the same.

as for making them scale to opponents, i am of the opinion they should be leveled up over time rather than any sort of auto adjustment. consistency is key to making the work, to make building them up worthwhile. from my perspective, liches are the grineer answer to warframes, made with the technology the grineer have at hand, they should be handled like a conceptual inversion of a warframe otherwise why not just use a specter. any improvement done to the lich system can't just be a upgrade, because a simple upgrade isn't required, these are enemies stronger than most bosses who you combat until their death or submission, but they also need limits and a slow progression otherwise they just end up as another trinket instead of a hand made personal followers forged in trial and blood. As mentioned in the Phylactery conclusion section, i think liches should feel like Darth Vader, because their stories are very similar. We both get the idea that a lich's presence is a thing of terror, which i think is a sign that DE should focus on the concept. my concern with your variation is what happens if the meta changes? we already had opponents spawn that can become immune to any repeated damage type, if we go the elemental force route where they act similarly to a atronach in TES it limits them against large groups of sentients.

Health regeneration is a good idea i didn't think of that half because i didn't notice they didn't have it. I like the raider concept, i was thinking of something similar but i figured the blood pact would functionally cover that, it also worried me how would you mechanically get the lich in a ship, do they get their own archwings? Space Dargyns? Would railjacks require ramsleds to be fired? I don't like the feel of the teleportation, that was one of the reasons i came up with the blood pact concept, they should follow you wherever like the kingsguard. The multi role thing is a must, your system is not that dissimilar to my simple system. i think if i had to sum up my concerns with the implementation of any lich rework simply it would be that i fear liches staying a object that occurs in the background. this is why i compared them to tuxedo mask, its silly to imagine a 9 foot tall mass produced cloned space marine swooping in to gallantly rescue a interplanetary terrorist that beat him in a fight once. I think that they if you give a reason for people to spend time on liches, on a case by case basis, they'll grow to love them as characters despite their somewhat RNG nature because it's a character you invested into and created. for instance, i pet my kubrows, even though i don't need to, because i like the mutt, i want to feel like my lich is it's own character who is still developing along with me, not because he's a valueable resource, because i chose him from his inception to betray the ones he loved ultimately leading to his self destruction in his attempt to challenge me, allowing me to mold him into the perfect weapon to assert my will across the galaxy. I think we can both agree that when a lich appears it should be a significant moment for the enemy, it should feel like the opponent feels the fear you had when you encountered opponents like the kuva lich, stalker, or the grustrag three for the first time.

[DrivaMain]

43 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

worried me how would you mechanically get the lich in a ship, do they get their own archwings? Space Dargyns? Would railjacks require ramsleds to be fired? I don't like the feel of the teleportation

Join Warp already exist for Tenno players. For simplicity sake, let’s just apply it to them.

 

45 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

as for making them scale to opponents, i am of the opinion they should be leveled up over time rather than any sort of auto adjustment.

I agree with that, I say this only applies to those randomly spawn converted Liches in missions when you enter bleedout. Assuming they haven’t entered a “blood pact” with you. Once the Blood Pact is signed, the level scaling can go away. However, Lich ability damage should scale with enemy level. One of the reason why old Warframe damage abilities sucks is they don’t have any form of scaling. 

We should again be able to mod their Kuva weapons or swap it with a modded Kuva weapon we have in the arsenal.

Also, we should be able to release a Lich from our services. My Converted Lich collection is getting bigger with every Lich conversion and it will be hard managing them. Maybe give a small reward for setting the Lich free.
 

[Dairaion]

releasing a lich from ones service would be a non issue because at the very least he presents a stat boost through Lich shunting.

 

one of the issues with auto adjusting pre blood pact liches is that you run into the tuxedo mask issue, think how  powerful a base lich is currently for clearing the galaxy, if that is implemented you'll have clans handing out lich training wheels for new players. it will introduce new people to deep content.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

2 hours ago, Dairaion said:

That's because i don't believe they need weapon augments. a majority of liches through base stats alone could wreck a majority of enemies, add in the other bonuses and you have a situation where a lich could on mechanics alone take on a army.

 

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

We should again be able to mod their Kuva weapons or swap it with a modded Kuva weapon we have in the arsenal.

