Nidus Prime - the future of lore

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ballas was an Emperor by the time Silvana started building Warframes.

Where. Does it say. That?

He was on the Council, but he was an Archimedean, that's why he could create technology.

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Silvana was a dirt-poor hippie breeding trees on Earth

Silvana was an Archimedean.

It's a job.

Some of them studied ways to breed trees on a corrupted planet, some of them designed the Infestation that corrupted that planet, some of them created the Sentients that rebelled and caused the Orokin to research organic countermeasures (the Infestation).

Archimedeans were literally the best scientists of any age in the Warframe Lore. Doesn't matter what they actually did with that power, but the fact that Ballas could bring her in to work on Warframes meant that even if it wasn't her area of expertise, she certainly was able to do it. And Ballas wouldn't just bring in anyone, that perfectionist bugger that he was.

What? Do you think he really would bring in the nearest hippy tree researcher and say 'build a new Warframe' instead of somebody actually qualified?

Please...

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you willingly ignore the whole historical part about how the first frames turned on the Orokin and started to kill them? That alone implies that Ballas had to make a new frame without those drawbacks.

Nope, this entirely fits.

The only difference between those first Warframes and the rest are that there was no control. They were supposed to be controlled by the human that they melded into the Infestation to make the resulting Warframe, but it didn't work, the Infestation did what the Infestation does, and did do last time they tried messing with it.

The Tenno are the missing control.

Without the Tenno to control them, the frames would, and previously did, turn on the Orokin.

Why? Because they're Infestation. That's what the Infestation does.

There is literally no Lore that says anywhere that the frames are any different to the ones that turned on the Orokin. In fact the Rhino Prime lore, which is the discovery of Tenno Transference, implies that they never even changed how they were making Warframes, because that new Warframe (to become Rhino) still turned on the Orokin, and only proximity to the Tenno managed to get it under control.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Something isnt the same if it gets changed and added to

You're right.

But it doesn't say anywhere that they were. All of the Lore I can gather says that they weren't. The missing ingredient was the Tenno, and adding it allowed them to continue exactly as they were doing before and get better results.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Silvana was an Archimedean.

It's a job.

A scientist can be anything from a rich lobbyist in Washington to a poor donor in Africa. Silvana was the latter

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What? Do you think he really would bring in the nearest hippy tree researcher and say 'build a new Warframe' instead of somebody actually qualified?

Please...

Yes. Bluntly, yes. Easier to control, and better at dealing with Infested tissue

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

A scientist can be anything from a rich lobbyist in Washington to a poor donor in Africa. Silvana was the latter

They lived in a society that had surpassed 'rich' and 'poor' for the Orokin. You either were one, or you were one of the lesser people they controlled, like the Grineer or the people who became the Corpus.

Focusing on a rich/poor divide has absolutely no meaning. In terms of rich versus poor it's the comparison between the money that Jeff Bezos and the Arnault family have, one has 186 Billion, the other has 182 Billion. It's a long way apart if you had to count it by hand, but compared to the average person in the world who will never even see a million in their lifetime... it's meaningless numbers.

The Orokin were a people who were so completely above the 'commoners' that their version of horror stories to tell at Hallowe'en is that even their bored middle class could abduct three commoners, sculpt their bodies into monsters, and then Kuva transfer into them just to prank people. There is no comparison to what we in the real world, or we in the game world could ever achieve.

And what in the heck does that have to do with their ability to create a Warframe anyway? Rich or poor, even if it were a divide, the difference is that the rich lobbyist in Washington is a certified neurosurgeon with specialisation in trauma reconstruction, and the poor donor in Africa is also a certified neurosurgeon with specialisation in tumor removal.

So if you have any relevant argument about this, feel free to use it instead.

[TARINunit9]

20 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So if you have any relevant argument about this, feel free to use it instead.

Very well

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Where. Does it say. That?

Second Dream and Ivara Leverian.

