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Nidus Prime - the future of lore


.GRUSB

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19 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I disagree. Sylvana speaks as if the Warframe project has been going on for some time before she was drafted, and then she worked on it for quite a while. She also explicitly says she created several Warframes before Titania

Yes, the Margulis thing is weird. Her lore is so twisted that either a) Sylvana is actually working with Natah, or b) Margulis died several hundred years after she died

Re-read the story. She isnt working on the Warframe project when she joins. She is working on the surrogate project (Helminth puppets) to help the children, something she looks forward to since the same tech (Helminth) can possibly be the thing to let Sylvana revitalize Earth. The story even describes the part when Ballas steps in and tells them to stop and to focus the tech on his new project the warframes. Sylvana comments on this in relation to the creation of her Titania, how something ment to bring life now instead will create abominations ment for destructions or along those lines.

And there is nothing wierd at all with Margulis, shes alive exactly at the moment she is ment to in the story. Ballas doesnt give a crap about the kids she tries to help, but he sees the potential in her surrogate work and how it can be used in other ways. He doesnt realize the potential of the kids until after he has Margulis executed and after the scientist in the Rhino Prime lore "accidentally" discovers the effect the zariman survivors have on frames. At that point Ballas goes back to finish what Margulis tried to do while also turning the kids into weapons together with his frames.

13 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Because Nova was the first Warframe made by the Design Council, called "Tenno Council". You can see that in her Nova Profile Trailer from Update 9.

Apparently, DE paying homage and making Lotus mention that she was made by them and saying "Her very existence is a result of Tenno High Council research" made her unable to be Primed.

Though that doesnt imply that there cannot be a prime, just that there cannot be a proto/bio-drone of her. The tenno were a large part of the Orokin empire, so it is very possible that a Tenno High Council would be an actual lore thing that presented a Frame idea to the Orokin that got made. Since who knows what the Tenno could use on the battlefield better than the Tenno themselves? Such a frame would be a Prime. Just as there are several Tenno designed Prime weapons in the arsenal, designed and built to fit the martial nature of the Tenno culture along with their frames.

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13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If that theory is true, then the Prime cannot exist, because it was never handed over to Ballas to become Prime, it died at the Grove.

True but also not true since that oversimplifies the whole thing. That pretty much implies that Sylvana took off to Earth directly and Titania followed. There is a large gap in time between the creation of her and Sylvana leaving for Earth. Plenty of time for vital scans, imprints and all other fancy stuff to be made regarding Titania. Which gives plenty of data for a Prime recreation of the frame. If what you say would apply it would apply to nearly every single frame that had an original human host, since nearly all of them went coo-coo for cocopuffs early on. So we would have nearly no Primes at all.

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18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Though that doesnt imply that there cannot be a prime, just that there cannot be a proto/bio-drone of her. The tenno were a large part of the Orokin empire, so it is very possible that a Tenno High Council would be an actual lore thing that presented a Frame idea to the Orokin that got made. Since who knows what the Tenno could use on the battlefield better than the Tenno themselves? Such a frame would be a Prime. Just as there are several Tenno designed Prime weapons in the arsenal, designed and built to fit the martial nature of the Tenno culture along with their frames

We see a Nova Prime on the Erra quest

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12 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

Many people argued that "she wasn't created by the Orokin TECNICUHLLY so she SURELY doesn't have a Prime hurr durr respect the LORE!!"

Oh. Wow.
Thanks for the clarification!
(and thanks to DE for making her Prime anyways lolz).

 

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6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Re-read the story. She isnt working on the Warframe project when she joins. She is working on the surrogate project (Helminth puppets) to help the children, something she looks forward to since the same tech (Helminth) can possibly be the thing to let Sylvana revitalize Earth. The story even describes the part when Ballas steps in and tells them to stop and to focus the tech on his new project the warframes. Sylvana comments on this in relation to the creation of her Titania, how something ment to bring life now instead will create abominations ment for destructions or along those lines.