Syndicate crewmates have two distinct advantages: they're able to (almost) use the entirety of the player's arsenal & the weapons provided to them can be modded. The solution for this problem is obvious; have the same mechanics in place for Liches & Sisters. Syndicate crewmates are capable of mowing enemies down faster than most of the Lich abilities, that much is a proven fact.

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

However, Lich ability damage should scale with enemy level. One of the reason why old Warframe damage abilities sucks is they don’t have any form of scaling. 

Absolutely agree with that statement. The relevance of abilities hinges on scaling.

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Also, we should be able to release a Lich from our services. My Converted Lich collection is getting bigger with every Lich conversion and it will be hard managing them. Maybe give a small reward for setting the Lich free.

Going into the Converted Lich fiasco, I like the OP's suggestion of a Barracks for Liches (and potentially for Sisters in the future), but there are a few other things I had in mind with that. For starters, we could spruce up the dojo by a new prison ward section. This prison ward would contain various cells where "Captured" (Not Converted) Liches & Sisters could be seen sulking around in their embarrassment & misery, for all to see. Through a retooled Crimson Branch, you could then interact further by "Converting", trading them to players as usual, or setting them free. (The whole Lich trading is some borderline blood sport insanity, come to think of it). Converted Liches/Sisters would consume a crewmate slot, and those not currently active in your crew would still have a chance to spawn in-mission to assist. Though as the OP mentioned, perhaps we could do more by providing those who spawn at random with additional benefits, maybe a spare Robot or Beast to accompany them, or maybe they should outright become companions. One more thought that comes to mind is the use of Kuva in a Helminth-esque system to change Lich abilities. With the greater modding potential that the Plexus provides, we could also make use of more advanced modding to beef Liches up.

Your thread about elemental buffs sounds amazing, I'm surprised that no one else has thought of something like that!

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, Dairaion said:

releasing a lich from ones service would be a non issue because at the very least he presents a stat boost through Lich shunting.

 

one of the issues with auto adjusting pre blood pact liches is that you run into the tuxedo mask issue, think how  powerful a base lich is currently for clearing the galaxy, if that is implemented you'll have clans handing out lich training wheels for new players. it will introduce new people to deep content.

Also, you should use the quote function. I can’t get notified of your response if you do not quote my post.

I don’t get your point on the second paragraph. How is that bad exactly? Isn’t introducing more players to more content good for the health of the game? You can’t hand out Liches to new players because they have to defeat the traded lich first, new players usually do not have the power to do that. Even if you gave a Lich for free, new players cannot defeat that Lich for conversion due to lack of gear power.

[Dairaion]

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I don’t get your point on the second paragraph. How is that bad exactly? Isn’t introducing more players to more content good for the health of the game? You can’t hand out Liches to new players because they have to defeat the traded lich first, new players usually do not have the power to do that. Even if you gave a Lich for free, new players cannot defeat that Lich for conversion due to lack of gear power.

Okay so every game has certain layers of content, most people think that the point of the game is to achieve the content, but with mmo style games the real content is the friends we made along the way. Not joking. If you've ever played skyrim or fallout 4, did you notice how quickly they rushed you into dragons and powered armor respectively?  these things were end game, they didn't know it, but they were. the cost benefit of those systems is so much more rewarding than any other system within those games that it almost forces you to the end. Think about it, for most people their first time playing skyrim was a combination of messing around in between rushing the main quest, any other aspect is a distractioncompared to the story of becoming a avatar of reality. With fallout 4 it was much the same, they hit you with powered armor immediately, then they realized how strong it was so they nerfed it until it flies off of you like pop corn, dooming their endgame. the difference between the replayability of the two games is that skyrim had so many other half built concepts that it accidentally made it's own endgame. that is to say, a good developer would have locked off dragon based content in skyrim because of it's almost unhindered reality warping abilities, but bethesda couldn't help themselves so they give you a small amount of dragon powers right off the back, because of this you beat the quests quickly, the endgame became using exploits to make yourself even stronger because the dragon content was force fed. In the case of fallout 4, it's poor design led to CTDs instead of exploits meaning that after they gave you everything they had the game was functionally empty. Now compare that to New Vegas where you can go through a entire playthrough happily exploring the ins and outs of using exclusively lever actions, or explosives, or the multitudes of 50 level builds based around a specific weapon with some hidden talent the average player wouldn't notice.