In Second Dream, Ballas is one of the seven Emperors. That's the ultimate irony of his revenge quest: he raised his hand too. He sentenced her to death with the other six.

In the Ivara Leverian, we see my theory in action: Ballas would commission Warframes to be build, and they would only become Prime if they earned it. It happened to Ivara, it happened to Titania. You don't get a Prime until you EARN it.

While we are at it, let's take another look at Silvana:

"As I log this, I'm looking out the stained plastic of my field tent into the dead-yellow sky of Earth. I smell the vague sulfur and toxins leaking through the seals, yet somehow I'm going to miss this place"

Plastic tent, doing grunt work out in the middle of smelly nowhere, while Ballas was up in a literal Ivory tower being an Emperor? Silvana was a dirt-poor hippie. She doesn't get Prime anything, not even Warframes. 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Nope, this entirely fits.

The only difference between those first Warframes and the rest are that there was no control. They were supposed to be controlled by the human that they melded into the Infestation to make the resulting Warframe, but it didn't work, the Infestation did what the Infestation does, and did do last time they tried messing with it.

The Tenno are the missing control.

Without the Tenno to control them, the frames would, and previously did, turn on the Orokin.

Why? Because they're Infestation. That's what the Infestation does.

There is literally no Lore that says anywhere that the frames are any different to the ones that turned on the Orokin. In fact the Rhino Prime lore, which is the discovery of Tenno Transference, implies that they never even changed how they were making Warframes, because that new Warframe (to become Rhino) still turned on the Orokin, and only proximity to the Tenno managed to get it under control.

You're right.

But it doesn't say anywhere that they were. All of the Lore I can gather says that they weren't. The missing ingredient was the Tenno, and adding it allowed them to continue exactly as they were doing before and get better results.

No it doesnt fit. You ignore the whole sacrifice vitruvian thing. The first models were "put to the grave" as Ballas said, it means they got discontinued. He also goes on and explains that it wasnt until they found out and went back to the "dualism" doctrine that things worked out.

And no, it wasnt the infestation doing anything. What happened was the human host inside not being able to take it, so went insane. The infestation used was still Helminth. If it was "infestation did what the infestation does" then the surrogates would have turned on the orokin aswell during Margulis' transference rehab project since it is the exact same strain used. Earth would have also been a living monster after Silvana went back to regrow it since she uses Helminth research to revitalize it.

No, the Rhino Prime entry isnt the discovery of tenno transference, that was discovered prior to the frames, it is all that Margulis' project is about. What was discovered in the Rhino entry is that the tenno have a soothing effect on the frames. Which is a seperate thing from transference, which was something the tenno already did when interacting with their surrogates. The whole Rhino Prime entry is most likely a story about when the Orokin put those original frames to the grave. Poking, proding and studing them to see what went wrong, and one of them gets loose. As the scientist mentions in the entry, he had done the same to several before. Which Ballas also implies in the sacrifice.

There are also other indications as to how they are different, namely the addition of the transference bolt that allows the tenno to transfer into the frames like they do with the surrogates. Not to mention that Ordis specifically states that a frame should have no memory, this is while he is directly linked/changed by the vitruvian, so it isnt just Ordis not being up to date on Orokin matters.

[SneakyErvin]

Just a little sidenote regarding the whole "Primes were the first" thing.

Somatic Fibers in the game indicates that Primes were not the first since the somatic fibers mention early prototype warframes.

[NightmareT12]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just a little sidenote regarding the whole "Primes were the first" thing.

Somatic Fibers in the game indicates that Primes were not the first since the somatic fibers mention early prototype warframes.

In this context, "Primes were first" means they came before the Tenno version we use as default. Indeed prototypes exist, as hinted by the Ivara Levarian and Rebb's comment on it afterwards (I believe it was on Prime Time).

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No it doesnt fit. You ignore the whole sacrifice vitruvian thing. The first models were "put to the grave" as Ballas said, it means they got discontinued.

