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We have community-designed Warframes. What about community-driven reworks?


Perfectly_Framed_Waifu

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There are a number of frames in the game that are in some need of a rework, and there are definitely folks on these forums who love coming up with reworks for different frames. To give us players some interactivity and insight into what's to come, wouldn't it be neat if we could do some community-driven reworks? I'm not asking for a rework now (at least not in this post), but for this to be something to be considered for future reworks, if this idea turns out to be popular.

I can imagine some simple process like the following:

Step 1: Picking a Warframe
The community is given a list of around 5 frames to vote on. The one with most votes gets a rework.

Purely for example, let's say Loki is picked.

Step 2: Rework suggestions
The devs lay out some basic guidelines and limitations, under which the players are free to come up with a rework - be it for the whole frame, some abilities, or just general ideas.

Continuing the Loki example, the devs might say the following:

  • Keep the trickster theme in mind.
  • He needs to have some form of invisibility.
  • The decoy should remain in some form.
  • Exalted weapons are likely to not be considered.
  • No energy-restoring abilities.
  • To fit his theme, no straight-forward damage abilities.

Step 3: The devs do theirs
After the community has given their input, the devs read through the suggestions and create a rework based on that, taking popular suggestions into account if they're not too far outside the guidelines and limitations. Once a complete rework has been decided, they tell the community and start working on implementing it.

Continuing the example, a popular idea for remote mines is not added, while the exalted dagger focused on finisher damage makes the cut, replacing his 3 which instead becomes a part of the new Tap/Hold-style Decoy / Switch Teleport.

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A welcome idea...For the players.

For DE, a threat of great magnitude, Avengers-tier.

We could rework them into oblivion with our endless supply of imagination & genuine interest in improving the game. It's incredibly unlikely though, as it "takes away resources from more important tasks", or something like that.

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15 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

A welcome idea...For the players.

For DE, a threat of great magnitude, Avengers-tier.

We could rework them into oblivion with our endless supply of imagination & genuine interest in improving the game. It's incredibly unlikely though, as it "takes away resources from more important tasks", or something like that.

I don’t see it taking resources tho. In fact, it will help the devs due to the fact that we just did half of the job for them. They don’t need to do brainstorming, just apply the idea.

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Just now, DrivaMain said:

I don’t see it taking resources tho. In fact, it will help the devs we just did half of the job for them. They don’t need to do brainstorming, just apply the idea.

They'd need to do a lot still.

A lot of community suggestions are contradictory to each other or... well, just kind of stink. And I say that knowing full well some of my own suggestions are amongst the 'just stink' number.

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8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

They'd need to do a lot still.

Yeah, the main incentive wouldn't be as much for easening the redesign phase (if at all), as for increasing the chance of satisfaction for the community. (Though there will always be some people unhappy with the results, particularly when their ideas don't get chosen.)

With the community being able to choose the frame they think need a rework the most, you could avoid scenarios where (to conjure a worst-case scenario) Hydroid's wave gets combo casting and another minor change, then nothing else for years despite him (in this example) being the frame in most need of a complete rework, according to the community.

 

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The Design Council does in fact do this but on a smaller scale ever since Nova. Augment mods are currently the common selection for community input. 
They also listen and apparently remember a lot of ideas and concepts they like. 
For Example, not that anyone can but if they could go back into the community created warframe poll/suggestions from the nekros/nova war, i had put some ideas and concepts for nekros which have now been reused and modified to fit Sevagoth. That thread was also chalk full of time themed warframe ideas (one of which was mine) and some of those ideas became proteas time anchor ability.

 

DE never just outright uses anything we as a community post on the forum. But they will 'like' an idea and implement it in a DE timeline and in a DE way in a DE future. Probably as to avoid legal issues where someone would claim their idea was stolen and they werent compensated. Even though im pretty sure the ToS and EULA indicate anything we say on the forums is the property of DE at that point.

While i do like most of your banshee changes, and if DE does as well, it is unlikely you'll hear from them. Instead youll see your idea in one form or another be introduced into the game in a far future.

The design council doesnt get to suggest anything willy nilly. Just when asked and only about oddly specific things, IE augment mod ideas. Its usually just voting and polling (or at least was for a long time since Nova).