Mmmm, yes and no. She says that it SEEMED to be a therapy project, but she learned very quickly that they are actually Warframes and the entire thing was a front to build more weapons. She mentions that long before ever meeting Ballas. But as for where you are correct, she does imply the kids are all awake, meaning the real Margulis would be alive if those implications are intended

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22 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

If the blueprints were interchangeable like that, we would be able to replace the Zephyr in the dojo with a Zephyr Prime.

Why not? I see no reason why this wouldn't be possible in the Lore.

But then that's the actual game vs lore function. In the lore, then yes, you really could. In the game, no, because you have to earn it from Relics.

That's literally the only reason we don't, with all of the frames we have Clan research for.

22 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

different strain of Helminth

And here's where you've completely lost me. The Helminth is the specific strain. There's no sub-sections of Helminth. Helminth is the sub-section.

They aren't different. Definitely not in that respect.

That's specifically why the powers are the same in the first place. Because it's all driven by the Helminth strain of Infestation.

The only difference between a Prime and a non-Prime is the parts added to that bio-engineering construct. It's not jury rigged, it's literally a finished product performing the exact same task. It's just not as physically durable as the original because we're using our current, lesser, tech to figure out how to do it.

And none of your points change the earlier point. The theory that the non-Primes and Primes are different just falls apart with Titania, because if they are different, then Titania Prime can't exist. The original creation of Silvana was killed and buried in the Silver Grove. So if it wasn't the Prime, then how would Ballas have made a Prime from it if it was dead and gone? It doesn't make sense.

But if it was a Prime, then that would explain how we get Prime blueprints out of the Relics (which, again, are quantum-linked to the original parts, allowing us to ignore time itself) because it would mean that the original blueprints for the parts produce the Prime frame.

If the non-Prime was the original, then we wouldn't be getting a Prime out of the Relics. 

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The theory that the non-Primes and Primes are different just falls apart with Titania, because if they are different, then Titania Prime can't exist. The original creation of Silvana was killed and buried in the Silver Grove. So if it wasn't the Prime, then how would Ballas have made a Prime from it if it was dead and gone? It doesn't make sense.

...because he had decades to build Titania Prime. Silvana didn't turn into a tree, get attacked by the Orokin, then give Titania Non-Prime a burial over the course of like three hours. All of the Titanias fought for YEARS in the Old War before the very first one (we assume it was the very first one because narrative) caught wind of Silvana being attacked and flew in to save her

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And here's where you've completely lost me. The Helminth is the specific strain. There's no sub-sections of Helminth. Helminth is the sub-section.

I dunno man, after Deimos I get the feeling there are as many strains of Infested as there are stars in the sky. There is supposed to only be one strain of Infested on that moon, but it has already split off into Vome, Fass, and many different flavors of Feral (wildlife like Predasites). The idea that there is a single organized hive mind even within a larger category like Helminth has completely broken down; these things mutate and break away like crazy, and that was before Ballas and Alad V learned how to cultivate more of them. I would hedge my bets right now that Excalibur and Nyx have different Helminth strains, to say nothing of Excalibur and Excalibur Prime.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

But if it was a Prime, then that would explain how we get Prime blueprints out of the Relics (which, again, are quantum-linked to the original parts, allowing us to ignore time itself) because it would mean that the original blueprints for the parts produce the Prime frame.

If the non-Prime was the original, then we wouldn't be getting a Prime out of the Relics. 

It's not that I disagree, it's that I see the reverse happening.

I see Titania Not Prime coming first because it was an experiment. She was the jury rigged one. When you call the Not Primes the DIY projects, I say "Yes, Silvana literally did it herself. And then Ballas took them and made them better." It was these superior Ballas versions, the Primes, that get put into the relics

You know, like how actual Research and Development works. As much as "prototype" has come to mean "superior" to the layman, among actual engineers it means "inferior." It's the final version made of improvised parts that is supposed to prove that the final version can come off an assembly line.