No, it means they killed them. You know, like they do for anyone else that steps out of line?

There's nothing that says they stopped the entire project, and things that support the fact that they continued it. Killing off the ones that turned on them is just... logical as a failed test group.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

He also goes on and explains that it wasnt until they found out and went back to the "dualism" doctrine that things worked out.

Yes, dualism, in reference to the fact that the Tenno were discovered to be the 'minds' that could control the 'body'?

The entry itself is titled the Tenno. The reason that dualism is even mentioned is because it's something they used to believe and in this case was found to be true. It was context to the concept of Tenno controlling the Warframes.

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, the Rhino Prime entry isnt the discovery of tenno transference, that was discovered prior to the frames, it is all that Margulis' project is about.

The Tenno have a 'soothing effect' by means of Transference.

It's not like some pacifying aura, or frames being controlled by other means, like Mesa when you fight infested Alad-V would calm down, or Chroma when you encounter it in the Derelict would calm down. 

If not the actual discovery of Transference in the Tenno, then what else is that? If they were being helped in Margulis' project, why are they being kept in a random room asleep? And why were the two that ran there convinced that they were going to get big, fat promotions because of this?

It was the discovery that Tenno could use Transference on, and could therefore control, the Warframes.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There are also other indications as to how they are different, namely the addition of the transference bolt that allows the tenno to transfer into the frames like they do with the surrogates.

Did you forget? Ballas, using a Transference bolt, can talk mind-to-mind with the man who becomes Umbra, and uses it to shackle the Warframe after the transformation.

Transference is also a function that the Orokin used before the Tenno, using Kuva, to either temporarily or permanently inhabit a new body.

The difference between the Orokin and the Tenno is that the Tenno can do it without Kuva.

Transference bolts are receivers, and so the Orokin absolutely must have had them before. As an emblematic question of that; how did they survive the original Warframes turning on them if they had no way to stop them? It's clear that if they didn't have a fail-safe they die as easily as anyone else. Heck, with the Tenno in control, the Orokin were destroyed by the Warframes at their highest level, with none of their other creations (the Sentients, the Infestation or even the Dax) able to stop them.

Heck, if it was something only given to the Warframes for the Tenno, explain the Necramechs being controlled by Father and Grandmother, as well as the Tenno.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not to mention that Ordis specifically states that a frame should have no memory

Yeah? And?

When did this turn into a discussion about Umbra? What does that have any baring on in this discussion?

Ballas created a Warframe with specifically embedded final memories as a method of torment. All that means is that he could do this process so freely by the time he was about to defect to the Sentients that he could even modify what the resulting frame could and couldn't remember. He could do it to get rid of political enemies.

The Warframes that turned on the Orokin most likely didn't do it because they had memory, but because they had no control. They were Infestation, made more powerful by fusing with people. The Infestation are known to have hive minds, and so without proper control, what's a group of powerful Infested golems going to do? Try to propogate and spread, usually by killing and absorbing organics nearby. Like the Orokin.

That's why I said 'the Infestation does what it does'.

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, it means they killed them. You know, like they do for anyone else that steps out of line?

They tried to, you got that much right. But they failed

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If not the actual discovery of Transference in the Tenno, then what else is that? If they were being helped in Margulis' project, why are they being kept in a random room asleep? And why were the two that ran there convinced that they were going to get big, fat promotions because of this?

It was the discovery that Tenno could use Transference on, and could therefore control, the Warframes.

There seems to be a miscommunication with you and @SneakyErvinon this point

Transference probably existed before the Old War. The Red and Blue Kuva were prototypes of Transference and Continuity

As for why the Z-Kids were kept in that morgue? Margulis did that. She was originally ordered to just euthenize all of us, but she refused (part of the reason she was later sentenced to death) and put us in stasis dreamstate instead.

