For veterans bored of game like i am

[Dunkelheit]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb DragonFox16:

Affection, habit or the lack of experience that such a thing can happen.

I can understand that sometimes it can be hard to accept that something you enjoyed for 2-3 years suddenly isn't fun anymore. And I can also understand that one thought can be that it's because of the game. After all, you yourself haven't changed, right? Yeah...

At this point, however, I do not want to exclude that it could still be due to the game. :-P But no one comes to the conclusion to blame themselves for not liking the change of the game anymore.  😅

Honestly, you have my respect. You patiently answer this thread with calm and well thought out answers. I need to be honest, I typed a lengthy and completely sarcastic answer and deleted it, because it was super unfriendly.

Having played Tetris, PacMan, super Mario and other stuff I have absolutely no patience or understanding for complainers who get bored after 234.629 hours in the game AND BLAME THIS ON THE DEVs AND THE GAME instead of thanking them for a great time. The entitlement in forums these days completely lack the respect for a game and its developers who are successful for 8 years now.

Warframe is an astonishing and monumental achievement, nothing else. And oh, if any poor little Millenial becomes bored, so god help us, maybe it is time to get a job and buy another game.

[lowgrav]

when i get bored of the game i think of why? the missions at the start are the same the story quests are replayable there is easter eggs in the lvls i havent found yet so what has changed that made me lose interest is it not chalanging? well thats down to if i use my good weapons or a weapon that is not tacticaly good but has a feature that makes me keep it (it is good for low to mid and thats it) so the chalange is there potentialy so that cant be the issue so i think back to before i got this game when i saw it in steam what made me pick this game over the others i could have spent my time on

when you relise that you will find out why your bored now and not after 20 min when you started as i think something has changed and because the early stuff is still there i dont think the issue is with the game the grind was always there there is stuff in the lvls that i havent seen youtubers cover to discover what is the reason its there for the exploration side

[Alpha_Tango]

6 hours ago, DragonFox16 said:

I sometimes find it amusing that people complain that something is getting boring. After playing it for 2000 hours or more....

It would not be if all those hours of playing amount to something.

I know it is still just a game, but all the building, strengthening, testing should be put to the test ...eventually. I enjoy every bit of those if we may call them preparations already. However, this game barely offer anything satisfying either in terms of challenge or reward. I am not really a vet yet but hours makes me feel that way. I am kind of stuck and would even dare say have enough of new warframes, game modes, hyped grinds like building necramechs and RJ. 

To elaborate (from my previous post), World of Tanks is not only about collecting, well, tanks. Going up the tech tree to snatch higher tiered tanks involves improving your tactics, knowledge of the tanks weaknesses, strengths, maps, proper positioning when engaged, etc. All of that adds up when in a battle with 14 other allied players vs. another fifteen. If I play a Heavy, besides destroying ofc, my job is to plug bottlenecks, absorb damage and delay enemy advance enough for the artillery to pound on them or the sniping tank destroyers to finish or cover me. That feeling when roles and strategy works well hand in hand gets me a high that I relish watching it again on replays. Here, we are gods, I know that is impossible to expect. But still here I am hoping patiently that someday it will give me that experience.

In Final fantasy XIV online,  roles are well established. You can be a god too but damn they really made the game dependent on how well oiled a squad functions. From healing to DPS down to the "dance" we do on mostly great telegraphed boss fights. The story, omfg, ever magnificent . There is a lingering grind for almost everything too, but clans function so well with crafters in tow that nothing is ever difficult to get. Well, at least if you are a raiding clan. You practice, hone your skills, equip because there is a clear reason for it ...the next challenge. 

It is unfair to compare WF to those games and demand things but OP wanted us to find games and I am just sharing what I am already doing. DE has the potential to do more, they have all the creativity and skills to do so. But 3K + in, I am still here waiting, just collecting and still grinding. Having bits of fun alright but there must be a purpose or an end, if not the story then to all this hoarding of beautifully made warframes I got. Maybe fashion frame is really the end game after all, I hope not.

[Hypernaut1]

26 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

. It's not fun to have the lever-action rifle I like using have a several second killtime on one guy (whilst I'm being shot at) whilst your average, boring meta explosive weapon kills everything that shares a postcode with my target in one shot.

