For veterans bored of game like i am

[CrimsonXX]

On 2021-05-24 at 8:19 PM, Voltage said:

I mean, DE has created a gameplay loop that requires updating the game every 2 weeks or so to keep people interested aside from the obscene login reward requirements for the Login Tribute system. If DE could just work on more depth in the systems they add, there would be no issue with waiting weeks or months for large updates because there are deep and rich systems to dive into while you wait.

I honestly feel it's a real shame that instead of criticizing the lack depth of Warframe, players just toss the "play something else" as if it somehow excuses how shallow updates have become. Warframe is vast, but it really isn't that deep per system.

I would like to see Focus, Riven Mods, the Operator, Arcanes, Open Worlds, and consumables (Forma types, Exilus types, etc.) reach depths that create some real good gear progression for player inventories. Plains of Eidolon was on great track for this, but unfortunately Fortuna + the Plains Remaster watered this down. I'm not sure if that is due to this playerbase liking shallow, easy, and quick access to power or if DE is purposefully designing this game around being shallow to appeal to newer and less invested players.

2 things:

1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling someone to play something else, especially in this case where there's obsessive types that will spend hours upon hours ingame doing whatever, then act like that should be the norm and anyone not in that mode clearly is being failed by Warframe. I play like 2 other online games alongside WF putting in maybe a couple of hours or  3 if particularly going for something; then a long backlog of games to squeeze in whatever time is left. There's nothing wrong with someone playing something else and that as a concept/mentality really needs to be broken.

2) You want those things, X has their list of things, Y has their list of things; Z has their list of things; etc. If anything that's the flaw in the system, DE trying to figure out how to satisfy everyone. On top of that the power-creep of doing anything with any of the mentioned that affects combat ability. Especially in regards to the Operators where unless its changed the sentiment from the devs has always been to not have them overshadow the frames.

3) Not every update needs to be a full game worth of content and that was never the case in Warframe, speaking as someone that's been here for years. I for one am actually a fan of updates like The Deadlock Protocol or even Call of the Tempestarii that offer new bits of lore, while also revamping tilesets & game modes.

[DragonFox16]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

 

Spies on Lua doesn't require skills if you have good gear (e.g. Ivara).

Endurance runs are made trivial as well.

 

The point in the bracket was a joke.And i said that gear and configuration, which is open information, trivalizes content.

So yeah. You repeated my points and i agree with you. :-P

 

16 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think your WoW example fits here. Steel Path enemies are already insane for many players but tossing scaling enemies in high endurance runs is a major challenge few can handle. Gear checks, best configurations AND skill are very much needed. Since very few take on that challenge, even when they have the gear, wouldn't it be safe to say that the limitation of difficulty isn't the issue but the overall limits of the player base is? If true then why make hard even harder (while also trying to figure out rewarding) when most can't even handle the current?  What would be the point?

There is no point. Except maybe the point that is is nice to delivery a challenge to the broad playerbase so everybody can be happy with the content and grow individually to higher levels. People who can't kill eidolons want a way to learn killing eidolons. People who kill level 9999 enemies want a way to get even more challenging enemies.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, the difficulty that comes just from scalling is a boring one. Especially the implementation in Warframe. There is no "reward" for sitting in a steel path endurance for missions. There is no league, no ranking, no achievments, no titel, no special loot, and nothing like randomized properties like in nightmare missions that could bring more diversity. Nothing, that makes you think "Yeah. Lets dive into this topic and have a hard time!". On the contrary, the idea of spending hours on a mission sounds rather boring.
Furthermore, just the fact that I have to wait until the opponents are scaled up is annoying. How long does it take until I have enemies with level 9999 to see if my build is working and my skills are enough? I want the challenge when I log in. I don't want to wait for hours in a boring mission that maybe becomes challenging after hours.
It is true that the endurance runs are to some degree skill based and not everybody can do them. However, there are enough builds that make runs with level 9999 enemies "easier". Maybe not trivial but much more easier then it should be if you think that this is the most hardest content in the game.
And on the other hand i agree with you. I will not forget that i have the perspective of a veteran with the possibility to come up with nearly every build that is created from the community and declared as meta. For most of the players the eidolons, steel path or even a kuva survival that goes close to an hour is challenging.

