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SP survival is too rng dependent IMO


Berzerkules
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Four minutes into Sp Mot survival and I have 10% life support.

I have 360 kills in 240 seconds for a 1.5 kills per second average.

Life support drains at a rate of 1% per 1.5 seconds or -40% per minute. That means in 4 minutes life support has dropped 160% total. 

Each life support capsule adds 5% life support, to be at 10% after 4 minutes I would have had to get 14 capsules to gain 70%.

360 kills dropping 14 capsules total is one capsule drop per ~25 enemies. 

If life support drops 40% per minute you need 8 capsules per minute to maintain life support. With a capsule dropping every ~25 enemies I would need 200 kills per minute or 3.33 kills per second to maintain life support. 

How is 3.33 kills per second even remotely close to an acceptable number? What weapon/frame combos can maintain that kill speed in SP? 

I've run a lot of rounds of SP survival and most of the time it's not this bad. Sometimes I'll go 20 minutes and life support never drops below 70% then the next few minutes I'm down to 20% even though there is no noticeable change in my kps. It's all RNG. Having something like the success of a mission come down to drop chance is ridiculous. RNG should be removed from life support capsule drops, there should be a fixed number of kills required before life support drops.

 

With DE talking about balancing melee and ranged weapons they should consider what kind of buffs guns would need to maintain 1.5 kps to compete with melee or the 3.33 kps to maintain life support. 

 

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YDJCwve.jpg

 

Edit:

I'll add some screen shots from a topic I made on the exact same problem almost a year ago. All screen shots are from solo SP survivals and no life support towers were activated. 

Using a loot frame with more that 2x kps ratio and 1000 more kills in the same amount of time I'm struggling with life support.

This should not happen. RNG should not be a factor in the success of a mission. 

 

Using Khora I have 1777 kills in 10 minutes (2.96 kps) and my life support is at 28%

SGaAGVT.jpgCa2et5H.jpg

 

Using Zephyr I have 797 kills in 10 minutes (1.32kps) and my life support is 99%

cSBoPjg.jpgQaAGKE1.jpg

Edited by Berzerkules
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The kill speed is not really the problem to me, there are enough powerful frames and weapons that when used together can easily take out even more enemies.

My problem, especially in Arbitration, where you get even less life support per collected capsule, is the spawn rates of the enemies when playing solo. More enemy spawns would be really nice in survival.

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Eh. Any survival can be exactly completed by just activating the life support capsules with no kills, that's why there's a riven for doing that.

Anything beyond that on steel path is an optional, self-imposed challenge to see how far you can push yourself and your builds.

Now you've got something to work towards.

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9 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

It's probably because you are soloing and not using Nekros for more oxygen, tbh

Loot frames shouldn't be necessary to maintain life support IMO. Loot frames shouldn't even be able to loot life support because it's not loot. Every time a Nekros desecrates a life support capsule, that drop was wasted because it could have been an item instead of life support. 

Life support drop rates are inconsistent, I just want them normalized. Sometimes 1.5-2 kills per second is enough to maintain and sometimes it's not.

6 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

Eh. Any survival can be exactly completed by just activating the life support capsules with no kills, that's why there's a riven for doing that.

Anything beyond that on steel path is an optional, self-imposed challenge to see how far you can push yourself and your builds.

Now you've got something to work towards.

I've done SP survivals to max lvl on at least a dozen frames, I can maintain an acceptable kill speed, most of the time. There is nothing to work towards because it comes down to rng. I can go 30 minutes and never hit life support and in the next 3 minutes I'm down to <20% because I didn't get lucky on drops. I don't mind having to hit towers if I'm slacking in the kill department but it shouldn't be necessary if I can maintain an acceptable kps ratio. It's all rng though. 

I just don't think rng should be a factor in the success of a mission. RNG does not factor into the success of any other mission type. Sure, I can just just run around hitting life support towers killing nothing but is that really how players or DE wants survival to be played?