I do hate when I'm forced to play solo because of how overwhelming the meta can be at times. 

[DragonFox16]

45 minutes ago, Alpha_Tango said:

It would not be if all those hours of playing amount to something.

I know it is still just a game, but all the building, strengthening, testing should be put to the test ...eventually. I enjoy every bit of those if we may call them preparations already. However, this game barely offer anything satisfying either in terms of challenge or reward. I am not really a vet yet but hours makes me feel that way. I am kind of stuck and would even dare say have enough of new warframes, game modes, hyped grinds like building necramechs and RJ. 

To elaborate (from my previous post), World of Tanks is not only about collecting, well, tanks. Going up the tech tree to snatch higher tiered tanks involves improving your tactics, knowledge of the tanks weaknesses, strengths, maps, proper positioning when engaged, etc. All of that adds up when in a battle with 14 other allied players vs. another fifteen. If I play a Heavy, besides destroying ofc, my job is to plug bottlenecks, absorb damage and delay enemy advance enough for the artillery to pound on them or the sniping tank destroyers to finish or cover me. That feeling when roles and strategy works well hand in hand gets me a high that I relish watching it again on replays. Here, we are gods, I know that is impossible to expect. But still here I am hoping patiently that someday it will give me that experience.

In Final fantasy XIV online,  roles are well established. You can be a god too but damn they really made the game dependent on how well oiled a squad functions. From healing to DPS down to the "dance" we do on mostly great telegraphed boss fights. The story, omfg, ever magnificent . There is a lingering grind for almost everything too, but clans function so well with crafters in tow that nothing is ever difficult to get. Well, at least if you are a raiding clan. You practice, hone your skills, equip because there is a clear reason for it ...the next challenge. 

It is unfair to compare WF to those games and demand things but OP wanted us to find games and I am just sharing what I am already doing. DE has the potential to do more, they have all the creativity and skills to do so. But 3K + in, I am still here waiting, just collecting and still grinding. Having bits of fun alright but there must be a purpose or an end, if not the story then to all this hoarding of beautifully made warframes I got. Maybe fashion frame is really the end game after all, I hope not.

You are comparing a multiplayer tactical shooter with a PVE grind shooter. What's next? Waframe doesn't have the tactical depth of chess?

Sorry for the sarcasm. You wrote that yourself. The comparison is unfair. And you don't have to compare everything to everything.

Especially since I disagree with half of the comparison. I am quite a "good" World of Tanks player. My XVN was just under 2000. I've played 16,000 battles and have many T10 tanks in the garage. I claim to know the game.
Even in World of Tanks, an event where you have to do 100,000 damage or destroy X tanks feels like a grind.Even "leveling" a tank line to have the T10 in the garage is a grind. I often started calculating. I need 340 battles on the T9. One battle is on average 6 minutes. 36 hours of playing time. Add to that the fact that the T9 is maybe a bad tank or no fun, but you still want the T10. Then you have a grind. Burnout in World of Tanks was a real potential as burnout in World of Warcraft, Warframe or all the other games without a defined end.
And even in World of Tanks, just because you drive a tank on T9 or T10 doesn't mean you do it well. It essentially just means you've done it for a long time. I have met players in my time in World of Tanks who I have rightly classified as having a high tolerance for suffering. Over 10,000 or even 20,000 games with a 35% win rate is something you often see.
Good players have a shorter grind because they generate more experience per game. But that doesn't stop players from driving in high tiers and still not being good.

This to World of Tanks. :-P

 

I don't think anyone who plays Warframe long enough will say that the game has no weaknesses and points to improve. And I hope no one will say that Warframe covers the whole range of possible gaming emotions and experiences either. But I don't think any game does that. The hobby of gaming is diverse and Warframe is a small part.

I can only say that about myself personally. For me, Warframe delivers a playground for creative build and very well realised gun/gameplay. Warframe for me is not a super valuable gaming experience, no immersive, no superlative as i expect to have it from witcher 3 for example. Warframe for me is the game I play when I just want fast action, when I don't want to think too much, when I want to be with my head somewhere else, when I listen to music or podcast, when i just have 30 minutes in between, when i wake up in the night and can't get back to sleep. Or just to have some good time with some friends during some beer and smack talk without getting our asses whooped in counter strike and such.
Warframe is my niche for that and it fills it absolutely splendidly because i gives me what i expect. From time to time i want stupid tasks that are still enjoyable to do. And then there are bugs you can laugh about.

