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Everyone hates the Corpus Ship defence map right?


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the fact that the map has not been removed or changed since the first week it cames out blows my mind. People literally said it in the first week when the mission was in Sortie... that the map is totally bugged,

 

15 Wave Defence mission takes 45+ minutes!!!! While on any other map it takes 15-20 minutes.

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worst level ingame. worse than uranus defense/ interception. i cant explain how bad this map is. thanks to add this level to the new railjack defense mission..........

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Posted (edited)

it feels like DE is afraid of changing or commenting regarding that issue. (havent seen a single comment from them regarding this) Like "if we say the map is S#&$, thats indirect hate regarding the map design team".... no its not. mistakes can happen don't be afraid of correcting the mistakes. You don't have to feel bad if you tell the Map designers "you made a bad decision"...

 

 

the longer you wait and do nothing or not writing an official statement regarding this... the more anger the community get...

Just disable the map or swap the defence mission to a survival. Quick Fix could make the community happy.

Edited by Luxienna
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On 2021-05-24 at 7:24 PM, DebrisFlow said:

Defense mission doesn't seem to be an appreciated mission type in general, if i correctly remember from some DE-made usage statistics/surveys (still searching for confirmation)

IMO the defense mission type needs a rework: each new enemy wave should force start at fixed time marks (optimally each minute) even if the previous wave has not been cleared. You would only need to do a complete clear every 5 (extraction condition). This would provide multiple advantages: 1) a more engaging experience with a reward for fast clearing (faster mission completion, exactly as now) and a penalty for slow clearing (enemy accumulation); 2) would let ignore the problem of bad AI movement/spawn in convoluted layouts (at least for 4/5 waves); 3) help normalize mission duration with other mission types. 

Any usage statistics would be largely inflated by Hydron anyway.

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This map has existed since the launch of the deadlock protocol. And at the time nobody paid much attention to him and instinctively nobody liked him and simply ignored the map at all costs. But it was added to railjack and it was a bad decision. Hence it gained more spotlight on how bad the map is and it was added in a game mode that we asked for quick missions like the grinner missions in railjack. The team that has developed the corpus maps has not done a good job ... it's just my opinion.

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I think the map itself is actually quite well-designed (it's got lots of different levels and opportunities for parkour), it just clashes horribly with Defense due to how Defense and enemy pathing are implemented. The most obvious problem is that every wave ends up with multiple enemies getting stuck in the level due to incompetent pathfinding, which forces players to then hunt these enemies right down to the spawning areas in this vast map. This is probably why the map feels too big or complex for Defense, because one has to go from one end to the other just to clean up the enemies too stupid to move towards the objective. The other problem is that each wave in Defense is broken up into sub-waves, leading to only a trickle of enemies coming in: on smaller maps, this is fine, because it creates a good enough concentration of enemies to deal with at a time (usually anyway), but on this particular tile, it just feels like the map is largely empty all of the time, and each time enemies take a while to even approach the objective. Thus, more than on any other Defense map, gameplay drags on.

Personally, I think two things ought to change for Defense to work better, both on this tile and in general:

  • Enemy pathfinding, and AI in this game in general, really need improvements. It is not acceptable for a game as old and successful as Warframe to still have enemies get stuck in walls and level geometry.
  • Either waves need to be condensed and sped up, or enemies shouldn't come in waves at all, but rather in an endless stream. If the latter, we should receive rewards based on time spent defending the objective (i.e. 5 minutes instead of 5 waves), rather than waves survived, and also be given an extraction tile so that we can leave at any moment.
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It's funny, this exact defense map was used in the Gift from the Lotus reward today, but with melee only condition. So with the team I did it with we had to be extra hunting for stragglers than usual since, you know, melee. I went with Khora to have range when I caught where the mission was going to be. Even then it took a while to hunt them up and down the map.

It's just seems too much like a coincidence 😅

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Vlaun:

It's funny, this exact defense map was used in the Gift from the Lotus reward today, but with melee only condition. So with the team I did it with we had to be extra hunting for stragglers than usual since, you know, melee. I went with Khora to have range when I caught where the mission was going to be. Even then it took a while to hunt them up and down the map.

It's just seems too much like a coincidence 😅

Tell me about it.. i was Lavos and we even had a saryn, still took forever.. >_<

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On 2021-05-27 at 11:16 AM, Luxienna said:

You don't have to feel bad if you tell the Map designers "you made a bad decision"

Corpus Gas City springs to mind here - not that the new map is bad, but that they changed it to replace the old one. They do update maps, but just not this mission one.