Activating towers is also the most dangerous part of a survival because you are stuck standing still in an unskippable animation as a stationary target. Being forced into a dangerous situation because rng isn't in my favor just feels bad man.

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1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

Loot frames shouldn't be necessary to maintain life support IMO. Loot frames shouldn't even be able to loot life support because it's not loot. Every time a Nekros desecrates a life support capsule, that drop was wasted because it could have been an item instead of life support. 

Life support drop rates are inconsistent, I just want them normalized. Sometimes 1.5-2 kills per second is enough to maintain and sometimes it's not.

Well DE just disagrees with your opinion. Not that expressing that opinion is bad, though I do think it is fine. Sometimes you will have to bring a specific frame for a better chance at survival (also it's not like ground loot is that great otherwise.) Especially on SP which should require those things, the regular star chart is fine for doing whatever but you *should* have to specialize sometimes in SP.

 

Honestly, survivals on both are just too easy, a change like that would be more of a problem, imo.

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9 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Well DE just disagrees with your opinion. Not that expressing that opinion is bad, though I do think it is fine. Sometimes you will have to bring a specific frame for a better chance at survival (also it's not like ground loot is that great otherwise.) Especially on SP which should require those things, the regular star chart is fine for doing whatever but you *should* have to specialize sometimes in SP.

 

Honestly, survivals on both are just too easy, a change like that would be more of a problem, imo.

I totally agree that you should make meaningful decisions when it comes to SP but when RNG is a deciding factor, those choices may not matter. There is no consistency, no other mission type relies on rng. 

If you check the screen shots I added to OP I used a Pilfer Khora, had almost 3kps and was still struggling with life support but, when using Zephyr having a 1.3 kps average I had 99% life support. I brought a loot frame that specializes in maximizing kps and it made no difference, It's just rng. The meaningful choices that I should have to make do not matter when my success isn't dependent on those choices. 

It doesn't matter how easy it is, the whole game is easy. I just want DE to set an acceptable kps ratio to maintain life support. If they did, players could make decisions on what to bring and how to play that would have an actual effect on the outcome of the mission. I don't see how that would be a problem. 

 

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Just now, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Easy answer: you're too dependent on the LS drops from enemies and not bothering to activate the actual capsules enough.

But RNG is the determining factor on whether or not I have to activate LS towers. What I choose and how I play makes very little difference. With a consistent -40% drain per minute on life support there should be an acceptable range of maintained kps where activating LS towers is not required. My loadout and how I play should be the deciding factor in how my mission play out but, that's just not the case in SP survival.

If you compare the first 2 screen shots of this post to these screen shots I just got using the exact same loadout, on the exact same mission, I maintained a similar kps ratio (1.5 vs 1.55) but the results were entirely different. The first set I have 10% and the second set I have 91%. 

uBNS9mi.jpg

9DUctvm.jpg

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Solo, SP survivals are going to be a lot harder. I duo'd my way through the starchart and never experienced this problem. I don't even remember if we used nekros. Are you doing long runs that might make the problem more apparent? I know we just stayed for 5 mins to get the mission done, it looks like, in one of the pics, you were only there for a little more than 10 minutes though, so the "it gets harder the longer you go" side of things doesn't apply.

 

I don't know, this time is the first time anyone has mentioned it being an issue.

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28 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Solo, SP survivals are going to be a lot harder. I duo'd my way through the starchart and never experienced this problem. I don't even remember if we used nekros. Are you doing long runs that might make the problem more apparent? I know we just stayed for 5 mins to get the mission done, it looks like, in one of the pics, you were only there for a little more than 10 minutes though, so the "it gets harder the longer you go" side of things doesn't apply.

 

I don't know, this time is the first time anyone has mentioned it being an issue.

I do a lot of long solo SP survivals, it's pretty much all I do. With the right builds your kps ratio does not drop considerably because you basically just walk through enemies up to max lvl. The problem comes when you are maintaining LS perfectly fine because RNG is in your favor then 2 min later you drop 80% LS and there is nothing you could have done to prevent it. My choices and play is not the deciding factor for how the mission plays out, RNG is. 