There may be games that do exactly that. But Warframe is just enough for me. And at some point I still get bored and then I switch. I have 1300 games in my steam library. Warframe is really only a small part.

[Loza03]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I do hate when I'm forced to play solo because of how overwhelming the meta can be at times. 

Even in solo it gets... very evident sometimes when DE are designing around bringing a Bramma or a Kuva Ogris.

[DesertedSpirit]

Honestly, people complain about the wrong things about this game so much yet they keep throwing money at DE and hoping they would become better. Spoiler alert, it doesn't work that way. Companies don't care about the players nor your feelings, even if they seem down to earth or otherwise approachable. At the end of the day they are looking to make a profit. Now, the best way for DE to make money is by attracting new players to the game, and no forum discussion threads, youtube videos, reddit threads, or tweets on twitter, that will change how DE is operating now.

Players need to stop treating DE like they care because they don't and if they really wanted change in this game they should vote with their wallet. This company much like every other company out there only do real changes when it affects the bottom line. That was the main reason DE seemingly was so transparent during the early days of warframe because they weren't so financially sound back then and were willing to do whatever to make players stay and spend money on the game. Now that the game is famous and a lot of people play it, they don't have to do much anymore to make profit so they stopped trying.

It isn't up to us what happens with DE when we start making decisions with out wallets. If DE realizes their lack of effort is killing the game financially then good for everyone warframe will become better because DE will be forced to listen again or the game will die. If the game does die then it's DE that brought it to themselves. The players merely made a smart financial decision not to invest in a game that is being used to siphon off money from new and existing players without much relatively good updates done over the recent years to compensate.

Not making a TLDR for this post because people need to read all of this to understand.

[Jarriaga]

7 hours ago, DragonFox16 said:

I sometimes find it amusing that people complain that something is getting boring. After playing it for 2000 hours or more....

I don't know about you, but I did not play 2000 hours expecting for DE to keep giving me tools (Weapons, Arcanes, mods, abilities) without giving me the proper place to use them. This is something I touched upon 2 years ago when Rebecca herself publicly acknowledged that lack of challenge/engagement leads to boredom:

On 2019-10-07 at 4:37 PM, Jarriaga said:

That is an extreme strawman. And by the same token, if we take the "power fantasy" argument to its extreme logical conclusion with no regards to engagement or growth then I should have had all of that within 10 minutes of starting the game, which is equally as stupid.

You do not need to come from other games in order to recognize there's a moment in the game in which you hit a progression brick wall. As Mono-Pop pointed out the game felt a lot more rewarding and engaging at the beginning. Looking back, when I started the game, it was a lot more difficult. I even played stealth with Excal to avoid getting damaged because with my Endo reserves and credits I was a soft target. I had not invested in forma or catalysts either because I had no plat and I wasn't buying yet because I didn't feel invested-enough into the game's world until I completed the Second Dream.

It felt more like a power fantasy to me because I was struggling and succeeding. I got my ass handed over to me by a few specters. I could not complete defense missions on my own. It was a different and more satisfying experience when I didn't even have a maxed-out Vitality in my arsenal.

Then I started getting enough Endo to max-out my mods. Then I started getting Primed mods. Then I started adding 6 Forma to my frames. Then I got Rivens. Then I got corrupted mods. Then I got Arcanes. Then I got the Umbra set...... But the rest of the game didn't scale with me. I didn't need to come from another game to see that, because I was enjoying the game and felt appropriately challenged up until this point.

Less effort for the same result is objectively more powerful, you are right there and I'm not going to argue that, but the end result is having "that much power" is boredom because your growth is not paired with something that makes you feel you've grown and that you are powerful. What you feel instead is automation because engagement decreased.

Furthermore:

On 2019-10-07 at 8:12 PM, Jarriaga said:

My growth rate continued to grow disproportionately with regards to how I was approaching the game and how the game reacted to me. It started to feel like instead of killing enemies, I was killing ants by pouring molten aluminum down their nest. Meaning, extremely one-sided, and therefore no longer engaging.