 

I would like to see the Gulliver map change, make it with different locations or areas, like Stephano does with its 2 different layouts. They coudl put the cryopod elsewhere - like the long railway section you defend in Mobile defence. They coudl rework this map slightly - just by changing the spawn points would make the biggest difference.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Gears of War does defence way better (or at least it used to) and by better I just mean that it's fun vs. warframe's boring. It ramps up the stress and pressure in ways you just don't get in WF. Granted, the GOW weapon balance and lack of scaling gives the developer there some different options, not sure how you'd achieve something similar in WF. Anyways, my point isn't to make it 'like GOW' but rather that a fun defence mode is possible with the right design elements. In my entire time playing warframe, I don't think I've ever really enjoyed defence. 

Oh well, having reached MR30 there's scant reason to grind these days which is a good sign it's time for a break. 

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Just a Reminder to keep this topic alive.

the Map it still here and still sucks.

So have to keep reminding DE that it still bugs you.

 

Takes forever for the enemies to find their way from spawn to the objective

the Elevator swapping the location doesn't help either, they still take forever to walk down the ramps.

also not a fan of how Symmetrical the map is, makes if feel boring. The old Corpus defense map was a lot more interesting and varied.

yes, the new one does have similar variety in the side rooms -but we don't go near them because they're too far away.

really, just too big.

 

DE, remember how you Shrank our Railjacks because they were too cumbersome to navigate?

Same problem with this map, needs to be Shrunk as well.

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Eh, it could use a few small tweaks, but I don't mind it.  When you're in RailJack missions, it's GREAT for using your Necramechs! (which is what I use it for, leveling mainly).  All that extra space helps make leaping around (especially with the Jump mod on) much easier as a 'mech than it would be in smaller maps.

Enemies CAN take a bit to get to ya, and it does get a bit crowded when the cryopod platform drops to the lower level, but this is the Corpus' world and we're invading it, lol, it isn't meant to be perfectly suited to the Tenno, after all.

What would you change about it?

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:


What would you change about it?

 

'Jump Pads' on the lower level that launch you to the upper one, clearly marked. So I don't have to hunt for the ramp to climb up. The Circular Symmetry of the  lower floor does not help with this situation.

Deletion of the extra map tiles, especially the very long branching normal corpus ship tileset sections that lead off into all the random storerooms (the places where Syndicate Medallions spawn if you do this map as a Syn Node). too often enemies can spawn way back in these and get stuck.

Force enemy spawn locations to be Exclusively the top floor alcoves, or bottom floor ones, Depending on if the elevator is Up or Down, so they don't get waste time walking up and down the ramps.

 

Alternately, instead of all those complicated changes, just bring back the old Corpus Defense map. With the def platform facing the big glass windows, and the catwalks above. that one was nice because even tho it was multi-floor, there was mostly clear lines of sight between them.

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8 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

 

Takes forever for the enemies to find their way from spawn to the objective

 

And all too frequently they don't even find their way there.  You have to go hunting for them.  Sure, this is a problem on some other defense maps as well (notably the void tile), but it seems to happen far more often on this blighted tile.

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With other maps, Defense takes 4~6 min per 5 rounds, depending on team composition.

This map? It takes 8 or so minutes if *lucky* and possibly more than 10 minutes per 5 rounds!

It is ridiculous and I avoid it whenever possible.

 

However, like others said, it is an interesting map as Interception map.

 

My suggestion? Remove the 'bottom floor', the part that isn't used for Interception.

This way it stays same good map for Interception while removing most of enemies being stuck/out of reach in Defense and lengthening the game unnecessarily in Defense.

 

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On 2021-05-23 at 8:58 PM, Guybrush88 said:

Everyone hates the Corpus Ship defence map right?

91 Up Votes and Counting.... Yeah I think it's safe to say that map sucks Donkey Balls.

 

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On 2021-06-16 at 4:01 AM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

'Jump Pads' on the lower level that launch you to the upper one, clearly marked. So I don't have to hunt for the ramp to climb up. The Circular Symmetry of the  lower floor does not help with this situation.

Deletion of the extra map tiles, especially the very long branching normal corpus ship tileset sections that lead off into all the random storerooms (the places where Syndicate Medallions spawn if you do this map as a Syn Node). too often enemies can spawn way back in these and get stuck.

Force enemy spawn locations to be Exclusively the top floor alcoves, or bottom floor ones, Depending on if the elevator is Up or Down, so they don't get waste time walking up and down the ramps.

 

Alternately, instead of all those complicated changes, just bring back the old Corpus Defense map. With the def platform facing the big glass windows, and the catwalks above. that one was nice because even tho it was multi-floor, there was mostly clear lines of sight between them.

You DO realize that the game isn't meant to just be a statue simulator, right?

The fact that we need to move around a bit to accomplish the mission isn't a bug, it's a feature.  It's the POINT.