 

if you give people access to the endgame early, no matter how little, everything else becomes a distraction. think of how many people grind just to get access to weapons because they're apart of a new one shot build, i did it with atomos, people will do it with liches. the stronger liches become the greater the necessity it is to lock them away. people who play to get powerful objects specifically are not necessarily the kind of people who will stay. furthermore think of what a lich represents, how much happens between them and vor. first you learn what the grineer are, a dying race of cloned ex-slaves that terrorize the galaxy, then you learn they control most of it, and what they don't is controlled by evil space corporations. said evil corporations are only barely equally evil due to their history of organ theft and human experimentation. then you learn there are good grineer called the steel meridian and you'll start to hear the first whispers of whatever a grineer queen is, as you fight your way across the galaxy you learn all sorts of lovecraftian knowledge until finally you get a quest where one of the grineer queens, a giant snake stranger danger woman that wants to wear you like a zentai suit and is using some form of supernatural brainwashing to control samurai space ghost, after you barely beat her you end up being hunted by her stunted deformed little sister who is trying to resurrect her with code red, after all  that you gun down a slightly unusual grineer who, depending on how bad you are at warframe, is a nigh unstoppable god of slaughter who will hunt you down across the galaxy until you beg for help to defeat him.

That is the story as i pertains to the Kuva Lich, by giving new players access to the lich you allow them to at worst cut out everything from vor to lich as background noise and at best consider each of those and any future plot points as little more than speed bumps on the way to easy street. Mind you encountering a lich is okay, it shows people possibilities just like seeing your first kubrow or prime. This is why i chose focus as the initial fuel for the blood pact, the basis of my both possible lich systems, because while the broken scepter only requires beating a few missions, focus requires input, lots of it. if you give people the chance to have anymore function out of liches than they already provide you run the chance of making the bethesda mistake and making everything else easier.

you have a problem, lich. stronger opponent with weird abilities, i bet theres a lich based counter. if this happens too much it becomes a nail, like armor, coptering, and condition overload. nerfs are generally the result of new players getting access to things too easy. If i spawn in with two liches and their 22 thrall army in som high level void survival game and a base volt comes in and sees this, it's fine, i see things i don't understand in warframe all the time, if someone is capable of giving him a guardian angel that buffs him, as per your system, then this is a issue.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, Dairaion said:

Okay so every game has certain layers of content, most people think that the point of the game is to achieve the content, but with mmo style games the real content is the friends we made along the way. Not joking. If you've ever played skyrim or fallout 4, did you notice how quickly they rushed you into dragons and powered armor respectively?  these things were end game, they didn't know it, but they were. the cost benefit of those systems is so much more rewarding than any other system within those games that it almost forces you to the end. Think about it, for most people their first time playing skyrim was a combination of messing around in between rushing the main quest, any other aspect is a distractioncompared to the story of becoming a avatar of reality. With fallout 4 it was much the same, they hit you with powered armor immediately, then they realized how strong it was so they nerfed it until it flies off of you like pop corn, dooming their endgame. the difference between the replayability of the two games is that skyrim had so many other half built concepts that it accidentally made it's own endgame. that is to say, a good developer would have locked off dragon based content in skyrim because of it's almost unhindered reality warping abilities, but bethesda couldn't help themselves so they give you a small amount of dragon powers right off the back, because of this you beat the quests quickly, the endgame became using exploits to make yourself even stronger because the dragon content was force fed. In the case of fallout 4, it's poor design led to CTDs instead of exploits meaning that after they gave you everything they had the game was functionally empty. Now compare that to New Vegas where you can go through a entire playthrough happily exploring the ins and outs of using exclusively lever actions, or explosives, or the multitudes of 50 level builds based around a specific weapon with some hidden talent the average player wouldn't notice.