To me, the enemies that show up just 1 hour into Arbitration feel like the enemies I should be fighting by default. I miss the struggle. I miss the adrenaline of barely surviving a mob and having to run away to reload or find some health orbs. I miss feeling like it's not just a numbers game.

I had that in the early game. 

To that, some users countered with the usual "Then just remove some mods and limit your power level". By the same token, why not just play using your feet while you hang down from a rope if you must handicap yourself because the devs didn't design around the power levels and tools that they themselves give you?

I'd encourage you to try to be more understanding of people who are feeling bored after 2000 hours of gameplay because of a single tiny detail: DE kept giving you power levels that far outclassed the game's difficulty curve. The game itself feels very different (In a less satisfying way) the longer you play not because of RNG or repetition, but because the game's intrinsic satisfaction value gets eroded by virtue of the gap in player growth vs. content designed for such levels of player growth.

[Alpha_Tango]

3 minutes ago, DragonFox16 said:

You are comparing a multiplayer tactical shooter with a PVE grind shooter. What's next? Waframe doesn't have the tactical depth of chess?

Sorry for the sarcasm. You wrote that yourself. The comparison is unfair. And you don't have to compare everything to everything.

Especially since I disagree with half of the comparison. I am quite a "good" World of Tanks player. My XVN was just under 2000. I've played 16,000 battles and have many T10 tanks in the garage. I claim to know the game.
Even in World of Tanks, an event where you have to do 100,000 damage or destroy X tanks feels like a grind.Even "leveling" a tank line to have the T10 in the garage is a grind. I often started calculating. I need 340 battles on the T9. One battle is on average 6 minutes. 36 hours of playing time. Add to that the fact that the T9 is maybe a bad tank or no fun, but you still want the T10. Then you have a grind.
And even in World of Tanks, just because you drive a tank on T9 or T10 doesn't mean you do it well. It essentially just means you've done it for a long time. I have met players in my time in World of Tanks who I have rightly classified as having a high tolerance for suffering. Over 10,000 or even 20,000 games with a 35% win rate is something you often see.
Good players have a shorter grind because they generate more experience per game. But that doesn't stop players from driving in high tiers and still not being good.

This to World of Tanks. :-P

Damn a fellow Tenno Tanker!

I am not a pretty bad player too. from a 45% to 50%+ now (I would even share my stats if not for fear of losing my account🤣). I got only five T10 tanks right now and not even using them all the time because it is costly. I like T8-T9 matches more and play heavies and TD's most of the time. Too bad I just recently discovered how exciting playing light tanks can be.

I don't mind the sarcasm. I did say it was unfair. But both have the elements of everything related to a grinding game. The point I am trying to drive at is the experience that leads to boredom.  Everything we do even for games, there must be a purpose, even for the sake of entertainment. The other games I mentioned kills boredom simply because I grind for something I have a use for... an equally challenging opponent. Right now, for those of us who have everything in WF, we are already armed to the teeth and yet still no genuine war to go to. The closest functioning grouped challenge here is still the Eidolons and Profit Taker that even some of us can do solo.

[Faylis_Altier]

When you don't gain the knowledge to excel on your own, accomplishments feel very hollow. 

If you cheese your way to the top by copy and paste setups and tactics because "mu efficiency" how do you expect to enjoy the summit. 

I have done this in the past and it's has always ended badly.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

3 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

I have absolutely no patience or understanding for complainers who get bored after 234.629 hours in the game AND BLAME THIS ON THE DEVs AND THE GAME

 

This is an incredibly short sighted line of thinking. Just because someone had a blast in their first thousand hours reaching the late game doesn’t mean there aren’t valid complaints with the late game.

I love Warframe and have had a great time playing it, but DE does struggle to make content for the late game player. Like someone else said in the thread, they’re making this game for new players with fresh wallets. And that’s perfectly fine, DE has to look out for their bottom line, but that doesn’t invalidate the feedback and complaints of long time players.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't know about you, but I did not play 2000 hours expecting for DE to keep giving me tools (Weapons, Arcanes, mods, abilities) without giving me the proper place to use them. This is something I touched upon 2 years ago when Rebecca herself publicly acknowledged that lack of challenge/engagement leads to boredom:

Furthermore:

To that, some users countered with the usual "Then just remove some mods and limit your power level". By the same token, why not just play using your feet while you hang down from a rope if you must handicap yourself because the devs didn't design around the power levels and tools that they themselves give you?

