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Nidus Prime - the future of lore


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4 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

 

Just because the asteroid blew up near Earth doesn't mean its fragments are going to stay there.

No, that actually is what it usually means. Earth is a pretty big gravity well, as is Venus, and especially the Sun. Even if it was on its way back out of the system, Jupiter or Saturn are pretty strong gravity wells. For it to end up as a trans-Neptunian object, heavily implies that's where the battle took place for real, and the Earth part was embellished later

Doubly so since Earth was not a strategic target. If the Telamon temple was in fact trying to ruin Earth, it would be a symbolic gesture more than anything (like how the Burning of Washington in 1812 didn't really accomplish much). The Orokin had been fighting Sentients on Earth, and were practicing a very literal scorched earth policy -- those giant trees that make up the Earth Tilesets in game? Those are biological weapons. Earth was so badly ruined, most of the Orokin cities moved to Lua or deep space or Europa

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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-21 at 1:28 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Valkyr was a disaster lore-wise for a lot more reasons than that though. 

Let's not even get started on how difficult it is to retcon the Alad V experiments versus the "this is what you really are" moment, without twisting yourself into mental pretzels. 

Who Valkyr was before Alad is just the icing on the cake when it comes to that whole mess, I'm not surprised DE just shrugged their shoulders and gave up on that whole thing. They painted themselves right into a corner. 

There's not much to twist or get confused. Alad had dissected other Warframes before, but all he found was some fleshy lumps. It confused him, as Alad believes the Tenno ARE the Warframes, not that the Tenno are suits like some of the other factions believe (like Maroo or Lech Kril, who are technically more correct but still wrong). That's why he wanted to figure out what was at the Reservoir in the Second Dream, he didn't know that the Operators were even a thing and just assumed we were just the bio-mechanical suits walking around. He knew we were being piloted or controlled (hence why he dissected Warframes and put Valkyr through torturous experiments), but he still hasn't figured out HOW we control the Warframes, as most of the factions are unaware of Transference. It's quite likely that he assumed we're controlled by some kind of technology, not Void magic, hence why he didn't understand. Even if he managed to salvage a Transference Bolt I doubt he'd actually understand what it was used for, and it may explain why he abandoned Zanuka and went for the Infested route, as he knew we were biological at our core and wanted to figure out how we functioned.

Valkyr Gersemi is that very same Valkyr Alad V stripped for parts, but as we know, the base and Prime versions of Warframes can have pretty similar or very different looks. We also know Alad is fascinated with us and Orokin tech in general, as he's tried to replicate it as best he can with Helios and Lockjaw & Sol. Is it that weird to say that he tried to make base Valkyr look more like her Prime in one of his attempts to better understand Warframes in general? Remember that "forged" also means "copied fraudulently" or "faked", it wouldn't be all that out of character for a greedy Corpus head to try and replicate Orokin tech to make a ton of money. People also seem to forget that a Prime Warframe and a Base Warframe are two separate entities, there's no reason why base Valkyr couldn't have been changed by Alad but still functioned the same as her Prime, as being angry and violent is her schtick. Just because she got mad at Alad specifically doesn't mean her kit had to change, it just means the base Valkyr we have is pissed at Alad, and our Prime is just pissed in general. Yet as already stated, I don't think that a Warframe's mental state directly correlates to their abilities, and considering how little Alad knows about us I don't see how he could essentially break a Warframe down and put it back together with completely new abilities when he doesn't even know how we have them.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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7 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Is it that weird to say that he tried to make base Valkyr look more like her Prime in one of his attempts to better understand Warframes in general?

This is the only part of your comment I disagree with. Valkyr Prime (VP) looks much more like Gersemi Valkyr (GV) than Alad Valkyr (AV). The only part of VP that looks like AV is her shins, and the rest is either parts from GV or new golden bits that are completely unique

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9 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

There's not much to twist or get confused ... when he doesn't even know how we have them.

I didn't backtrack all the previous replies but IMO you have the correct idea between Valkyr, Gersemi Valkyr and Valkyr Prime. 