 

EDIT: to reiterate,

DE does in fact do community driven reworks, but in their own way. And they do read and pass on the best of ideas and concepts from the suggestion forums (from my 8 years of observation).

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44 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

@Zhoyzu Kinda understandable, but still a shame. If that's how it works, it feels like the polar opposite of transparency, plus that it risks the game ending up with a lot of "frame/ability X which is just a better frame/ability Y".

Fortunately, for DE this is also a passion project so you dont see a lot of "frame/ability X which is just a better frame/ability Y". there are some cross overs sure and some that do similar things albeit in a different way (desecrate/pilfer hydroid). While i havent enjoyed every change since closed beta and have been very vocal about some i can't argue that those changes havent also made the game better in the long run. (still salty AF about the melee changes)

As far as DE and transparency goes they've never been totally transparent, which is understandable. if they say they are going to do something but cant get to it for a few years or cant implement it in a way that works, the community would start to become agitated and worse. This is why they are only transparent up to the point before they are going to launch something which is where you get all the transparency we really need (devstreams). 
They also hint at things they want to work on or recognize need adjustments without making promises which in hindsight is usually for the best.

So if you think you've got a good idea write it down in a clear/concise/constructive manner (like ya did with the banshee revamp) is the best we can do. The Design council is mostly just a formality from the founders packages and really doesnt do much anymore, and is for the most part meaningless lol.

 

Edit: i dont think you're stupid or anything i've been out of the loop on hiatus ever since they removed the melee mode from the game, only coming back a few days ago. so im just kinda railing off what i know through observation. good chance what im saying is no longer true as well since it was a long time i was gone. Exiting post before i talk myself a circle.

 

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2 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

We have community-designed Warframes. What about community-driven reworks?

Hopefully never...

90% of the community either lacks the ability to balance out abilities or has a bias towards any frame aside that which they deem good. This would give DE a much larger headache sorting out what is conceivable.

Every now and then some player makes a topic proposing reworks to frames that are already above average in utility and damage, wanting changes that turns a already powerful nuke frame into outrageously OP machines of mass destruction.

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19 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Every now and then some player makes a topic proposing reworks to frames that are already above average in utility and damage, wanting changes that turns a already powerful nuke frame into outrageously OP machines of mass destruction.

Yeah, that's kinda why I suggested that the dev put up a handful of frames to vote on, not the entire roster. 

As for the amount of feedback they'd have to sift through... From what I can tell from the forum post, it appears that Xaku didn't even get 15 full pages worth of ability ideas once Broken the theme was decided. That's like 2-3 hotfixes worth of comments, or less than 1 for some updates. While the idea comments would naturally be longer on average, that's still not a lot to skim through. Finding that good 10% would definitely be doable.

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I have been saying that DE needs to ask use for ideas/feedback first and actually listen to feedback. I say Ash needs a revisit and ppl say "he`s perfect" and get upset with me but he`s not, Ash has issues most ppl don`t know about.

The reason being because;

  • People use two of his augment 24/7 to the point where they completely ignore the issues of the abilities and act like they are ok.
  • The way people use him and talk about him ("oh he can use seeking shuriken to strip armour and can kill lvl 100+ with bs) they can`t see his issues in a general sense.

The next thing am about to say will sound outrages but it true which what I say to ppl.

"In a team he can kill lvl 100+ enemies but he can`t kill enemies as low as lvl 6" 

it`s like a real life nuke destroying everything but it couldn`t kill one single rat, Ash is the only wf that has this dumb issue which makes no since and when I say this to ppl they completely miss the point.

Here is a post about a revisit to Ash that shows the revisit ideas, a vid with time stamps of what the ideas would look like in-game, how would the revisit impact gameplay in certain scenarios in gameplay and a link that shows the reason why Ash needs a revisit based on his issues stats and things you can try out for yourself.

Take a look for you interested and tell me what you think on the post.

Here is a stat where Ash mains that love his bladestorm should be shocked about this and proves my point about the state of Ash.

"This shows the most replaced abilities on Ash based on the people that has use the helminth system. As you can see his Shuriken is the most replaced coz without it`s augment ppl aren’t not using it and Blade Storm is the 2nd most replaced ability, which to me is no surprise. Despite it doing 2,000 damage at base, doing slash damage, true damage and can be increased by the combo multi, if an ability can do all that there is no way in heck it should be so high, why is it so high? It`s simple because of the marking mechanic and how slow it is."

hlv1zuac90t51.png?width=1636&format=png&auto=webp&s=a04d9add85e5914d7234dd53ecf3606982eac06d

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb BiancaRoughfin:

Hopefully never...