Just to make it sure. I just discuss that without the need for it. I am very happy with Warframe because i am not looking for a skill challenge. Most of the times i play stupid and chill and sometimes i try to optimize grind to reduce needed time because this is also fun for me. It depends. For both demands, long endurance runs do not make sense for me and i normally don't do them.
I said that before. 80% of the time i have to grind against enemies below level 100. Open Worlds, opening/farming Relics, Murmur, most of the Sortie, railjack... Everything is below level 100 and a lot or even all of the frames, weapons or builds work there while coming not even close to beeing meta. I enjoy to play stupid and fun builds because the content does not demand more. And if it works and it is fun it is not stupid.

[TheArmchairThinker]

18 minutes ago, DragonFox16 said:

There is no "reward" for sitting in a steel path endurance for missions. There is no league, no ranking, no achievments, no titel, no special loot,

And what do these things try to achieve? As far as I know, any kind for competition like this usually end up with toxic players that berate others that not being as good (cheeser or whatever you want to call them), players that don't want to teach things but want people who know everything even on day one release and nobody knows how to do it in their team or worse, those who do anything from doing DDoS to cheat and exploit just to sit on the top. I find that to be quite problematic and it was quite apparent during solar rail conflict

22 minutes ago, DragonFox16 said:

How long does it take until I have enemies with level 9999 to see if my build is working and my skills are enough?

Is our gameplay supposed to be at that level though? People want that challenge and endgame but when you take down level 9999 enemies like nothing, what is challenge? At this point I'm just sharpening the nerf hammer until it turns into nerf axe that would kill things to ground instead of bringing things to be in line with others

[DragonFox16]

12 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And what do these things try to achieve? As far as I know, any kind for competition like this usually end up with toxic players that berate others that not being as good (cheeser or whatever you want to call them), players that don't want to teach things but want people who know everything even on day one release and nobody knows how to do it in their team or worse, those who do anything from doing DDoS to cheat and exploit just to sit on the top. I find that to be quite problematic and it was quite apparent during solar rail conflict

Yes. True. Please read my complete post. I do not demand that and i made more examples then just competition: "no special loot, and nothing like randomized properties like in nightmare missions that could bring more diversity." I agree that competition has negativ side effects. Whereas I think with content like the timedruns in Diablo 3, the potential for toxicity is very low compared to PvP content. But that's another topic. 
It is just my opinion that doing endurance missions has no huge appeal. However, that doesn't mean I want to take it away from players who find their fun in it. I can just understand why it's not considered a great endgame by many.

Quote

Is our gameplay supposed to be at that level though? People want that challenge and endgame but when you take down level 9999 enemies like nothing, what is challenge? At this point I'm just sharpening the nerf hammer until it turns into nerf axe that would kill things to ground instead of bringing things to be in line with others

Differnt topic. But sure, the balance of the game is something to talk about. Even if builds were nerved and the best build (there will always be one) only manages level 5555, the content is still not a great endgame.

[TheArmchairThinker]

47 minutes ago, DragonFox16 said:

the content is still not a great endgame.

So what is "great endgame" then?

[DragonFox16]

18 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

So what is "great endgame" then?

I gave an example above and i said what could be considered missing.

I argued with Son-17, but not from my perspective. For me, endgame in warframe is grinding. Unspectacular but I am frugal and i like it for what it is.

[Loza03]

18 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Very true and experience taught you that while your overall collection of your arsenal gave you the ability to make the best decision, whether you're a fan of it or not. Don't cut yourself short: you're a significantly better player than you were years ago and you're "richer" in in-game assets. End game bliss in any game simply means you know darn well you could take the worst load-out for the job, the best load-out for the job or the most entertaining load-out for the job. Your younger, less experienced, less equipped self, had no clue if you had the right mods or enough capacity to even test a high range, high duration Stasis. 

I guess my points, when having discussions with fellow vets, always lead back to this: Our years of experience playing a single game that was built to be a power fantasy is just too high to justify our arguments. I dreamed of this type of game, got it, play and played the absolute HELL out of it for over half a decade and cannot fathom having that much experience but still getting destroyed by anything currently in the game that I've had the chance to conquer over time. The eidolons were difficult and challenging for a while when they were released but, now that I've had tons of bonding time and amp/load-out gains, I shouldn't expect a hard battle anymore. The fun, however, is ALWAYS there and that is where I think we can circle back to your examples and my original load-out examples playing their parts.

My issue isn't to do with the difficulty. I cited Monster Hunter earlier, and specifically Rise. I'm closing in on 100 hours on Rise specifically, and combined with the other MH games I've played (4U, Generations including Ultimate and World but not Iceborne), I think I'm probably around at least  700-odd hours, I think? Maybe around thousand. It's harder to track. It's not the same as my playtime on Warframe, sure, WF has eaten even more, but the fact of the matter is that my playtime in those games is still pretty firmly in the 'years of experience' bracket, and Rise is the easiest game in the franchise by a wide margin at the moment. Especially for someone in my position, and I'm hardly a member of Team Darkside. The final boss was a one-round go, I did cart but that's also because I wasn't exactly taking the fight seriously.