When Rhino Umbra later broke into the morgue, it was the reveal that we could use Transference while still in stasis dreamstate AND that we could control the Umbras. This the Warframe Project was restarted, now centered around a new caste of warriors called the Tenno

[Eidolyst]

On 2021-05-21 at 3:06 PM, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

There's really no lore issues here. Have you seen the the wall meat the guys in Cetus farm? The Orokin are known for adorning their fleshy monsters in gold and plaster, it was their way to fight the Sentients when nothing else worked.

The literal only lore we have on Nidus is that "he's an Old War relic", which tells us absolutely nothing since ALL Warframes are Old War relics. Can't really break much lore there when he doesn't really have any.

As for Xaku, he was clearly formed together during the Orokin Era, were you not paying attention? The Entrati talk about the Void Expeditions the Orokin went through to better understand the Void, Xaku was just a Warframe who went on one that had an accident. 

In terms of Xaku, I can see their Prime variant using the Prime variants of the three frames they are a composite of.

However, Nidus still baffles me. Maybe if there was something to do with the Helminth, then it would make more than enough sense.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

17 minutes ago, Eidolyst said:

However, Nidus still baffles me. Maybe if there was something to do with the Helminth, then it would make more than enough sense.

He is helminth made just like any other frame the only difference is that his powers are focused on it.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

In this context, "Primes were first" means they came before the Tenno version we use as default. Indeed prototypes exist, as hinted by the Ivara Levarian and Rebb's comment on it afterwards (I believe it was on Prime Time).

That isnt what I'm refering to. I'm refering to a certain someone that claims the primes were the very first. Obviously they came prior to the tenno frames since we know tenno frames are knock offs. A certain someone claims though that all frames we use are based on Primes, that all frames in the quest stories are primes. When in reality they can be anything from a prototype, a prime, an earlier tenno frame or even a specter.

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, it means they killed them. You know, like they do for anyone else that steps out of line?

There's nothing that says they stopped the entire project, and things that support the fact that they continued it. Killing off the ones that turned on them is just... logical as a failed test group.

Yes, dualism, in reference to the fact that the Tenno were discovered to be the 'minds' that could control the 'body'?

The entry itself is titled the Tenno. The reason that dualism is even mentioned is because it's something they used to believe and in this case was found to be true. It was context to the concept of Tenno controlling the Warframes.

The Tenno have a 'soothing effect' by means of Transference.

It's not like some pacifying aura, or frames being controlled by other means, like Mesa when you fight infested Alad-V would calm down, or Chroma when you encounter it in the Derelict would calm down. 

If not the actual discovery of Transference in the Tenno, then what else is that? If they were being helped in Margulis' project, why are they being kept in a random room asleep? And why were the two that ran there convinced that they were going to get big, fat promotions because of this?

It was the discovery that Tenno could use Transference on, and could therefore control, the Warframes.

Did you forget? Ballas, using a Transference bolt, can talk mind-to-mind with the man who becomes Umbra, and uses it to shackle the Warframe after the transformation.

Transference is also a function that the Orokin used before the Tenno, using Kuva, to either temporarily or permanently inhabit a new body.

The difference between the Orokin and the Tenno is that the Tenno can do it without Kuva.

Transference bolts are receivers, and so the Orokin absolutely must have had them before. As an emblematic question of that; how did they survive the original Warframes turning on them if they had no way to stop them? It's clear that if they didn't have a fail-safe they die as easily as anyone else. Heck, with the Tenno in control, the Orokin were destroyed by the Warframes at their highest level, with none of their other creations (the Sentients, the Infestation or even the Dax) able to stop them.

Heck, if it was something only given to the Warframes for the Tenno, explain the Necramechs being controlled by Father and Grandmother, as well as the Tenno.

Yeah? And?

When did this turn into a discussion about Umbra? What does that have any baring on in this discussion?

Ballas created a Warframe with specifically embedded final memories as a method of torment. All that means is that he could do this process so freely by the time he was about to defect to the Sentients that he could even modify what the resulting frame could and couldn't remember. He could do it to get rid of political enemies.