We have MORE than enough mobility to get from one floor to the other in seconds...  We have AoE weapons abound that can easily dispatch enemies on ramps above/below us without us needing to be face-to-face.  

If you're going to just spend time sitting at the cryopod WAITING for enemies to come to YOU, then yeah, it takes some time.
But if ya take the initiative to run about, hunt 'em down, and get to them first, it's not that bad.

It's not a PERFECT level, no, and it's definitely one of my less-favorite Corpus Defense tilesets, but it's not "bad", either.  

I mean, respectfully, it just seems like what y'all want is an "easy" tileset that makes standing in one place and clearing everything out in seconds possible...  I mean, just use Saryn, then :/ 

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54 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You DO realize that the game isn't meant to just be a statue simulator, right?

The fact that we need to move around a bit to accomplish the mission isn't a bug, it's a feature.  It's the POINT.

We have MORE than enough mobility to get from one floor to the other in seconds...  We have AoE weapons abound that can easily dispatch enemies on ramps above/below us without us needing to be face-to-face.  

If you're going to just spend time sitting at the cryopod WAITING for enemies to come to YOU, then yeah, it takes some time.
But if ya take the initiative to run about, hunt 'em down, and get to them first, it's not that bad.

It's not a PERFECT level, no, and it's definitely one of my less-favorite Corpus Defense tilesets, but it's not "bad", either.  

I mean, respectfully, it just seems like what y'all want is an "easy" tileset that makes standing in one place and clearing everything out in seconds possible...  I mean, just use Saryn, then :/ 

The enemy mapping doesn't work right on that map, they constantly just stand in the back doing nothing. Overall I find it just to be a very boring design...but that kind of applies to every single Defense mission in Warframe. All the game types are already easy, do I don't think people are just looking for an easy tileset, just more interesting better designed ones that make sense. 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You DO realize that the game isn't meant to just be a statue simulator, right?

The fact that we need to move around a bit to accomplish the mission isn't a bug, it's a feature.  It's the POINT.

We have MORE than enough mobility to get from one floor to the other in seconds...  We have AoE weapons abound that can easily dispatch enemies on ramps above/below us without us needing to be face-to-face.  

If you're going to just spend time sitting at the cryopod WAITING for enemies to come to YOU, then yeah, it takes some time.
But if ya take the initiative to run about, hunt 'em down, and get to them first, it's not that bad.

It's not a PERFECT level, no, and it's definitely one of my less-favorite Corpus Defense tilesets, but it's not "bad", either.  

I mean, respectfully, it just seems like what y'all want is an "easy" tileset that makes standing in one place and clearing everything out in seconds possible...  I mean, just use Saryn, then :/ 

It's hardly fitting for a Defense mission to have you hunting the enemies who are supposed to be attacking.

The big downside with the map is that both states of the objective are problematic specifically for the Corpus. In the elevated position, they have to get really close to actually be able to shoot the pod, meaning they have to navigate the labyrinth of platforms and ramps from something like 70-100m away, but at the same time they try to take cover from and fire on the Tenno roaming around, so they're very slow to actually converge. In the lower position, the platform is completely protected from above and only has 4 choke points for the Corpus to shoot through, replicating the problem from before but shifting the traffic on the downward ramps instead.

However, the map makes for a great Interception map because the radio towers are very accessible to enemy spawn points except for, unsurprisingly, the central tower, and the completion time of that mission isn't directly tied to how quickly you can kill the enemies who happen to get lost on the way from the bathroom.

So the real issue isn't necessarily just the fact that it's a big map. The Corpus Outpost Defense tilesets are huge too, especially the one with the catwalks. The map's design itself actively works against the Corpus in the Tenno's favor by having that large structure dominating the middle of the atrium multiplied by the pathfinding AI struggling with the terrain. Earth/Mars Defense tiles have the same problems to a much lesser degree, but those are limited to 1 node each on the entire star chart and so people just power through them when necessary then go back to never playing there.

Compare it to the other Defense maps and you see the flaw in the layout:

  • Orokin Defense: Floorplan is very open and enemies are able to make a beeline toward the objective.
  • Asteroid Defense: Floorplan is very open and enemies are able to make a beeline toward the objective.
  • Galleon Defense: Floorplan is very direct in both objective states and can be attacked from all sides, including above when the platform lowers.
  • Infested Defense: Pretty much a backed-up-against-the-wall floorplan with a few Infested coming in from the sides, but Infested naturally charge the objective so they have less pathing issues.
  • Europa Defense: Open floorplan on one side and funneled hallways on the other, plus high visibility for all parties.
  • Lua Defense: Bowl shape at the start makes it a highly challenging introduction. Second arena has more obstacles but still fairly direct pathways. Final arena has way more obstacles around the objective but straightforward ways for the enemies to actually reach.
  • Uranus Defense: No.
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