DE also didn't specify at all how warframes and their abilities work and also the relationship between mass-produced warframes and their unique individual counterpart. Umbra is obviously full of rage but he still works mostly like a typical Excalibur despite his sentience, so emotions aren't necessary to have anything to do with warframe abilities. It's very possible that the pre-experiment Valkyr and her Prime counterpart just have those abilities all the time and the only thing Alad V changed was her appearance.

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On 2021-05-22 at 1:42 AM, TARINunit9 said:

The Silver Grove quest HEAVILY implies that Titania Not-Prime was created first

Well no, that's the thing; the Lore doesn't imply that as heavily as you'd think. To flip that, it implies quite the opposite, that Ballas wasn't the sole creator of Primes. The only confusion comes with the part where we pull Titania's blueprint from its creator's resting place and create 'base' Titania from it.

That's where the 'current Era' versus 'Orokin Era' explanation comes in.

The blueprints we get are the same, that's how the powers are exactly the same, but we substitute the materials based on what will do that using our current era tech. It's literally as simple as that, until we pull the actual Orokin Era versions through with Relics, we're limited in the quality of materials.

It explains the gap simply and effectively, without the reaching of other theories. That's why I said it came after the 'heckofalot' of discussion; simplest theory that explains the most possibilities won out.

I mean, it even answers these points:

On 2021-05-22 at 1:45 AM, GrayArchon said:

we've seen a base Octavia during the Old War, and a lot of the quests and other stories (Leverian etc) imply that there were other base warframes running around. The 'form', as you put it, of these frames is not consistent with the golden Orokin aesthetic of Prime warframes.

Yes? But at what point does this counter the theory? Form does not equal Function in the Warframe. Deluxe Skins and removing 'Prime Details' are something we know exist in the game, so it just means that how they look is not what defines a Prime.

What defines a Prime is how they're made. So this:

On 2021-05-22 at 1:45 AM, GrayArchon said:

The materials we use to build them are not Orokin-era materials (with the possible exception of Orokin Cells), and the technology we use is Ordis' Foundry (which does sort of date from the Orokin era).

Is in fact supporting my point, not a counter to it. Because why else are the Base and the Prime parts created using different materials at all? Why does a base Vauban take values of Alloy, Rubedo, Ferrite and Salvage in the 1000 or less values, while a Vauban Prime (with the exact same abilities) take values of Alloy in the 30,000 range, 16,000 Salvage, 8000 Rubedo, 9000 Cryotic and then have to lighten the Chassis with 7000 Oxium|? That's literal Orokin excess to a perfect 'T'. And all for what? An extra 25 base Shields and 50 base Armour.

We use modern substitutions because they're logically able to create the function of the Warframe, but it's when we get the actual individual part blueprints from Relics that we see just what kind of silly version the Orokin used.

As I said, it's just the simplest explanation.

Oh, and one more thing.

On 2021-05-22 at 1:45 AM, GrayArchon said:

I don't see any reference to 'a' Gauss in the Leverian.

Apologies, the line was 'this particular one'

As read in 'Gauss. Front edge: smooth heat-resistant composites. Trailing edges: streamlined, foiled, this particular one vaguely warped by extreme heat stress. The Saint of Altra.'

It means that the way the observer recognised 'the Saint of Altra' was that it had differences between it and another Gauss that could have been there.

That, along with the fact that we canonically see Spectres of frames with Deluxe appearances, frames without Prime Details in the Orokin Era (and can remove Prime details in current Era), and even the very simple fact that the early Warframes were placed as an Army when 45 known frames definitely doesn't count as an army...

The Orokin made duplicates, they made custom variations, they gave frames away as gifts... They weren't unique, even if they were the golden versions.

So the only explanation of what defines that difference between a Prime and a 'base' that we create literally can only be how they were made. What parts went into the Systems, Chassis and Neuroptics.