The Warframes that turned on the Orokin most likely didn't do it because they had memory, but because they had no control. They were Infestation, made more powerful by fusing with people. The Infestation are known to have hive minds, and so without proper control, what's a group of powerful Infested golems going to do? Try to propogate and spread, usually by killing and absorbing organics nearby. Like the Orokin.

That's why I said 'the Infestation does what it does'.

You miss alot of points.

Discontinued/killed, same thing. And of course nothing says they stopped the whole project, what I'm saying is that the very first frames werent the primes. They are a seperate model after the proto(type) frames were ended. That means the primes are a seperate and not guratanteed to be the frames we hear of in the quests. The protos didnt just go nuts over a day and that was that, they were effectively sent onto the battlefield and went insane during their period in the old war. We dont know how long they were around, but we have stories in both Inaros and Titanias case that indicate proto frames turning on the Orokin.

Regarding transference, I'm saying it was already discovered to be a thing, something that could let them control bio-mechanical objects long before they decided to use them for the frames. The Orokin were simply lucky that Marge hadnt followed their orders to get rid of them. And how the Orokin survived the initial Warframes? They killed them with weapons like mentioned in the Titania story.

As for necramechs. They arent frames, they arent built like frames. I never said that transference bolts arent used elsewhere. They were very likely used on the surrogates aswell. That however doesnt imply that they were used on living things ment to be controlled by themselves. Like Ballas says, they intended for the transformation to work, which it did until the frames went insane.

The reason Ballas manages to bring out a specific memory in Umbra is because it is a different transference bolt as mentioned in The Sacrifice.

And no, this has nothing to do with the infestation since it isnt the infestation that is involved, it is the Helminth. If you cant get that then it is really pointless to try and get anything across to you. We also know from the Titania story that it had memories and feelings, and not driven by the need for assimilation etc. Titania went after Sylvana to earth in order to protect her creator. So when Ballas says they went insane, he mearly means they didnt blindly fall inline or do what the Orokin or Ballas wanted. Which can be seen in the Inaros story aswell, when the cup simply gets overful and Inaros decides to act against the attrocities done by the Orokin.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

13 hours ago, Eidolyst said:

In terms of Xaku, I can see their Prime variant using the Prime variants of the three frames they are a composite of.

However, Nidus still baffles me. Maybe if there was something to do with the Helminth, then it would make more than enough sense.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Unum



The Orokin retrofitted most of their tech to be biomechanical in nature during the Old War after the Sentients started taking over anything mechanical. Check out Cetus, the Ostrons literally harvest the Unum for food and other resources.

All Warframes are also biomechanical, as we've seen with the Sacrifice, Nidus just uses the Helminth Infestation itself to attack, unlike other Warframes who use Void space magic to freeze the air or suck the blood out of somebody. He looks the way he does because that's what the Infested look like (Vauban looks like the Corpus for example, and even Saryn has some similarities to the Infested, Revenant looks like the Eidolons, etc. It was quite common for the Orokin to model a Warframe after a certain faction's appearance), and like all Warframes he was designed to be that way, for the most part. It's not that weird for the Orokin to try more biological aspects with their Warframes when they were clearly working against the Sentients.

[Atsia]

On 2021-05-31 at 7:06 PM, TARINunit9 said:

In Second Dream, Ballas is one of the seven Emperors. That's the ultimate irony of his revenge quest: he raised his hand too. He sentenced her to death with the other six.

Well no, that was a council of Executors. Ballas has never been referred to as an Emporor, always an Executor. And continuing, all the Leverian says it's that Ivara will be remembered, that has nothing to do with being a Prime or not.

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Well no, that was a council of Executors. Ballas has never been referred to as an Emporor, always an Executor. 

Technically true. But from what I can tell, "Emperor" is actually an informal term (only ever used by Stalker) for one of The Seven. And Ballas was one of The Seven.