 

if you give people access to the endgame early, no matter how little, everything else becomes a distraction. think of how many people grind just to get access to weapons because they're apart of a new one shot build, i did it with atomos, people will do it with liches. the stronger liches become the greater the necessity it is to lock them away. people who play to get powerful objects specifically are not necessarily the kind of people who will stay. furthermore think of what a lich represents, how much happens between them and vor. first you learn what the grineer are, a dying race of cloned ex-slaves that terrorize the galaxy, then you learn they control most of it, and what they don't is controlled by evil space corporations. said evil corporations are only barely equally evil due to their history of organ theft and human experimentation. then you learn there are good grineer called the steel meridian and you'll start to hear the first whispers of whatever a grineer queen is, as you fight your way across the galaxy you learn all sorts of lovecraftian knowledge until finally you get a quest where one of the grineer queens, a giant snake stranger danger woman that wants to wear you like a zentai suit and is using some form of supernatural brainwashing to control samurai space ghost, after you barely beat her you end up being hunted by her stunted deformed little sister who is trying to resurrect her with code red, after all  that you gun down a slightly unusual grineer who, depending on how bad you are at warframe, is a nigh unstoppable god of slaughter who will hunt you down across the galaxy until you beg for help to defeat him.

That is the story as i pertains to the Kuva Lich, by giving new players access to the lich you allow them to at worst cut out everything from vor to lich as background noise and at best consider each of those and any future plot points as little more than speed bumps on the way to easy street. Mind you encountering a lich is okay, it shows people possibilities just like seeing your first kubrow or prime. This is why i chose focus as the initial fuel for the blood pact, the basis of my both possible lich systems, because while the broken scepter only requires beating a few missions, focus requires input, lots of it. if you give people the chance to have anymore function out of liches than they already provide you run the chance of making the bethesda mistake and making everything else easier.

you have a problem, lich. stronger opponent with weird abilities, i bet theres a lich based counter. if this happens too much it becomes a nail, like armor, coptering, and condition overload. nerfs are generally the result of new players getting access to things too easy. If i spawn in with two liches and their 22 thrall army in som high level void survival game and a base volt comes in and sees this, it's fine, i see things i don't understand in warframe all the time, if someone is capable of giving him a guardian angel that buffs him, as per your system, then this is a issue.

These buffs aren't even that overpowered. Randomly spawnes Liches are rare and they have a limited spawn duration. If a smol volt managed to convert a rank 5 Lich it won't be that game changing because again the limited spawn duration balances it out.

Not to mention defeating a Lich is a hard journey for a new player. You do know you can't give Liches instantly right? The player has to defeat the lich after trading. Yes, doing the entire murmur and requiem mod grind. 

DE unfortunately has a bad habit of introducing new content that is meant for veterans accessible for new players. Liches are a good example of that. They made Liches require MR 5 to access.

[Dairaion]

4 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

These buffs aren't even that overpowered. Randomly spawnes Liches are rare and they have a limited spawn duration. If a smol volt managed to convert a rank 5 Lich it won't be that game changing because again the limited spawn duration balances it out.

Not to mention defeating a Lich is a hard journey for a new player. You do know you can't give Liches instantly right? The player has to defeat the lich after trading. Yes, doing the entire murmur and requiem mod grind. 

DE unfortunately has a bad habit of introducing new content that is meant for veterans accessible for new players. Liches are a good example of that. They made Liches require MR 5 to access.

Mastery rank is quadratic, with every update MR 5 becomes easier and easier, so it cant be helped.

To be succinct, any lich useful to a oldhat is going to be strong enough breeze through the early game and at that point the game becomes feeding your lich because the lich get stronger faster than you learn to be better. thats why my lich system has the lich get more followers, and help weaken the enemy while the bionics, which strengthen the lich directly would be locked behind RNG and railjack a already iffy system for newcomers.

[Dairaion]

On 2021-05-21 at 5:56 AM, DrivaMain said:

These buffs aren't even that overpowered. Randomly spawnes Liches are rare and they have a limited spawn duration. If a smol volt managed to convert a rank 5 Lich it won't be that game changing because again the limited spawn duration balances it out.

Not to mention defeating a Lich is a hard journey for a new player. You do know you can't give Liches instantly right? The player has to defeat the lich after trading. Yes, doing the entire murmur and requiem mod grind. 

DE unfortunately has a bad habit of introducing new content that is meant for veterans accessible for new players. Liches are a good example of that. They made Liches require MR 5 to access.