90% of the community either lacks the ability to balance out abilities or has a bias towards any frame aside that which they deem good. This would give DE a much larger headache sorting out what is conceivable.

Every now and then some player makes a topic proposing reworks to frames that are already above average in utility and damage, wanting changes that turns a already powerful nuke frame into outrageously OP machines of mass destruction.

Meme Reaction GIF by Robert E Blackmon

Btw. I would increase the number to 99,9%.

And what is more important is that even if the player knows how to balance things there's still the thing if he/ she is the "fitting" person.

As an example. Let's say I give my opinion about this Banshee rework.

  • My Playstyle:
    • Mostly melee user, but if the target is really to far away I use bows or other single target weapons (mostly burst weapons)
    • Typical quick, tricky, strong attack playstyle
      • For the ones who don't what I mean: I use an opening in my own defense to force my enemy to attack me. And while he's trying to attack me I use this moment to beat him.
    • Use parcour mechanics while fighting
    • Banshee skill& experience level: 3/10
  • What I want in a rework:
    • No automatic play possibilities.
    • Endless growing potential, which let the frame become an unstoppable God, when he reached the the peak of endless missions.
    • Every ability should always be useful.

 

  • Typical Bansee playstyle:
    • Melee& gun specialists
    • Defensive playstyle
      • Waiting for the perfect moment to strike.
    • Need to stay in one spot for the best results.
    • One i
    • One of the hardest warframes to use. (There's a reason why nobody under rank 10 use her)

And now the big question. Should I have the right to say my opinion about this rework. Do I have the knowledge? Am I someone with the fitting playstyle?

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8 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

And now the big question. Should I have the right to say my opinion about this rework. Do I have the knowledge? Am I someone with the fitting playstyle?

And the follow-up questions. Should frames be locked to a single playstyle? Is multiple sources of input for how a frame is played not valuable to the devs? Is it better to give some preemptive feedback, or not say a peep and end up repeating the following?

1 hour ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

this was because of a change of one ability… bladestorm and because of this he became one of the 8 least used warframes in 2018.

 

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vor 24 Minuten schrieb Perfectly_Framed_Waifu:

And the follow-up questions. Should frames be locked to a single playstyle? Is multiple sources of input for how a frame is played not valuable to the devs? Is it better to give some preemptive feedback, or not say a peep and end up repeating the following?

Yes and no. It's valuable because opinions from other playstyles prevent that a frame can become to strong, but these opinions should mostly used just for that. Otherwise it can turn the frame into a mix of these both playstyles which is normally neither perfect for people of playstyle A or B (Oberon is a perfect example of an allrounde playstyle mixed with defensive playstyle). Not gonna say that a perfect mix between both is impossible, but it's hard, very very hard.

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I think it's a great idea.  I'm surprised people are so worried about all the crappy ideas and crazy balancing we'll come up with.  DE isn't just going to copy and paste every detail of anybody's suggestions. Their version could end up flawed in all kinds of ways, but that's all on DE.  And guess what?  They're perfectly capable of making mistakes without any player input.  That's what iteration and (hopefully) tuning after release is for, regardless of who the original concepts came from.

It would generate a lot of enthusiasm and  brainstorming, and--done well--a feeling of community involvement. Which I think is all that's important compared to the usual reworks that originate solely from DE.

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36 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It would generate a lot of enthusiasm and  brainstorming, and--done well--a feeling of community involvement. Which I think is all that's important compared to the usual reworks that originate solely from DE.

My thoughts exactly. But yeah, as seen in this thread though, there appears to be a lot of pessimism aimed towards the community itself 🤷‍♀️

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8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

My thoughts exactly. But yeah, as seen in this thread though, there appears to be a lot of pessimism aimed towards the community itself 🤷‍♀️

Well, to be fair, we are pretty dumb.   💖

But hey, it's win-win AFAIC.   DE gets a few good ideas, we get to see hordes of bad ideas coming out of the wordwork.

bored april ludgate GIF

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