7 minutes ago, Atsia said:

And continuing, all the Leverian says it's that Ivara will be remembered, that has nothing to do with being a Prime or not.

Yes. And the frames that failed, the unproven and unremembered, were never given Primes. That's my thesis: Not-Prime comes first and is tested by The Seven. Fail the test? Die. Pass the test? You get to have Primes made of you

[Atsia]

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Technically true. But from what I can tell, "Emperor" is actually an informal term (only ever used by Stalker) for one of The Seven. And Ballas was one of The Seven.

Yes. And the frames that failed, the unproven and unremembered, were never given Primes. That's my thesis: Not-Prime comes first and is tested by The Seven. Fail the test? Die. Pass the test? You get to have Primes made of you

Yes, though Emperor is also in the Targis Prime armor quote. But there's never been a correlation between the Seven and the Orokin Emperors, or a reference a such as gets as I seen. Not from Stalker at least. And you can't really use frames being destroyed for failure as evidence that Primes didn't come before when it makes no reference to primes (granted, no record from the Orokin Era does). It's conjecture at best.

 

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, Atsia said:

And you can't really use frames being destroyed for failure as evidence that Primes didn't come before when it makes no reference to primes (granted, no record from the Orokin Era does). It's conjecture at best.

 

Conjecture based on the fact the very first Titania also wasn't a Prime. And no, I do not believe that she "degraded" while she was buried, we've seen from both the Cinematic Trailer and the Sands of Inaros quest that Warframes don't degrade. Silvana made the very first Titania, then the very first Titania died, then Silvana buried the very first Titania, and when we dug the very first Titania up she wasn't a Prime. I see no reason this doesn't hold for the very first Ivara as well: she wasn't a Prime either

[Atsia]

56 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Conjecture based on the fact the very first Titania also wasn't a Prime. And no, I do not believe that she "degraded" while she was buried, we've seen from both the Cinematic Trailer and the Sands of Inaros quest that Warframes don't degrade. Silvana made the very first Titania, then the very first Titania died, then Silvana buried the very first Titania, and when we dug the very first Titania up she wasn't a Prime. I see no reason this doesn't hold for the very first Ivara as well: she wasn't a Prime either

Except there's nothing to indicate that the Titania we found was the very first. Or that Ivara from Leverian was the very first either.

[GrayArchon]

Oh wow, this thread is still going?

On 2021-05-31 at 1:45 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

He was on the Council, but he was an Archimedean

Ballas is never referred to as an Archimedian. His rank is given numerous times as "Executor". From context clues, Archemedians seem to have been a separate class of scientific functionaries who weren't destitute, but certainly didn't rise to the rank of "Orokin" like Ballas and his peers.

On 2021-05-31 at 1:45 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Where. Does it say. That?

12 hours ago, Atsia said:

Well no, that was a council of Executors. Ballas has never been referred to as an Emporor, always an Executor.

Ballas is referred to as an "Executor", but it seems likely that this is the highest rank among the Orokin, as we never see Ballas subordinate to anyone but his collective peers. The "Emperors" are mentioned once in the Stalker Codex entry (which dates from 2013) and once in the description of the Targis Prime armour (which is of dubious value here). I think Emperor and Executor are interchangeable as far as the Orokin go.

On 2021-06-01 at 12:18 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Transference is also a function that the Orokin used before the Tenno, using Kuva, to either temporarily or permanently inhabit a new body.

You're conflating Transference and Continuity, which are similar but not shown to actually be related. Transference is usually temporary (but can be permanent if sustained) and appears to be enhanced by Void powers, although Void powers are not required. Continuity is largely permanent (except with blue kuva) and is facilitated by kuva.

On 2021-06-01 at 12:18 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

As an emblematic question of that; how did they survive the original Warframes turning on them if they had no way to stop them?