Even in real life, you can make a TV cable with just copper wire and it works. But if you plate that wire, or can afford to make it out of an even better conductor, it looks shiny and it costs more, and all you'll get is still a TV cable. It'll perform a little better as a TV cable, but it's still just a TV cable.

So you can make a frame using the original Orokin method and it's the same Warframe. It's shinier and has more glitter, and it may even have better base stats, but it's still that Warframe.

See?

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3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well no, that's the thing; the Lore doesn't imply that as heavily as you'd think. To flip that, it implies quite the opposite, that Ballas wasn't the sole creator of Primes. The only confusion comes with the part where we pull Titania's blueprint from its creator's resting place and create 'base' Titania from it.

That's where the 'current Era' versus 'Orokin Era' explanation comes in.

You don't really need the 'current Era' versus 'Orokin Era' explanation, when Sylvana outright says "I buried my daughter here in my roots" and then you dig it up and it's not a Prime

4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The blueprints we get are the same, that's how the powers are exactly the same, but we substitute the materials based on what will do that using our current era tech.

We really don't. I know it's like 80% gameplay and 20% lore, but the blueprints for Non-Prime versus Prime really do seem to be completely different blueprints

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Most of the Leverian stories include details that let us place them before or during the Collapse. I'm not sure there's much ambiguity there. Some of the other stories, like the Inaros legend, are indeed harder to date.

Oh indeed, I'd just like to pinpoint them more accurately since we have sentient frames early on and then those controlled by the tenno later on, long before the collapse. Grendel's story for instance is an obvious collapse story, but with someone like Ivara it is harder, is it about an actual living frame or one controlled by a tenno?

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

We really don't. I know it's like 80% gameplay and 20% lore, but the blueprints for Non-Prime versus Prime really do seem to be completely different blueprints

And a thing to note is that the way we obtain our frames is the way that a single specific tenno obtains his/her normal frame. Since the story is specific to a single tenno. There is actually no rule for what the original is that we base our blueprints on.

Revenant = Blueprint obtained through a specter.

Protea = Same deal as Revenant.

Titania = Very very likely from a bio-drone from the pre-tenno ere given how the frame acts in the story. Less likely, it is a specter we get it from.

Inaros = Either a bio-drone, a prime or a normal, we dont know since we dont know how many Inaros versions are actually part of the stretched out story.

Limbo = Tenno-frame gone bye-bye that we again find.

Gara = Scraps from the tenno-frame that got sacrificed to nuke the sentient on the plains.

Boss drops = Tenno-frame spoils of war in possession of the boss.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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Posted (edited)
On 2021-05-21 at 1:47 AM, Dhrekr said:

I think that DE profundly, deeply, truly doesn't care about the lore behind Primes.

 

Also, I remember people being all triggered by the thought of Nova Prime or of Valkyr Prime. And - guess what. DE didn't care about the lore behind those Primes. And, after a couple of years, none of us really care about it either.

I bet you that three years after the release of Nidus Prime no one will even remember having cared about something so irrelevant.

Nidus Prime truly has the potential to represent the rot/decay/corruption beneath that veneer of beauty that is the Symbol of the Orokin.  Imagine an aging copper sculpture with a human face similar to a Greek warrior or David or Ballas with a beard with minimal armor, showing off a physique…maybe the Collossus of Rhoades…aging blues and oxidizing greens to suggest Orokin skin…with glowing masses of tentacles struggling to break through from beneath.

The more pure, less degraded version of the Helminth that they try to control and hide even more tightly behind the lie of purity which fails that much more spectacularly and defies the standard repetitive Orokin aesthetic.

Edited by (PSN)Silverback73
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13 minutes ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

Nidus Prime truly has the potential to represent the rot/decay/corruption beneath that veneer of beauty that is the Symbol of the Orokin.  Imagine an aging copper sculpture with a human face similar to a Greek warrior or David or Ballas with a beard with minimal armor, showing off a physique…maybe the Collossus of Rhoades…aging blues and oxidizing greens to suggest Orokin skin…with glowing masses of tentacles struggling to break through from beneath.