I'd encourage you to try to be more understanding of people who are feeling bored after 2000 hours of gameplay because of a single tiny detail: DE kept giving you power levels that far outclassed the game's difficulty curve. The game itself feels very different (In a less satisfying way) the longer you play not because of RNG or repetition, but because the game's intrinsic satisfaction value gets eroded by virtue of the gap in player growth vs. content designed for such levels of player growth.

Just quoting to say this is very well said.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

3 hours ago, Alpha_Tango said:

In Final fantasy XIV online,  roles are well established. You can be a god too but damn they really made the game dependent on how well oiled a squad functions. From healing to DPS down to the "dance" we do on mostly great telegraphed boss fights. The story, omfg, ever magnificent . There is a lingering grind for almost everything too, but clans function so well with crafters in tow that nothing is ever difficult to get. Well, at least if you are a raiding clan. You practice, hone your skills, equip because there is a clear reason for it ...the next challenge.

Someone else who gets it!

 

 

3 hours ago, Alpha_Tango said:

It is unfair to compare WF to those games and demand things but OP wanted us to find games and I am just sharing what I am already doing. DE has the potential to do more, they have all the creativity and skills to do so. But 3K + in, I am still here waiting, just collecting and still grinding. Having bits of fun alright but there must be a purpose or an end, if not the story then to all this hoarding of beautifully made warframes I got. Maybe fashion frame is really the end game after all, I hope not.

I disagree...to an extent of course. DE could learn a lot from FF14 just in terms of presenting the story. DE could have made it so that the story weaved together, had breadcrumbs that lead new players from one story to the next, just given new players  cohesive experience. But no, they redid the starting level and called it a day. Sigh.

[DragonFox16]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't know about you, but I did not play 2000 hours expecting for DE to keep giving me tools (Weapons, Arcanes, mods, abilities) without giving me the proper place to use them. This is something I touched upon 2 years ago when Rebecca herself publicly acknowledged that lack of challenge/engagement leads to boredom:

Furthermore:

To that, some users countered with the usual "Then just remove some mods and limit your power level". By the same token, why not just play using your feet while you hang down from a rope if you must handicap yourself because the devs didn't design around the power levels and tools that they themselves give you?

I'd encourage you to try to be more understanding of people who are feeling bored after 2000 hours of gameplay because of a single tiny detail: DE kept giving you power levels that far outclassed the game's difficulty curve. The game itself feels very different (In a less satisfying way) the longer you play not because of RNG or repetition, but because the game's intrinsic satisfaction value gets eroded by virtue of the gap in player growth vs. content designed for such levels of player growth.

Nah. You are right. The game has flaws. I said it too. And everybody has the right to complain.

The thing you quotet me on was related to grinding and RNG. And i think this was pretty obvious from the beginning of the game or lets say, first 30-50 hours that this game is all about repetition and doing stuff over and over.  The only thing i wanted to say in this thread was that after hours of game you can start to think about try something else. This has nothing to do with not complaining or having a thought about what could be improved.

I understand your argument and agree. Warframe would be a better game if it would have a challenging endgame loop. But warframe would be a different game without a mindless grind loop.

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

This is an incredibly short sighted line of thinking. Just because someone had a blast in their first thousand hours reaching the late game doesn’t mean there aren’t valid complaints with the late game.

I love Warframe and have had a great time playing it, but DE does struggle to make content for the late game player. Like someone else said in the thread, they’re making this game for new players with fresh wallets. And that’s perfectly fine, DE has to look out for their bottom line, but that doesn’t invalidate the feedback and complaints of long time players.

I have no complaints about well worded, constructive criticism.

This:

You've probably already heard it, but take it easy, there are tons of other games out there, and Warframe just reached the limit of it's lifespan for me, that's about it. If DE someday pops out another similar game, where i can experience the whole journey again before it gets to an ultimately repetitive endgame, i'll gladly give it a try !

is not well worded criticism.

And while we are at it, trying to pull the game down, because you no longer like it, is not well worded criticism either.