Here are a couple ss from a random 5h36m solo SP Mot survival on Ash. A 336 minute survival with 33,718 total kill comes to 100 kpm or 1.65 kps. Very similar kps to the Mag pics I've linked in this thread.

iMRwQ5z.pngCepiblT.png

Edited by Berzerkules
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7 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I do a lot of long solo SP survivals, it's pretty much all I do. With the right builds your kps ratio does not drop considerably because you basically just walk through enemies up to max lvl. The problem comes when you are maintaining LS perfectly fine because RNG is in your favor then 2 min later you drop 80% LS and there is nothing you could have done to prevent it. My choices and play is not the deciding factor for how the mission plays out, RNG is. 

Here are a couple ss from a random 5h36m solo SP Mot survival on Ash. A 336 minute survival with 33,718 total kill comes to 100 kpm or 1.65 kps. Very similar kps to the Mag pics I've linked in this thread.

iMRwQ5z.pngCepiblT.png

wow 9 hours! That's way longer than I'd be able to want to stay in one missions. Props to you!

 

At what point does life support become an issue for you, because I believe it intentionally becomes harder the longer you go, though I have no doubt you are aware of that. Giving life support at periodic intervals instead of randomly would make it predictable and "safe" imo, (not in the case of what you are doing, but just in general.)

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Just now, SpicyDinosaur said:

wow 9 hours! That's way longer than I'd be able to want to stay in one missions. Props to you!

 

At what point does life support become an issue for you, because I believe it intentionally becomes harder the longer you go, though I have no doubt you are aware of that. Giving life support at periodic intervals instead of randomly would make it predictable and "safe" imo, (not in the case of what you are doing, but just in general.)

AFAIK there is a constant -40% drain on LS no matter how long you stay. 

Since I use melee as my primary means of dps I can maintain a fairly regular kps ratio, the only time LS is really a problem is when RNG isn't in my favor. Occasionally I'll play more crowd control focused builds where I know my kps isn't going to be as high as another loadout and I expect to rely on LS towers to maintain. 

If LS capsules were dropped at a set rate I feel it would be easier to balance things. DE is talking about balancing ranged vs. melee but I don't think it will make a difference if ranged weapons can't compete with the ~1.5-2 kps required to maintain LS in normal situations. If melee is nerfed too hard just maintaining will be even more difficult if RNG is working against you.

IDK I just want more reliable options to play the game the way I enjoy that isn't dependent on drops. I play stupid long missions because I enjoy it and not for loot, the only drops I care about are LS capsules because it effects how I play. 

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Just now, SpicyDinosaur said:

I meant the towers drop slower the longer you play. Have you found this to be the case?

I've never noticed that. I know that at the start of a mission they spawn every 90 seconds and there is a max of 8 total towers that can spawn even if there are more possible spawn locations. Once those 8 spawn no others will spawn until you activate one. Next time I run a longer mission I'll try and time tower spawn times by keeping <8 total towers active. 

In some situations I will get rooms that I really like with good enemy flow that have multiple LS tower spawn locations but I didn't find the room until 8 towers were already spawned. In this case I can back track just hitting towers hoping to force the good room to spawn LS towers to make my mission a little more enjoyable. 

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57 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

That was changed 2 years ago in U22.17.
842KRVY.png

looks like they never did it like I thought.

 

I don't know how I feel about it then, with Nekros I am swimming in LS, even in SP kuva survival, but at 8+ hours of survival would give a lot more info than I have ever had.

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Well, the maximum efficiency is killing all spawned enemies in  a blink of an eye, so that's 30 instant kills, ocourse in SP you won't be doing that, but you need a constant killing spree, my sugestion is to use the capsules instead of just hanging in a corner.

Also note that for 5 minutes alteast, no kills are ever necessary to gain the 1st reward, opening crates, lockers and activating life support should be enough, i can see you're strugling 4 minutes in but that's also in part because you're only gathering life support from 1 out of 3 ways

If you combine all 3 ways (altought there is a limit to lockers and crates) you should have an easier time.