I'm sure there were Orokin on the scene that died, but the warframes were released in battle. Most of the Orokin would have been far, far away at the time. The warframes (unlike the Sentients) aren't immune to conventional weaponry. The Orokin easily could have levied their considerable military might at whatever planet this was and wiped them out. Parvos Granum tells about how he wiped out an entire warframe squad using a bomb.

On 2021-06-01 at 5:32 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Transference probably existed before the Old War.

There might have been some prototypes that later became Transference, but The Second Dream makes it clear that Transference, both in its name and nature, came about as a result of Margulis' work. The Lotus says: "The Orokin murdered Margulis. Used her work to create Transference." Ballas says: "…it's about the other rejects we consigned to Lua a few years ago. They're calling it… Transference."

19 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

The Orokin retrofitted most of their tech to be biomechanical in nature during the Old War after the Sentients started taking over anything mechanical.

This is an assumption, not fact. The Orokin seem to have been highly accomplished bioengineers before of the Old War. Those structures like the Unum's Tower could have been biological the entire time.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Atsia said:

Except there's nothing to indicate that the Titania we found was the very first. 

Silvana outright tells you

[Atsia]

On 2021-06-03 at 6:14 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Silvana outright tells you

She really doesn't. All she says is "my creation", which could be at best an implication, but mostly says nothing.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Atsia said:

which could be at best an implication, 

Ok, you know how most of the records in the Leverian have a disclaimer "I couldn't get a first-hand source for this, there might be some artistic license," but the audience already knows that all the stories are correct?

That's what's going on with Titania. The first Titania is the one who saved Silvana, because that's how stories are told. This is also why I insist Excalibur Umbra was the very first Warframe ever made, ever: because why would Ballas be monologuing about the first Warframes ever built if the quest was about a different, unrelated character?

[Atsia]

23 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ok, you know how most of the records in the Leverian have a disclaimer "I couldn't get a first-hand source for this, there might be some artistic license," but the audience already knows that all the stories are correct?

That's what's going on with Titania. The first Titania is the one who saved Silvana, because that's how stories are told. This is also why I insist Excalibur Umbra was the very first Warframe ever made, ever: because why would Ballas be monologuing about the first Warframes ever built if the quest was about a different, unrelated character?

No? Even if it's Silvana telling the story, that does nothing to actually support that Titania being the first. It makes her a primary source, and that only. You do have a point in terms of The Sacrifice, if the surrounding facts and bits of dialogue didn't contradict.

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Even if it's Silvana telling the story, that does nothing to actually support that Titania being the first. It makes her a primary source, and that only. 

Yeah, uh, I outright reject this. After all, she only created one Titania, the original, and she identifies the one that saves her as her creation, the one she specifically hated. And yes, I do trust her judgement on the matter despite her having been a burning tree at the time

6 minutes ago, Atsia said:

You do have a point in terms of The Sacrifice, if the surrounding facts and bits of dialogue didn't contradict.

There's actually only one contradiction, which is Ballas using the word "Tenno" supposedly several years too early. That's part of why this argument "did the Umbras come first or last?" is so frustrating to me: because the story is just one detail off being perfect. But this one line throws everything out of whack

[Atsia]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

There's actually only one contradiction, which is Ballas using the word "Tenno" supposedly several years too early. That's part of why this argument "did the Umbras come first or last?" is so frustrating to me: because the story is just one detail off being perfect. But this one line throws everything out of whack

As said before in the thread, It would also contradict the general timeline of things, given that the reason Ballas started his plan of betrayal was because of Margulis dying, which would've have to happen well after the War started and Warframes were for sure in production already.

 

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah, uh, I outright reject this. After all, she only created one Titania, the original, and she identifies the one that saves her as her creation, the one she specifically hated. And yes, I do trust her judgement on the matter despite her having been a burning tree at the time

Except we don't know that. Nothing says there was only one Titania, and nothing establishes the one that saves her as the original, especially given that we know frames can be replicated.