The more pure, less degraded version of the Helminth that they try to control and hide even more tightly behind the lie of purity which fails that much more spectacularly and defies the standard repetitive Orokin aesthetic.

We already have a version of Nidus that represents the rot/ decay/ corruption.

Now it’s time for Nidus prime.

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6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Titania = Very very likely from a bio-drone from the pre-tenno ere given how the frame acts in the story. Less likely, it is a specter we get it from.

Inaros = Either a bio-drone, a prime or a normal, we dont know since we dont know how many Inaros versions are actually part of the stretched out story.

No, those two were much later. Titania was smack-dab in the middle of the Old War. And Inaros was during the Fall. And as far as I can tell, we aren't just getting schematics. We are digging up the actual corpses, and Ordis is calculating how to give them fresh clone bodies

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is the only part of your comment I disagree with. Valkyr Prime (VP) looks much more like Gersemi Valkyr (GV) than Alad Valkyr (AV). The only part of VP that looks like AV is her shins, and the rest is either parts from GV or new golden bits that are completely unique

9KpFHBo.png

Can't say I agree there. From what I can tell;

- Base Valkyr received a neck brace as well as two arm braces, features that are on her Prime but not on Gersemi.
- Base Valkyr has Valkyr's Bonds, which are akin to Chordalla Prime Bonds on her Prime that are not present on Gersemi either.
- Base Valkyr has metal rods pushed through her legs and knees, items that are missing on Gersemi but that can also be found on her Prime (her Prime features spikes, however).
- Base Valkyr lacks the "elbow blade" Gersemi has, making her appear again more like her Prime.
- Base Valkyr's neck brace points upward and goes for a more "spread-out" look than a "streamlined" look that Gersemi's helmet has.
- Gersemi Valkyr has a longer tail with a completely different shape than her Prime, which has been completely removed on Base Valkyr to look more akin to her Prime.
- Gersemi's "shoulder blades" are completely removed and her shoulder area has been widened, to simulate the "shoulder spikes" of her Prime.
- Base Valkyr's rib area has been widened instead of closed as it was with Gersemi. Her breast area on Gersemi also features "gills" that are completely missing from her Prime.

From what I can tell, it looks a lot like Gersemi Valkyr (hence the name) was not a normal Valkyr design, but shared a lot of the basic structure with her Prime for obvious reasons. Seeing that, since he had already skinned and started recycling Base Valkyr, why not make her look more like her Prime to see if you can gleam anything new from it? If that doesn't help you out, who cares, maybe you can pawn her off for more.

There's also the far more likely concept of this being more of a coincidental irony. The Orokin tried to chain up the beast known as Valkyr and she broke free (well, the Tenno in general, but Valkyr is their sort of "personification" of that ideal, a chained up monster they have control over that can release and capture at anytime), Alad tried to do the same thing (hence the similar appearance) and she broke free. It's not too out of the blue knowing DE with Grendel's story or the saps from Grandma's Story.

Edited by (XBOX)Graysmog
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13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Trailing edges: streamlined, foiled, this particular one vaguely warped by extreme heat stress.

I read this as "this particular trailing edge is warped", not "this particular Gauss".

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It means that the way the observer recognised 'the Saint of Altra' was that it had differences between it and another Gauss that could have been there.

If you read the Leverian entries, it becomes pretty clear that Drusus thinks each warframe was an individual. He says "Ash was X" and "Nova did Y", instead of an Ash or the Nova. I doubt he had the idea that there was another Gauss out there.

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Boss drops = Tenno-frame spoils of war in possession of the boss.

Also keep in mind that for many of the boss drop warframes, you actually get the warframe blueprint from the Market, meaning it's something that a random arms dealer was hanging on to until you ponied up the right price.

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, those two were much later. Titania was smack-dab in the middle of the Old War. And Inaros was during the Fall.