Throwing a temper tantrum like a 3 year old is not constructive criticism either.

I can tell you exactly what will happen if DE puts up a challenge: People will complain in masses that this is way too difficult. Heaven forbid there will be a reward attached to the challenge. Then you will see  an uproar of casuals who feel entitled to get the reward as well.

This is the internet, you legit cannot win.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This is my point.

Sure, there's tons and tons and tons of different options builds, and variety in the game. But - and answer me this honestly - when you come across some awesome build that makes a ton of use out of a forgotten weapon, is it better than 'liberally apply nuke', or 'liberally apply CC'? Are the circumstance it's really good in also covered by a meta build that covers the rest of the game too? Or is it just 'nuke everything' by a different name, a one-size fits all build that just so happens to not be the most popular?

Because that's my problem. That's why I say the choices Warframe has are not meaningful. Warframe has clever builds and immense amounts of player customization and depth to it moment-to moment combat, but it doesn't reward them.

I thought about this as I currently look at my builds and I have to disagree with you here. My Umbra, for example, is limitlessly rewarding because my focus on speed and agility, my ability to know when to dive in for stab festivals or back off and "prime" for the next attack, and my overall knowledge of how my setup works all give me that super ninja of destruction feeling only a game like Warframe can offer. My Gara setup is a defending, DR and damage buffer (with roar subsumed) while my Ember prime functions as a pure CC chaos creator (with Gara's 3 subsumed) and Rhino prime as my dive-in nuker.

The reward, for me, isn't simply surviving and nuking but more the answering of the question: Can I actually BE all what the game advertised...and more? That answer is 10000% yes. DE gave me EXACTLY what I wanted while also offering a massive "value added plus" by matching that gameplay effort with lore, risks, depth and continuous progression. If you're on this forum then, no question, this game did it for you too. I think the issue simply goes back to: "Now that I've achieved what I wanted, is their more fun to be had if I continue?". The question is not "what incentive do I have to stay?" because, if you're asking that, then you're no longer playing Warframe as a game but more like clocking in and contemplating quitting a job.

Note: Meant as generalized statements, not targeted. This is a really great discussion with really good points and definitely don't want to throw anyone off!!

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

6 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

I have no complaints about well worded, constructive criticism.

This:

You've probably already heard it, but take it easy, there are tons of other games out there, and Warframe just reached the limit of it's lifespan for me, that's about it. If DE someday pops out another similar game, where i can experience the whole journey again before it gets to an ultimately repetitive endgame, i'll gladly give it a try !

is not well worded criticism.

And while we are at it, trying to pull the game down, because you no longer like it, is not well worded criticism either.

Throwing a temper tantrum like a 3 year old is not constructive criticism either.

I can tell you exactly what will happen if DE puts up a challenge: People will complain in masses that this is way too difficult. Heaven forbid there will be a reward attached to the challenge. Then you will see  an uproar of casuals who feel entitled to get the reward as well.

This is the internet, you legit cannot win.

Fair enough regarding constructive criticism, but I don’t see anything wrong with what OP said. It’s not exactly constructive, that’s true, but I mostly agree that Warframe is an incredible journey with a lackluster endgame.

The OP isn’t a temper tantrum, it’s just one players observation. You could argue that it’s a very unnecessary thread, but considering we’re all just here to discuss Warframe, I’d say it’s a valid thing to post.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

46 minutes ago, DragonFox16 said:

Nah. You are right. The game has flaws. I said it too. And everybody has the right to complain.

The thing you quotet me on was related to grinding and RNG. And i think this was pretty obvious from the beginning of the game or lets say, first 30-50 hours that this game is all about repetition and doing stuff over and over.  The only thing i wanted to say in this thread was that after hours of game you can start to think about try something else. This has nothing to do with not complaining or having a thought about what could be improved.

I understand your argument and agree. Warframe would be a better game if it would have a challenging endgame loop. But warframe would be a different game without a mindless grind loop.