That's what is buried in the Silver Grove. The prototype and schematics (Silvana even says that she took her "somatics" with her) that might not be good as the Prime version Ballas finished up, but that somebody with less budget but a decent workshop (i.e. us Tenno) can actually build

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16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Mmmm, yes and no. She says that it SEEMED to be a therapy project, but she learned very quickly that they are actually Warframes and the entire thing was a front to build more weapons. She mentions that long before ever meeting Ballas. But as for where you are correct, she does imply the kids are all awake, meaning the real Margulis would be alive if those implications are intended

What part of the story do you get that from? It was a therapy project as she says, she specifies that it is "being turned into a weapon". Which implies it was indeed what it seemed to be, a  therapeutic project from the start and when she joined.

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

That's what is buried in the Silver Grove. The prototype and schematics (Silvana even says that she took her "somatics" with her) that might not be good as the Prime version Ballas finished up, but that somebody with less budget but a decent workshop (i.e. us Tenno) can actually build

We dig up the actual Titania, but it has nothing to do with the somatics, since those things are just parts of the transference project. It is one of the things that allows for the Tenno to communicate with the helminth surrogates, the whole somatic link thing. The second being the transference bolt which helps with the whole transference thing by locking away remnant memories and probably the sentience of Helminth (yes we know it lives and thinks). Which is likely the explaination why the Rhino Prime entry shows the tenno effect on the beast, since it is also made of the same tech that the surrogates are, so very likely has the somatics in it but not the transference bolt (since the kids arent planned to control any frame yet), which is why it is described in other lore that the tenno only have limited control over the first frames.

Reason Silvana brings the somatics with her along with the apothics is so she can link with Earth and kick start some healing/regrowth proccess through helminth. Which is likely the whole plot surrounding why she tried transference in the first place. It is also very possible that she managed to create the specters based on the same thing. There is a reason Silvana got stuck in the forest, she couldnt control the transference.

14 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But if it was a Prime, then that would explain how we get Prime blueprints out of the Relics (which, again, are quantum-linked to the original parts, allowing us to ignore time itself) because it would mean that the original blueprints for the parts produce the Prime frame.

I'd really like to know where that quantum idea comes from. The only thing the flavor text says about them is that they are many several things at the same time and the outcome turns out to be one of those things. Nothing at all mentioned regarding time etc. And we dont know how they were intended to work prior to getting scattered across the system and in the void. They were likely just orokin caches that have over time gotten corrupted by the void. Why would the Orokin willingly want to require void energy to crack them open when the void is hard to traverse in the first place?

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I envision something like an Orokin Derelict in humanoid form, with Orokin style foundation and freaky infested overgrowth covering the body partially, something like 25-50%. From this lore shouldn't be a problem -- he is a derelict Warframe. In fact the general lore fits him better than other Prime frames.

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4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What part of the story do you get that from? It was a therapy project as she says, she specifies that it is "being turned into a weapon". Which implies it was indeed what it seemed to be, a  therapeutic project from the start and when she joined.

We thought Zariman was a real space ship too. Turned out it was a test chamber from the start. The Orokin tend to lie about this kind of thing

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'd really like to know where that quantum idea comes from. The only thing the flavor text says about them is that they are many several things at the same time and the outcome turns out to be one of those things. 

I haven't checked the transcripts, but I think Ordis says the word "quantum" it when a player installs the relic refinery segment for the first time. If that's true, that's where Birdframe is insisting on quantum entanglement

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On 2021-05-21 at 6:25 AM, .GRUSB said:

 


Sorry for google (yandex) translation

Many people are indignant about the non-canonicity of the future prime version of Nidus, but there is, in my opinion, a simple solution. Ballas, as the creator of the prime versions in the past, managed to reach our days in the game, and even already played the role of a blacksmith for us. In addition to Nidus, there are other frames such as Zaku, which appeared after the Orokin era, and most likely they are not the last. Only DE knows (or maybe they don't know yet) how will the new war end, but why not get Balas out of where he is now so that he can pick up tools and create for us versions of frames "to his golden taste" in the present? This is a solution not only for nidus but for all future frame.