I think i figured out a really easy way to block off lich content from new players, thus stopping it from being seen as over powered, thus stopping it from being nerfed.

by the lore, when you defeat a lich you are breaking it's connection to the kuva right? so why not have un-blooded liches require gene stabilizers like kubrow? it opens up a whole new questline as well.

lets say for a moment your improvements were added in. they aren't that strong or wide reaching, simply general improvements to make liches a more integrated aspect of the world. but for someone whose got a single warframe with at level 15 that lich would be helping him ice skate up hill, one could argue. well if that lich loses 10% health and elemental affinity every day without his DNA stabilizers it screws that plan up.

you see, once i accepted that new players could join clans it added in too many variables to account for when it came to shutting off that end game content a lich should be, in your case a helpful friend who was once your foe, in my case a personal sith apprentice. once i accepted this outcome it became a simple problem to solve, what other content already in the game works the way i need liches to to make them harder for new people. the answer is kubrows.

now mind you, i havent used one in years because they're weak and in need of rebalancing because they only become usable for people willing to shell out hundreds of dollars on plat, but i remember the days when a sunika kubrow was a powerful tool for combat, i remembered how each of the different kubrow breeds were useful tools for purpose built tenno that didn't want to change up their play style for individual missions, so apply it for liches.

So what if one of the missions you do, after building the Clan Cantonment requires you to actually go out with your Lich(es) and commit the greatest raid of all time (thats the point right? railjacks are just pirate ships right?) The Great Void Raid.

Mission

The Great Void Raid is a attack on a ancient Orokin Void Relay Hidden in the... Void. The raid would be a attempt to acquire pure orokin era Grineer gene sequence. Personally i believe the quest should canonically take place over the course of several weeks as you and your small lich army slowly wear down it's defenses, find a way inside, then locate the area where the sequencing is stored. The boss could be a Orokin (Lets call him the Wanderer) that had used the power of the void to predict the fall of the orokin and decided to escape. He should appear in 4 forms throughout the quest Grendel, Rhino, Saryn, and Hildryn, all with gender appropriate pure grineer heads visible instead of normal Warframe helmets. The wanderer saw the end and sought to prepare for it, so he stole away with Reez of the tenno and attempted to create the perfect form. There will be 5 levels to the Void Relay, The Liver where you fight the GrendelGrineer! who runs a slave camp where resource processing occures, The Gall run by SarynGrineer! where the grineer worship her and make and wear Prime armor and weapons. The Heart is controlled by a RhinoGrineer! form and is a fortress to protect the spine or central access shaft. The Spine is protected by HildrynGrineer! and is a 15 round defense mission where you and your Liches defend a motor taking you to the top level, the Encephalon. In the Encephalon The Wanderer Greets you in his true form, a Operator encased into a sentient based necramech that you fight to free Reez. From there you discover that The Wanderer had the sequence locked behind a void powered lock. you power it opening up a cephalon who, believing you to be his master in a new body, gives you the information. you and your liches flee into the void allowing you to stabilize the genes or for a greater amount of money and resources completely reverse the damage, turning them into a healthy grineer. 

 

Mechanics 

Prior to this your lich would as previously stated lose 10% of their health and elemental potency per day, this can only be reversed by Sending them to "Indolence" a form of soft retirement where they maintain their experience but cant do anything for 1 day per 10% they are down. from there are seen walking around your Dojo, clearly purturbed. This is sped up the higher your blood pact with the lich is, apprehensive, Agreeable, Amiable, and Ardent see their 10 day cool off reduced to 8,6,4, and 2 respectively. liches are would require a dojo and to get the blood pact going it's unlikely a new player would know and have access to this, as close to a perfect fix as possible, add in a single player railjack mission to fix it and it would pretty much lock the content pretty deep.

 

funny thing is using the multiple lich concept either your or my system would work well with the quest because the enemies would be easy enough to be taken down by a lich but would curbstomp a newbie with stray fire.