 

I think trying to endlessly create a new, difficulty based challenge in Warframe is futile because the internet won't allow players to take on that challenge without massive amounts of public hand-holding media shoved down their throats. The Eidolons, Ropalalyst and Profit-Taker, for example, were a nightmare to countless players and still are very much avoided by many. What was the big thing for the eidolons fight that was all over youtube: the lanka, the "###" amp build, etc. A HUGE chunk of the player base were getting wrecked until the meta builds provided relief. That is the very definition of a challenging and difficult section of content. Just because people overcame it DOES NOT mean it's still not a challenge or difficult. It just means you now have the methods, patterns and gearing to defeat them. 

All challenges are difficult until they are learned...then they turn into a farm. That's every game I've ever played except, with Warframe, we still have access to every piece of content and everything offers incentive.

[TheGuyver]

20 hours ago, Leqesai said:

For people who are bored you should consider picking up Siralim Ultimate.

I did and it is totally awesome. Put about 120 hours in a few weeks playing this thing. Scratches my "Want to grind grind grind" itch really nicely. 

I have spent far too many hours in the siralim series, I'm like 175+ now in ultimate with 300+ in the rest lol

[Aldain]

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's just not fun to run around getting two-shot because enemies are getting designed around Inaros's health bar. It's not fun having to guess whether or not the sniper can hit you because their accuracy is more based on range than positioning, or good movement. It's not fun to have the lever-action rifle I like using have a several second killtime on one guy (whilst I'm being shot at) whilst your average, boring meta explosive weapon kills everything that shares a postcode with my target in one shot.

Add in that because of the first factor (having to counteract eHP blobs) that taking the time to line up ranged attacks for headshots leaves players open to hitscan bullets unless they decide to use frames that can slow/stop enemies entirely or otherwise they can and will die instantly sans the small window of shield gating.

So unless somebody is one of those few insane lunatics that can somehow headshot consistently with a ranged weapon while bouncing around the room like a caffeine-fueled ping-pong ball you're just better off grabbing an AoE weapon and vaguely shooting in the direction of enemies while flying around like a gnat, or a melee weapon and deleting things in 1-3 swings before they can even shoot.

Long story short, everything in the game is either an exercise in frustration or a cakewalk and the excuse people always say is "It's your fault for using the meta" when the game design does nothing but encourage the nuke-or-be-nuked gameplay.

[Leqesai]

36 minutes ago, TheGuyver said:

I have spent far too many hours in the siralim series, I'm like 175+ now in ultimate with 300+ in the rest lol

Awesome!

I'm up to around 110 in Ultimate and it is so much better than the other games... Having a heck of a time optimizing my team.

Are you focused on optimizing one setup or do you roll new specializations regularly?

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I thought about this as I currently look at my builds and I have to disagree with you here. My Umbra, for example, is limitlessly rewarding because my focus on speed and agility, my ability to know when to dive in for stab festivals or back off and "prime" for the next attack, and my overall knowledge of how my setup works all give me that super ninja of destruction feeling only a game like Warframe can offer. My Gara setup is a defending, DR and damage buffer (with roar subsumed) while my Ember prime functions as a pure CC chaos creator (with Gara's 3 subsumed) and Rhino prime as my dive-in nuker.

Excal has an 'AI off' button that increases his damage by 7X or so before critical hit multipliers and can regenerate health whilst dealing damage. Is there ever a time when diving in for stab festivals isn't a good option?

Is Gara ever threatened when she can make a complete CC safe zone and has 90% DR for few seconds it takes to re-assemble said safe zone.

Does your Ember Prime ever need to consider when not to cause CC, because you might need it later?

And does your Rhino with a literal invincibility button and a 'turn off AI' button ever need to stop diving in?

 

That's the last part of my point 'nuke everything by any other name'. When I look at an action game like Warframe, what I want to get out of it is an experience that can make me think, and truly make me use my tools, where my mastery is rewarded, even just a little. And what kills me is that Warframe used to do that. I'm not any better, or at least I don't feel like I am. I just got to the point where I got the 'win buttons' and need to actively decide not to use them in content where the game is constantly assuming that I am. Whenever I try to implement the skills I learn, the game either doesn't adequately let or actively punishes me for it. For the former, I've already discussed how neither enemies or environments are suited to movement-focused gameplay a lot of the time. For the latter, the best example is probably defence. I like to play Limbo in a more aggressive way, with a low duration and high strength build, with no stasis and supplemented with some survivability and a subsumed for a high-mobility, high-damage playstyle (which is what you outright need to survive when you're a squishy).