 

A N C I E N T      N I D U S

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On 2021-05-21 at 6:29 PM, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

There's also the fact that "forged" in her description also means "copied fraudently" or "faked", which also makes sense with what we know of Alad V. He's fascinated with Orokin tech, and has already tried to recreate Orokin tech with Helios and Lockjaw & Sol. That's why Gersemi Valkyr looks so different from her Prime, but her more scarred base version looks more like her Prime, because Alad literally tried to replicate her Prime, failed, and then scrapped her for parts for his Zanuka Project.

I know I'm a bit late but this was literally a perfect explanation and double entendre to Valkyr Prime and Possibly original and I literally didn't notice. why don't people just have an opened mind like you lol 

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On 2021-05-21 at 7:29 PM, TARINunit9 said:

I have been over this quest with a fine tooth comb, you can't intimidate me

Ok so Ballas created "the first Warframes" and he tries to control them through torture. This is in the dialogue. And he says that it does not work. The Orokin acknowledge it does not work, and they throw them away because it does not work. 

We see the torture from Excalibur Umbra's perspective. The torture that Ballas says did not keep "the first Warframes" under control.

Then the Tenno come along, and find a new way to control "the first Warframes." 

For Excalibur Umbra to be the last Warframe, for Ballas to try and create a Warframe through torture after having already seen that torture does not work, it would imply that the Orokin are so stupid, so utterly braindead, they do not understand basic cause and effect. It would imply that the Orokin build houses by hammering their thumb repeatedly, while complaining they did not buy any nails

Well... I mean... The Orokin have shown such... characteristics that may not necessarily suggest being completely brain dead but caring about their leisurely lifestyle and status quo over any reasonable thought

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On 2021-05-21 at 8:46 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because Valkyr became a berserker by being experimented on by Alad V. This happened way after the Orokin ever made the primes. So it stands to reason that her prime wouldn’t be a berserker. But her prime is still a berserker.

Looking at the Umbra quest and the torture ballas does in order to just get revenge do you not think the same cruel torture couldn't be done to other frames especially those the original like ballas would see as just war machines?

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Just now, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

Looking at the Umbra quest and the torture ballas does in order to just get revenge do you not think the same cruel torture couldn't be done to other frames especially those the original like ballas would see as just war machines?

Umbra and prime frames are different.

Also, Valkyr Deluxe is what Valkyr looked like before Alads experiments on her. Further implying that she was a very different frame before the experiments.

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18 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

We thought Zariman was a real space ship too. Turned out it was a test chamber from the start. The Orokin tend to lie about this kind of thing

I haven't checked the transcripts, but I think Ordis says the word "quantum" it when a player installs the relic refinery segment for the first time. If that's true, that's where Birdframe is insisting on quantum entanglement

Well yes the Orokin lie, but as implied by Sylvana's way of phrasing things it was one thing that turned into something else. And that whole thing is also purely regarding the infestation research the project handles, not the transference itself, since all of that is put on ice when the whole thing shifts to frame use, since Ballas finds the work with the kids unimportant since he doesnt care for them one bit. It isnt until Marge has died and the accidental discovery of the tenno influence on frames have come to light that Ballas finalizes it.

Birdframe is reading things that arent there.

Quote

 

They say the contents of a Relic are simultaneously this thing, or this thing, or this thing, but also that thing and certainly never just one thing.

That is until it's exposed to a Void Fissure? And at that point, all the possibilities collapse, each one falling away until the Relic cracks open and exposes one, singular thing.

 

That is all the info that there is on the relics. I just get the feeling it is a very intricate data vault and with the wrong opening sequence we dont always get what we want from it, or that it has gotten corrupted by the void over the years meaning most data gets lost when we open it.

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On 2021-05-26 at 12:01 AM, TARINunit9 said:

All of the Titanias fought for YEARS in the Old War before the very first one (we assume it was the very first one because narrative) caught wind of Silvana being attacked and flew in to save her

You also assume the timeline, as there's nothing in the lore that says any of that.

On 2021-05-26 at 12:01 AM, TARINunit9 said:

I dunno man, after Deimos I get the feeling there are as many strains of Infested as there are stars in the sky

Yes? And we use the Helminth Strain, as in, the specific one picked out for being more docile and likely to be controllable by Ballas?