[DrivaMain]

4 hours ago, Dairaion said:

I think i figured out a really easy way to block off lich content from new players, thus stopping it from being seen as over powered, thus stopping it from being nerfed.

by the lore, when you defeat a lich you are breaking it's connection to the kuva right? so why not have un-blooded liches require gene stabilizers like kubrow? it opens up a whole new questline as well.

lets say for a moment your improvements were added in. they aren't that strong or wide reaching, simply general improvements to make liches a more integrated aspect of the world. but for someone whose got a single warframe with at level 15 that lich would be helping him ice skate up hill, one could argue. well if that lich loses 10% health and elemental affinity every day without his DNA stabilizers it screws that plan up.

you see, once i accepted that new players could join clans it added in too many variables to account for when it came to shutting off that end game content a lich should be, in your case a helpful friend who was once your foe, in my case a personal sith apprentice. once i accepted this outcome it became a simple problem to solve, what other content already in the game works the way i need liches to to make them harder for new people. the answer is kubrows.

now mind you, i havent used one in years because they're weak and in need of rebalancing because they only become usable for people willing to shell out hundreds of dollars on plat, but i remember the days when a sunika kubrow was a powerful tool for combat, i remembered how each of the different kubrow breeds were useful tools for purpose built tenno that didn't want to change up their play style for individual missions, so apply it for liches.

So what if one of the missions you do, after building the Clan Cantonment requires you to actually go out with your Lich(es) and commit the greatest raid of all time (thats the point right? railjacks are just pirate ships right?) The Great Void Raid.

Mission

The Great Void Raid is a attack on a ancient Orokin Void Relay Hidden in the... Void. The raid would be a attempt to acquire pure orokin era Grineer gene sequence. Personally i believe the quest should canonically take place over the course of several weeks as you and your small lich army slowly wear down it's defenses, find a way inside, then locate the area where the sequencing is stored. The boss could be a Orokin (Lets call him the Wanderer) that had used the power of the void to predict the fall of the orokin and decided to escape. He should appear in 4 forms throughout the quest Grendel, Rhino, Saryn, and Hildryn, all with gender appropriate pure grineer heads visible instead of normal Warframe helmets. The wanderer saw the end and sought to prepare for it, so he stole away with Reez of the tenno and attempted to create the perfect form. There will be 5 levels to the Void Relay, The Liver where you fight the GrendelGrineer! who runs a slave camp where resource processing occures, The Gall run by SarynGrineer! where the grineer worship her and make and wear Prime armor and weapons. The Heart is controlled by a RhinoGrineer! form and is a fortress to protect the spine or central access shaft. The Spine is protected by HildrynGrineer! and is a 15 round defense mission where you and your Liches defend a motor taking you to the top level, the Encephalon. In the Encephalon The Wanderer Greets you in his true form, a Operator encased into a sentient based necramech that you fight to free Reez. From there you discover that The Wanderer had the sequence locked behind a void powered lock. you power it opening up a cephalon who, believing you to be his master in a new body, gives you the information. you and your liches flee into the void allowing you to stabilize the genes or for a greater amount of money and resources completely reverse the damage, turning them into a healthy grineer. 

 

Mechanics 

Prior to this your lich would as previously stated lose 10% of their health and elemental potency per day, this can only be reversed by Sending them to "Indolence" a form of soft retirement where they maintain their experience but cant do anything for 1 day per 10% they are down. from there are seen walking around your Dojo, clearly purturbed. This is sped up the higher your blood pact with the lich is, apprehensive, Agreeable, Amiable, and Ardent see their 10 day cool off reduced to 8,6,4, and 2 respectively. liches are would require a dojo and to get the blood pact going it's unlikely a new player would know and have access to this, as close to a perfect fix as possible, add in a single player railjack mission to fix it and it would pretty much lock the content pretty deep.

 

funny thing is using the multiple lich concept either your or my system would work well with the quest because the enemies would be easy enough to be taken down by a lich but would curbstomp a newbie with stray fire.

That’s a good idea to gate content without changing the current MR restrictions. No objections.

[Dairaion]

9 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

That’s a good idea to gate content without changing the current MR restrictions. No objections.

It also allows us the opportunity to have liches that don't look like palpatine.

[Xikto]

Has the developer EVER implemented/acknowledged a player made rework idea? 

[DrivaMain]

3 hours ago, Xikto said:

Has the developer EVER implemented/acknowledged a player made rework idea? 