When playing defence for any reason (which I avoid at all costs, but sometimes needs must), I am extremely encouraged to exclusively use high range, high duration Stasis by virtue of the fact that my preferred playstyle can fail - Stasis Limbo basically can't unless literally the entire map is covered in Nullifiers. And even then, if necessary I could always switch to Low Range, High Duration, which is basically the same thing. And frankly speaking, this is true in almost every other setting. Stasis Limbo is hardly the fastest way to beat any given mission, but stasising everything before ever encountering it means there's basically no chance of failure. In other words, playing the way I like, no matter how much I improve my own personal skills, is objectively worse than playing in a way I hate because it has the exact same reward for exponentially less risk.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

To that, some users countered with the usual "Then just remove some mods and limit your power level". By the same token, why not just play using your feet while you hang down from a rope if you must handicap yourself because the devs didn't design around the power levels and tools that they themselves give you?

Dat me! Although nowadays I’m also advocating for “Replace mods with others”. Removing mods mainly works at the starchart-level if the available alternatives to survival/killing mods are few.

 🤔 Come to think of it, I always advocated for replacing if possible

Out of curiosity, can you share your favourite, most powerful, content trivialising build? Getting some insight into how someone in the higher-ups builds would further my knowledge 👍 

[DragonFox16]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think trying to endlessly create a new, difficulty based challenge in Warframe is futile because the internet won't allow players to take on that challenge without massive amounts of public hand-holding media shoved down their throats. The Eidolons, Ropalalyst and Profit-Taker, for example, were a nightmare to countless players and still are very much avoided by many. What was the big thing for the eidolons fight that was all over youtube: the lanka, the "###" amp build, etc. A HUGE chunk of the player base were getting wrecked until the meta builds provided relief. That is the very definition of a challenging and difficult section of content. Just because people overcame it DOES NOT mean it's still not a challenge or difficult. It just means you now have the methods, patterns and gearing to defeat them. 

All challenges are difficult until they are learned...then they turn into a farm. That's every game I've ever played except, with Warframe, we still have access to every piece of content and everything offers incentive.

Hm... I don't know. I would say it is possible to make a difficulty based challenge although the internet exists. World of Warcraft has done a good job of that in the form of M+ dungeons. Scaled dungeons with rotating special properties to make them more varied. The enemies scale higher and higher depending on the level. The standard should be that you manage M+10. For M+15 there is the highest Achievment. The world class, when I was active, managed M+25 or higher. The difficulty is purely individual and each player can choose exactly the level he thinks he can manage.  The game mode was highly rewarding and satisfying.
The skills, the routes, the classes, the buffs and the setup: Everything you need in the game is known through guides. But in the game, theoretical knowledge is of no use and not many players reach the high ranks. The result is a very normal distribution of players among the difficulty levels. What I liked most about it was that everyone plays the same dungeon and there was no extra content for the pros.

The system certainly had its weaknesses. But apart from an Elo system in a multiplayer game, which of course is not applicable to Warframe, I have never experienced a better system in which you could push your ambition with growing skill until you reach your limit. And not because of your character or the equipment, but because as a player you can't do better with your skill.

Introducing something like that into Warfame is obscure because Warframe offers a crude power fantasy. Bombing through a mass of enemies always reminds me a bit of the Dynasty Warrior games. There is almost no such thing as a skill check. (Except Spy on Lua. Even when the information and solution for that is online. :-P )
Most of the time it is an gear or configuration check and content gets trivialized with the correct gear. Except extrem high endurance runs of course. But they are very niche. But then again, this is what i like about the game. :-P I am not very demanding when i start warframe. I don't expect a soulslike gameplay. Not even close.

[Aldain]

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Excal has an 'AI off' button that increases his damage by 7X or so before critical hit multipliers and can regenerate health whilst dealing damage. Is there ever a time when diving in for stab festivals isn't a good option?

As an Excalibur main I can say there is exactly one situation when going stab-happy isn't a good option.

...The Wolf of Saturn Six, otherwise even my unga-bunga caveman-build Pennant can erase anything that doesn't have a damage gate in a few seconds.

The sad thing is that Radial Blind/Howl is still on the lower end of CC quality compared to the myriad options that CC things even harder.