It's not a larger category, it's a tiny category, a specific, named, strain. And, something we know because the landers and orbiters we use were not decommissioned over the years we slept (because Ordis specifically has been ship Cephalon the entire time), the specific entity of the Helminth Strain in our ship is literally the same one from the Orokin Era.

On 2021-05-26 at 12:01 AM, TARINunit9 said:

I see Titania Not Prime coming first because it was an experiment.

Ahh, so here's the problem then.

You're getting hung up on the idea that somehow the method of production was different whether it was any Archimedean or Ballas. And I'm saying that doesn't matter. Or that one has gold filligree bits and the other doesn't, and that doesn't matter either.

You're genuinely not seeing that the tech at the time was so much better that the original frame, whether it looked like the Titania we get from the Silver Grove Blueprints or like the golden one we get from the Relic blueprints, would have been the Prime by default.

There isn't a jury-rigging system that needs to happen back then, they literally created the Original (which is why the term 'Prime' is used, as in 'Originator', instead of the term 'Prime' as in 'Best'). The original that they created would have been with Orokin tech. Therefore it would have had the base sturdiness and stats that we cannot recreate without the original blueprints from the time.

It doesn't matter what it looked like, it doesn't matter that it was an experiment, just the fact that it was made in that era, by the Archimedeans, made it a Prime. Simply because their 'experiments', their one-off trial runs, used tech that was so far above our current tech that it was just base better.

The gold filligree parts are just a skin. They don't make it Prime. That's what I've been saying the entire time.

It's our tech, modern day, which is lesser and has to create the same functions by interpreting what it finds and replicating it in any way it can, that makes the frames non-Prime. Whether we research it in person, or through a Dojo.

The whole point of my argument is that Primes were both Prototype and Production model back then and it really didn't matter whether they were shiny and gold or not. They had the base stats that make them superior to what we make now.

It's only because we are not Orokin Archimedeans that makes the frames we create not as physically sturdy.

Every frame back then was up to that spec, whether it was the first, or the four thousand and first.

Ballas literally did not have to make 'better' versions than the prototype.

We are the ones that can't match them, and just because someone like Silvana wasn't Ballas, doesn't mean the creation wasn't on the same level, a level above what we can do.

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You're genuinely not seeing that the tech at the time was so much better that the original frame, whether it looked like the Titania we get from the Silver Grove Blueprints or like the golden one we get from the Relic blueprints, would have been the Prime by default.

Oh no, I knew about your theory. And I rejected it.

Orokin tech was so great as to be magic. It was also not very widespread. In fact it was the exact opposite of "widespread." For every Neural Sentry that defies the laws of physics, entropy, and causality, you had ten billion slaves on Pluto tilling the fields by hand. With iron tools. Likewise, not all Warframes were created equal. We actually see Not Primes being used in the cinematic trailer, which takes place during the Fall. They would have been active during the Old War, when the Orokin COULD have made them into Primes, but didn't

This is also why I reject this assumption:

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

There isn't a jury-rigging system that needs to happen back then, they literally created the Original (which is why the term 'Prime' is used, as in 'Originator', instead of the term 'Prime' as in 'Best'). The original that they created would have been with Orokin tech. 

 

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh no, I knew about your theory. And I rejected it.

Orokin tech was so great as to be magic. It was also not very widespread. In fact it was the exact opposite of "widespread." For every Neural Sentry that defies the laws of physics, entropy, and causality, you had ten billion slaves on Pluto tilling the fields by hand. With iron tools. Likewise, not all Warframes were created equal. We actually see Not Primes being used in the cinematic trailer, which takes place during the Fall. They would have been active during the Old War, when the Orokin COULD have made them into Primes, but didn't

This is also why I reject this assumption:

 

Well, we also know the Orokin were douches who would do a lot of stuff for laughs. They literally mangled some poor guys up to hop into their bodies temporarily as a Halloween costume, forcing a bunch of their slaves to do harder manual labor isn't really out of the realm for them. Also, why would the Orokin let anyone else but them use that technology, especially slaves, who at best got a vibrating shovel (indicating the Orokin did have more advanced tech to give to their slaves, but chose not to). The Grineer we see in that exact same trailer you mention have very well developed weapons and armor, so it seems more likely that the Orokin spent their resources on their military and personal havens vs everything they had control over.
a165x8c2tr831.png