Despite being an easy, casual MH game I have long since mastered, Rise still find ways to challenge, surprise and constantly engage me. It can do this because these games are balanced. Your decisions matter, and are all valued. Different Monsters and Weapons are different experiences, you are rewarded for paying attention in combat and caring about your build. Your build matters, absolutely, but it doesn't soley define your experience, meaning that there is value to be had in both the RPG and action elements alike. Mastery means you have access to the most depth the game can offer, and you reap the benefits of that fact in terms of fun and engagement. There isn't really a 'best' loadout in MH - sure there's a numerically highest DPS out there, but usually the amount of mechanical mastery required to pull it off and absence of utility counterbalances that fact. 

I can't in good faith say the same for Warframe. Especially since, something I neglected to mention is that I figured out Stasis was one of the best ways to play Limbo almost immediately and could do so based on very low-rated modding. There was still some learning to do and refinement of the build, for sure, but nevertheless, something I figured out and could do before I finished the starchart is still a powerhouse play in the Steel Path, nearly four years later.

 

Sure, MH has the opportunity of sequels, but come on: Warframe used to look like and play like THIS: 

Spoiler

 

And the reason why MH sequels are so useful is that they give the devs a natural opportunity to do what I'm asking for - a stat squish. A chance to wrangle the game's rampant power creep and imbalances, bring up some unusually weak stuff, and down some unusually strong stuff and maybe rework some old mechanics that are getting rusty. I understand that, for Warframe especially, such a thing would be a lot more painful, but I would argue it's becoming more and more necessary.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

17 hours ago, NeoBahamut19 said:

Gotta be the dumbest statement I've heard as a Master Founder.

Maybe I'm just not happy with the direction the developers took it in and as someone who is returning after all the rep grinds were implemented; and can see how the game can potentially drive away new players due to the ever increasing amounts of grinds for reputations and currencies.

When you defend this crap, you bolster DEs dedication to said crap.

Also, you clearly miss my point, it's not about one grind, it's about all the grinds combined. You want a new friend to come play? Yeah, okay, now they have to grind for gear to be able to get through the story, then they have to grind for materials to craft recipes required for this that and the other mechanics, then they have to wait on timers, then they have to grind rep, all so they can join you in various things. I've already unlocked quite a bit, but other friends of mine who are just starting up are now having to put up with this garbage wall of grind.

Shame on me as someone who started playing in 2012 to share my thoughts on the direction the game has taken over the course of nearly a decade.

PS: Many of us have better things to do than troll through forums.

You call my statement dumb and then proceed to prove my point. I was a new player about a year ago and my first 500 hours in Warframe was the most fun I’ve had in a video game in ages. So if your new friends aren’t enjoying it....shocker, it’s probably not the game for them. The late game is where the game’s biggest problems really show themselves, IMO.

To address the rest of your post - yes, Warframe is super grindy. It’s also free, and you have the option to spend money to lessen that grind. That’s like F2P 101.

But the thing is, most people who enjoy this game enjoy it for the mechanics and the core combat loop. It just feels good to play, which makes the grinding feel less tedious. I don’t mind doing the same thing over and over again when I’m having fun doing it. I also find grinding to be relaxing. That’s also just my subjective opinion and I know others will find the grind to be overbearing. That’s why I say this game isn’t for everyone.

There are plenty of things wrong with Warframe, I just don’t think the grind is one of them. It has ALWAYS been a game about grinding, so if you don’t enjoy that aspect of it, I will reiterate that this probably isn’t the game for you.

Edit: Just felt like I should clarify that yes, SOME grinds in this game are ridiculous (like the Hema), but as a whole, on average, it’s not bad at all, especially if you pace yourself and don’t try to get everything all at once. Your first example was the Helminth, which is a very easy grind to unlock.

 

[RazerXPrime]

21 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

My issue isn't to do with the difficulty. I cited Monster Hunter earlier, and specifically Rise. I'm closing in on 100 hours on Rise specifically, and combined with the other MH games I've played (4U, Generations including Ultimate and World but not Iceborne), I think I'm probably around at least  700-odd hours, I think? Maybe around thousand. It's harder to track. It's not the same as my playtime on Warframe, sure, WF has eaten even more, but the fact of the matter is that my playtime in those games is still pretty firmly in the 'years of experience' bracket, and Rise is the easiest game in the franchise by a wide margin at the moment. Especially for someone in my position, and I'm hardly a member of Team Darkside. The final boss was a one-round go, I did cart but that's also because I wasn't exactly taking the fight seriously.