Edited by KIREEK
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7 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Well, the maximum efficiency is killing all spawned enemies in  a blink of an eye, so that's 30 instant kills, ocourse in SP you won't be doing that, but you need a constant killing spree, my sugestion is to use the capsules instead of just hanging in a corner.

Also note that for 5 minutes alteast, no kills are ever necessary to gain the 1st reward, opening crates, lockers and activating life support should be enough, i can see you're strugling 4 minutes in but that's also in part because you're only gathering life support from 1 out of 3 ways

If you combine all 3 ways (altought there is a limit to lockers and crates) you should have an easier time.

Thread is about the inconsistent drop rate of life support capsules. In the first mag screen shots I have 1.5kps and am at 10% life support, the other Mag screen shots I have 1,55 kps and I'm at 91%. I'm using the exact same loadout on the same survival node with very similar kps ratio but I have 2 entirely different outcomes. 

Then there is the Khora ss where I have 2.96 kps and I'm at 28% LS after 10 minute but the Zephyr ss I have 1.32kps and I'm at 99% after 10 minutes. Khora more that doubled the Zephyr kps ratio with 1000 more kills yet life support is really low. That should not happen, more kills should mean more LS capsule drops.

There is no consistency to LS capsule drops, it's just rng. I know there are other ways to keep my LS up but to demonstrate how random LS capsule drops are, I didn't use any of those methods. 

I run a lot of very long solo SP survivals and RNG plays a huge role in how I play the mission. I can go 10, 20, 30 minutes and never have to activate a LS tower but 2 minutes later my LS is at 20% because rng just screwed me. My kps ratio hasn't changed, I'm just not getting capsule drops. RNG shouldn't play a role in how a mission plays out IMO. 

What I think is happening is DE lowered the LS capsule drop rate for SP to compensate for the higher spawn rate. With a very low drop rate rng can just screw you and no matter how many kills you make, there will be times when LS capsules just don't drop. I suggest we have a fixed drop rate on kills to capsule so there is some consistency. 

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  • 8 months later...

Inconsistent life support capsule drop rate still bothers me.  

Currently running Nyx solo SP Mot about 1.4 kps and I've had to activate 5 towers in 17 minutes to maintain. Capsules just refuse to drop regularly so far this run. 

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+1

Its tedious to have to activate the towers. Be nice if me simply getting kills quickly was enough so i can spend more time enjoying the game, less time locking my eyes on that lifesupport percentage, 

Nekros is better as just a farming warframe, or players who arent getting kills fast enough. Its not as fun and unnecessary making frames like him the only option for this QoL change.

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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Isn't Obvious.... Survival was Design For Khora/Nekros' and No One Else ...

And you're on The Steel Path so You should expect anything you enjoy to be Completed Invalidated....

I should also Point out Enemies like Lancers and Crewmen were Changed recently to Actively Avoid You.... They will Take Cover from Much Further away now and they will straight up Run away from you as Fast as They Can.... So yeah... It's only gotten Worse lately.... You have to have Use Khora/Nekros'....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I suppose you can use Atlas Too but... Eh.... 

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Just now, Lutesque said:

Isn't Obvious.... Survival was Design For Khora/Nekros' and No One Else ...

And you're on The Steel Path so You should expect anything you enjoy to be Completed Invalidated....

I should also Point out Enemies like Lancers and Crewmen were Changed recently to Actively Avoid You.... They will Take Cover from Much Further away now and they will straight up Run away from you as Fast as They Can.... So yeah... It's only gotten Worse lately.... You have to have Use Khora/Nekros'....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I suppose you can use Atlas Too but... Eh.... 

It's all rng look at the Khora vs zepher pics I posted in this thread. 

Using Khora with pilfer I had 1777 kills in 10 minutes (2.96 kps) and my life support is at 28%

Using Zephyr I have 797 kills in 10 minutes (1.32kps) and my life support is 99%

 

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