Yes, but they usually twist it with the DEWay^TM to prevent “concept plagiarism”. Can you imagine you apply a player made idea and then suddenly said player who made idea file a copyright claim against you and demand unreasonable compensation? It will be a major headache.

[Xikto]

28 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Yes, but they usually twist it with the DEWay^TM to prevent “concept plagiarism”. Can you imagine you apply a player made idea and then suddenly said player who made idea file a copyright claim against you and demand unreasonable compensation? It will be a major headache.

In that case is coming up with a rework even a good idea? wouldn't it just hamper a developer further?

[VoidArkhangel]

En 20/5/2021 a las 10:17, Dairaion dijo:

However, for a more elaborate system one should be able to swap out the body, arms, legs, and head, like lego men these parts would be acquired from vanquished liches, coloration alteration tied to the warframe system is a must.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

13 minutes ago, Xikto said:

In that case is coming up with a rework even a good idea? wouldn't it just hamper a developer further?

That's the million dollar question, especially considering the fact that Chroma, Xaku, the Jat Kusar, the original Silva & Aegis & a few other things I've probably forgotten are all community originals.

 

41 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Yes, but they usually twist it with the DEWay^TM to prevent “concept plagiarism”. Can you imagine you apply a player made idea and then suddenly said player who made idea file a copyright claim against you and demand unreasonable compensation? It will be a major headache.

Just by providing feedback or some form of criticism on the forums, aren't we technically giving some type of informal consent in the hope of improving the game? If DE wants to be more direct about it, they should just clarify their intentions. They really don't need to fabricate some fancy contract deal to use any of my mixed bag of ideas, just using them as a structural basis to improve the game & provide a wonderful experience for the community would be the best form of compensation for myself, but that's just my opinion on the matter.

[Dairaion]

10 minutes ago, Xikto said:

In that case is coming up with a rework even a good idea? wouldn't it just hamper a developer further?

Hamper what? the next prime frame? there is nothing coming down the pipe like this and it's a problem that needs fixing. Lich followers need to be a thing, it's simple and gives the people what they want.

[Dairaion]

6 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Grineer Custodes, think about it, Giant Gold Men that follow you around while you punch people.

[Dairaion]

9 hours ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

Just by providing feedback or some form of criticism on the forums, aren't we technically giving some type of informal consent in the hope of improving the game? If DE wants to be more direct about it, they should just clarify their intentions. They really don't need to fabricate some fancy contract deal to use any of my mixed bag of ideas, just using them as a structural basis to improve the game & provide a wonderful experience for the community would be the best form of compensation for myself, but that's just my opinion on the matter.

This. I just want my liches to be cool. i'm so bored with them and they shouldn't be this boring. they could, in their initial state curbstomp every traditional boss and the army that follows them, i just want my liches to live up to that. 

 

i also want a grineer dojo to match, let me live in this world.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

10 hours ago, Dairaion said:

i also want a grineer dojo to match, let me live in this world.

You had me at Grineer dojo.

[OverlordNuggets]

This is very interesting! I like this feature idea! I haven't touched the railjack content yet, but I do look forward to it! Although, I would still be very grateful if we only get to personalize our converted kuva liches and bring them into missions by equipping them as a companion in the arsenal. It might go a long way for us to like our converted liches a bit more

[DrivaMain]

26 minutes ago, OverlordNuggets said:

This is very interesting! I like this feature idea! I haven't touched the railjack content yet, but I do look forward to it! Although, I would still be very grateful if we only get to personalize our converted kuva liches and bring them into missions by equipping them as a companion in the arsenal. It might go a long way for us to like our converted liches a bit more

We can already put them On Call so we can summon them at will, but their firepower is really lacking.

[Dairaion]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

We can already put them On Call so we can summon them at will, but their firepower is really lacking.

That and lets be honest, On Call is meant to add functionality to Railjack, lich crewmates is meant to add functionality to railjack. my concept makes lich railjack content, even improvements 1/6th of what liches do, because railjack is tertiary. If you want to have liches spawn into matches you should be able to, regardless of railjack involvement, because right now liches are themselves at best easier grineer themed void keys, at worst annoyances. They have no real point in the game other than being a cool way to re-release stronger variants of weapons even rivens couldn't sell. They exist, floating on their own with no ties and no greater purpose.