Despite being an easy, casual MH game I have long since mastered, Rise still find ways to challenge, surprise and constantly engage me. It can do this because these games are balanced. Your decisions matter, and are all valued. Different Monsters and Weapons are different experiences, you are rewarded for paying attention in combat and caring about your build. Your build matters, absolutely, but it doesn't soley define your experience, meaning that there is value to be had in both the RPG and action elements alike. Mastery means you have access to the most depth the game can offer, and you reap the benefits of that fact in terms of fun and engagement. There isn't really a 'best' loadout in MH - sure there's a numerically highest DPS out there, but usually the amount of mechanical mastery required to pull it off and absence of utility counterbalances that fact. 

I can't in good faith say the same for Warframe. Especially since, something I neglected to mention is that I figured out Stasis was one of the best ways to play Limbo almost immediately and could do so based on very low-rated modding. There was still some learning to do and refinement of the build, for sure, but nevertheless, something I figured out and could do before I finished the starchart is still a powerhouse play in the Steel Path, nearly four years later.

 

Sure, MH has the opportunity of sequels, but come on: Warframe used to look like and play like THIS: 

  Hide contents

 

And the reason why MH sequels are so useful is that they give the devs a natural opportunity to do what I'm asking for - a stat squish. A chance to wrangle the game's rampant power creep and imbalances, bring up some unusually weak stuff, and down some unusually strong stuff and maybe rework some old mechanics that are getting rusty. I understand that, for Warframe especially, such a thing would be a lot more painful, but I would argue it's becoming more and more necessary.

Don't know if it's fair to compare Monster Hunter and Warframe. They are not even close to being a similar game. I like the old WF vid you posted. It reminded me of how I played when I just started playing. In the end though right now Warframe is a game where people want to kill waves of mindless enemies as quickly as possible. Everything that sits in the way of killing an enemy 1 second faster creates hate posts here on the forums.

Most people don't want skill or abilities. They don't want to abuse weak points or devise strategies. Most people want to sit in a corner and blow up a wave of enemies with 1 hit.

Do I agree with that approach? Hell no! Warframe should introduce smarter combat. Introduce new ways to fight enemies. Have weaknesses and vulnerabilities matter. Should it be like MH or some such? No, but there are other ways to deal with enemies. Question is, how is that going to apply to the current fast paced gameplay. It will affect it of course. I can already hear the cries of "omg my viral/hunter mumu build no longer works weehhhh!!". Which I would consider to be a good thing.

Imagine this: bringing a corrosive or viral weapon to a Corpus mission and having this damage completely nullified. Or bringing toxin/magnetic damage to grineer and doing 0 damage. The games damage type system doesn't work in its favor because the bonusses and malus are so minute. You overpower almost everything with the same exact build. This is what is wrong with Warframe.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

28 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Don't know if it's fair to compare Monster Hunter and Warframe. They are not even close to being a similar game. I like the old WF vid you posted. It reminded me of how I played when I just started playing. In the end though right now Warframe is a game where people want to kill waves of mindless enemies as quickly as possible. Everything that sits in the way of killing an enemy 1 second faster creates hate posts here on the forums.

Most people don't want skill or abilities. They don't want to abuse weak points or devise strategies. Most people want to sit in a corner and blow up a wave of enemies with 1 hit.

Do I agree with that approach? Hell no! Warframe should introduce smarter combat. Introduce new ways to fight enemies. Have weaknesses and vulnerabilities matter. Should it be like MH or some such? No, but there are other ways to deal with enemies. Question is, how is that going to apply to the current fast paced gameplay. It will affect it of course. I can already hear the cries of "omg my viral/hunter mumu build no longer works weehhhh!!". Which I would consider to be a good thing.

Imagine this: bringing a corrosive or viral weapon to a Corpus mission and having this damage completely nullified. Or bringing toxin/magnetic damage to grineer and doing 0 damage. The games damage type system doesn't work in its favor because the bonusses and malus are so minute. You overpower almost everything with the same exact build. This is what is wrong with Warframe.

Seeing as Condition overload isn't the only mod that takes the number of status' on the enemy into account, that's not a really good idea. People can use whatever elements they want, and you shouldn't assume everyone is even using viral heat 100% of the time.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Don't know if it's fair to compare Monster Hunter and Warframe. They are not even close to being a similar game.