The Old War covers basically the entire pre-Collapse period. There are no warframes from before the Old War. Inaros was active (according to the legends) twice: once when he fought the Orokin (so clearly during the Old War), and once when he fought the Infested (time period unknown, could be during the Old War, Collapse, or after). The fact that the Infested were present doesn't conclusively date the second encounter to the Collapse, since Infestation outbreaks happened even during the height of Orokin rule, as we see on Earth.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

- Base Valkyr received a neck brace as well as two arm braces, features that are on her Prime but not on Gersemi.

Gersemi and Prime both have chockers, and they're MUCH smaller than Alad's neck brace

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

- Base Valkyr has metal rods pushed through her legs and knees, items that are missing on Gersemi but that can also be found on her Prime (her Prime features spikes, however).

I don't see any spikes rammed through Prime, just the usual golden doodlybobs

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

- Base Valkyr's neck brace points upward and goes for a more "spread-out" look than a "streamlined" look that Gersemi's helmet has.

I don't see any different major different between all three of them, I think you're grasping at straws here

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

- Base Valkyr's rib area has been widened instead of closed as it was with Gersemi. Her breast area on Gersemi also features "gills" that are completely missing from her Prime.

Prime has two gills, I'm looking at them in game right now. Only difference is they're partially covered by her white dress

-----

17 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Inaros was active (according to the legends) twice: once when he fought the Orokin (so clearly during the Old War), and once when he fought the Infested (time period unknown, could be during the Old War, Collapse, or after). The fact that the Infested were present doesn't conclusively date the second encounter to the Collapse, since Infestation outbreaks happened even during the height of Orokin rule, as we see on Earth.

I was dating his FIRST encounter to the Fall, since Inaros kills all the Orokin soldiers on Mars and the Orokin don't just immediately garrison some more

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14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You don't really need the 'current Era' versus 'Orokin Era' explanation, when Sylvana outright says "I buried my daughter here in my roots" and then you dig it up and it's not a Prime

You dig it up and it's a blueprint.

We don't automatically get the entire Warframe, if we did, it would have been the Prime.

14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

We really don't. I know it's like 80% gameplay and 20% lore, but the blueprints for Non-Prime versus Prime really do seem to be completely different blueprints

Except they produce the exact same effects.

Which is literally what I've been saying.

Two different methods to achieve the things we're actually achieving.

If the abilities, at any point in Warframe's history, were allowed to be different between the Prime and the 'base', then there would be that distinction. That would 100% support the idea that the 'base' frames were created and then handed to Ballas to make Primes.

It would also make the anger over Valkyr's Prime looking like the modern era one actually relevant, because it literally couldn't do that.

As it stands, with the two different methods of producing a Warframe granting identical functions, with one having more expensive parts that give it better base stats, and one using far less and still getting there anyway...

There's logically only one way that could happen; the Blueprints can be made with substitutions.

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4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You dig it up and it's a blueprint.

We don't automatically get the entire Warframe, if we did, it would have been the Prime.

I don't think you and I are communicating on the same wavelength. My thesis is that no, it WOULDN'T have been the Prime.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

No, those two were much later. Titania was smack-dab in the middle of the Old War. And Inaros was during the Fall. And as far as I can tell, we aren't just getting schematics. We are digging up the actual corpses, and Ordis is calculating how to give them fresh clone bodies

According to the lore Titania is presumably one of the very first frames to have ever been made. Reasons we know this is.

1. Margulis is still alive.

2. The Tenno are still not the Tenno, they are still just Zariman survivors under rehabilitation.

3. We know from other sources that it is Ballas who completes Margulis transference research post- her execution and actually weaponizes it. Prior to that the transference project of Margulis was ment to help the Ten-Zero survivors to control their powers.

4. Ballas orders the work surrounding surrogates to instead be used to make Warframes. And since Margulis is still alive and the tenno are still just poor survivors this is all at the very beginning of the old war, or well, the very beginning of when frames where thought of.