Pretty sure the Fall of the Orokin was AFTER the Old War had finished up, or was at least very close to the end. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for us to kill the leaders of the Orokin and still work for them, especially when our betrayal was during our celebration ceremony for winning the war. From what other lore bits indicate, killing the higher ups locked away most of the Orokin's tech (Relics seem to imply it was lost to the Void, but that's just as assumption), which is why the rest of the Orokin were so easy to hunt down and kill. Us breaking off from the Orokin and being forced to use more basic materials and blueprints for our weapons and Warframes after losing the original items makes a lot more sense than the Orokin themselves doing it, especially when they devoted a lot of resources to their war effort and don't have anything of there's not "primed" (hence why the the pre-Corpus were probably treated worse than the Grineer, as at the end of the day, the Grineer were an Orokin product and the pre-Corpus were just used as genetic breeding cattle). There's also no indication that a Prime Warframe wasn't the very first in all circumstances, we're only seeing one Warframe at a time, and that doesn't mean that it was the first just because it's the only one we've actually seen. 

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56 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Pretty sure the Fall of the Orokin was AFTER the Old War had finished up, or was at least very close to the end. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for us to kill the leaders of the Orokin and still work for them, especially when our betrayal was during our celebration ceremony for winning the war. 

Um, yes, I didn't say otherwise. 

57 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

The Grineer we see in that exact same trailer you mention have very well developed weapons and armor, so it seems more likely that the Orokin spent their resources on their military and personal havens vs everything they had control over.
a165x8c2tr831.png
 

Yeah, think about what that implies. If the Fall was so soon after the Old War, that there were Prime Grineer and Not Prime Warframes co-existing? My takeaway is that the Orokin R&D weren't all given equal treatment. You have top dogs like Ballas strutting around with full Vauban Prime and Saryn Prime retinues, but blokes lower on the totem pole like Silvana and Parvos only have enough funding/requisition to cobble together a Not Prime

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On 2021-05-28 at 8:24 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Orokin tech was so great as to be magic. It was also not very widespread. In fact it was the exact opposite of "widespread."

This is the exact reason why you are wrong to reject it.

It was restricted to... think about it... Archimedeans.

Like Sylvana.

Like Ballas.

The people who are literally stated to have built Warframes.

Why are you rejecting a theory on grounds that counter your own rejection?

And then there's this: 

On 2021-05-29 at 12:01 AM, TARINunit9 said:

Parvos only have enough funding/requisition to cobble together a Not Prime

Parvos never built anything, he was given one.

With throw-away comments like that, you're kind of losing respectability in this discussion.

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On 2021-05-28 at 7:11 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ballas literally did not have to make 'better' versions than the prototype.

So you willingly ignore the whole historical part about how the first frames turned on the Orokin and started to kill them? That alone implies that Ballas had to make a new frame without those drawbacks. That means alteration, which also means a seperate version, which also means a better version, since it is no longer prone to go insane and kill its allies on the battlefield. The history also tells us the tenno only had limited influence on those first frames, which resulted in the need of transference bolts. Another new addition to the new line of frames.

Something isnt the same if it gets changed and added to, at that point it is something new and different. So in the case of frames, Prime highly likely means best and not original. Just as the mods also imply. They are primed mods, not prime mods. They've gone through a process making them stronger than their original, they've gotten primed.

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6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is the exact reason why you are wrong to reject it.

It was restricted to... think about it... Archimedeans.

Like Sylvana.

Like Ballas.

Ballas was an Emperor by the time Silvana started building Warframes. Silvana was a dirt-poor hippie breeding trees on Earth, not a rich bastard like Ballas. 

I'm siding with @SneakyErvinon this one: we know for a fact from the Rhino Prime codex entry that there were early model Warframes, and these early models WERE, objectively, inferior to the Primes what came later

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