Then regarding "digging up". There arent many frames we actually get our hands on at all. Most are tinkered with based on echos or specters. As @GrayArchonpoints out, we get many of them through arms dealers or similar. Some are even fully "mint" tenno versions, like those we obtain from the Dojo, that can either be explained by reverse engineered Primes, or other Tenno that have experienced a different origin story and have made them available through their clan to clan members.

edit: We have to remember that just because our specific tenno experiences something one way, it doesnt mean it applies to all other tenno out there, nor that there is only a single one of each frame or a single way they are obtained. There may be several different stories regarding how some tenno have obtained their tenno-Inaros version for instance, our Tenno simply gets it through contacts with Baro. Someone else may have been far more tech savvy and obtained their during the collapse from a reverse engineering project that originated by picking an Inaros Prime apart so several Tenno could use the model against the Orokin by utilizing lower grade materials to make a copy. One of these copies may also be the one we get ours from through the actual Sands of Inaros quest.

edit2: The only frame where multiple versions cannot be explained is Umbra.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

According to the lore Titania is presumably one of the very first frames to have ever been made. Reasons we know this is.

1. Margulis is still alive.

2. The Tenno are still not the Tenno, they are still just Zariman survivors under rehabilitation.

 

I disagree. Sylvana speaks as if the Warframe project has been going on for some time before she was drafted, and then she worked on it for quite a while. She also explicitly says she created several Warframes before Titania

Yes, the Margulis thing is weird. Her lore is so twisted that either a) Sylvana is actually working with Natah, or b) Margulis died several hundred years after she died

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On 2021-05-21 at 2:47 AM, Dhrekr said:

Also, I remember people being all triggered by the thought of Nova Prime

Honest question from a not-so-ancient (~3 years) player: what is there to be triggered about Nova Prime?

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21 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't think you and I are communicating on the same wavelength. My thesis is that no, it WOULDN'T have been the Prime.

Well yes, that's exactly where we're disagreeing.

But!

Here's the reason that I believe your thesis is incorrect: Given all of the different ways we attain Warframes, that still get a Prime no matter what, and given that the only thing that actually differentiates a Prime from a non-Prime is the materials in its construction (which only affect base stats like Armour, Shields and so on, not effectiveness of their powers like Range, Duration etc.), then the only thing that defines 'Prime' in the Warframe universe is the Era. So what if the frame was buried, which we then scan the remains of that frame for the Blueprint? As long as it was created in the Orokin Era... that's what makes it a Prime.

Our problem is that we can't make Primes in the current Era without the specifics. Getting real, duplicated-by-Quantum-Nonsense parts lists and schematics from the Orokin Era out of the Quantum Nonsense Relics, that's how we get those specifics and create a Warframe to the original methods.

The basis is that there's really absolutely nothing special about Primes apart from how they're put together. You can take the Prime details off them, you can skin them with Deluxe skins. And the only 5% of DE's out-of-Lore interference is that you can't skin a non-Prime with Prime details, to keep that appearance as something more unique and desirable. If DE had wanted to really let things go, they would have allowed anyone who bought the Prime to apply the details to the non-Prime frames too.

So Nidus, Titania, Xaku, all of them, they were Primes. Created during the Orokin Era.

Every blueprint we get of a non-Prime is just a scan of the Prime with our current-Era tech figuring out what materials to use to put it together.

I do appreciate that this goes counter to your theory.

However your theory, that the frames were created as non-Prime, would literally invalidate the genuine, stated both outside and inside the game by the creators of this game, fact that every frame has a Prime.

If it were the case, then the Silver Grove would literally invalidate Titania Prime. Meanwhile, my theory validates the existence of it, and also accounts for the other weird ones like Valkyr and Xaku.

I think, just by the evidence of Titania Prime existing in the game, that my theory is edging yours out for the likely explanation. 

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58 minutes ago, p_silveira said:

Honest question from a not-so-ancient (~3 years) player: what is there to be triggered about Nova Prime?

Because Nova was the first Warframe made by the Design Council, called "Tenno Council". You can see that in her Nova Profile Trailer from Update 9.

Apparently, DE paying homage and making Lotus mention that she was made by them and saying "Her very existence is a result of Tenno High Council research" made her unable to be Primed.

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