On one level, sure. Factors like enemy and player character design are markedly different. But in others?

Well, they're both action RPG's designed to be played by 1-4 players wherein you spawn into a mission with a single objective, occasionally with secondary objectives and is completed entirely entirely via action gameplay, and are rewarded with materials. These materials can be traded in for items which provide statistical improvements to the player, and the player is offered a large amount of inventory space and multiple loadouts. Some of these improvements are direct upgrades to core stats such as amount of health, defence and damage dealt, others reduce the effects of or negate negative status ailments, and others provide utility bonuses or temporary buff upon achieving the right conditions during action gameplay. The player also has access to the ability to deal negative status ailments if they have access to the right equipment, and a set of limited gear which confers benefits such as the replenishment of resources expended, or other benefits such as causing an effect the player's core equipment or abilities are unable to do.

 

In other words, Monster Hunter's action aspects are absolutely incomparable with Warframes (or mostly. Rise and the Wirebug blur things a tad), but those aren't the only components to either experience. The RPG aspects are absolutely comparable, as are how the action and RPG elements interplay to some extent. It's the same way that one could reasonably compare Halo and Warframe, despite all of Warframe's RPG elements making it nowhere close to the same kind of game Halo is. So long as you're making those comparisons whilst being cognizant of things like that, then that opens up the discussion.

23 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

I like the old WF vid you posted. It reminded me of how I played when I just started playing. In the end though right now Warframe is a game where people want to kill waves of mindless enemies as quickly as possible. Everything that sits in the way of killing an enemy 1 second faster creates hate posts here on the forums.

Most people don't want skill or abilities. They don't want to abuse weak points or devise strategies. Most people want to sit in a corner and blow up a wave of enemies with 1 hit.

Do I agree with that approach? Hell no! Warframe should introduce smarter combat. Introduce new ways to fight enemies. Have weaknesses and vulnerabilities matter. Should it be like MH or some such? No, but there are other ways to deal with enemies. Question is, how is that going to apply to the current fast paced gameplay. It will affect it of course. I can already hear the cries of "omg my viral/hunter mumu build no longer works weehhhh!!". Which I would consider to be a good thing.

I think I'd err on the side of agreeing with you, and I think that the best we can hope for is a compromise of some such. For example, redefining how we think of encounters might still allow for the fast-paced group shredding to co exist. For example, using the environment or enemies that can buff others (and aren't a pain in the butt to hit or fight) would mean that there's 'weak points' to an entire group of enemies. In such a circumstance, the individual enemies don't necessarily matter, as they're not important - what's important is the collective squad. In DOOM Eternal, you shoot of parts of a Demon to remove their abilities or break their guard, but in Warframe, you'd shoot out an individual enemy to open the rest up to an AoE rampage. 

That'd probably require some AI shenanigans and would still take plenty of nerfs and so forth, but stuff like that I think could serve as an effective compromise between players who want smarter combat and players who want to blow up huge waves.

30 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Imagine this: bringing a corrosive or viral weapon to a Corpus mission and having this damage completely nullified. Or bringing toxin/magnetic damage to grineer and doing 0 damage. The games damage type system doesn't work in its favor because the bonusses and malus are so minute. You overpower almost everything with the same exact build. This is what is wrong with Warframe.

Honestly, part of me wonders if it'd be worth reworking how damage functions entirely and maybe even trimming out or heavily de-emphasising damage types. Most action games and even RPG's I'm familiar with that feature tons of damage types make most of them functionally identical except for X case scenario.

[RazerXPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Seeing as Condition overload isn't the only mod that takes the number of status' on the enemy into account, that's not a really good idea. People can use whatever elements they want, and you shouldn't assume everyone is even using viral heat 100% of the time.

Are you quoting the right person? I said nothing related to what you're saying.

[RazerXPrime]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

On one level, sure. Factors like enemy and player character design are markedly different. But in others?

Well, they're both action RPG's designed to be played by 1-4 players wherein you spawn into a mission with a single objective, occasionally with secondary objectives and is completed entirely entirely via action gameplay, and are rewarded with materials. These materials can be traded in for items which provide statistical improvements to the player, and the player is offered a large amount of inventory space and multiple loadouts. Some of these improvements are direct upgrades to core stats such as amount of health, defence and damage dealt, others reduce the effects of or negate negative status ailments, and others provide utility bonuses or temporary buff upon achieving the right conditions during action gameplay. The player also has access to the ability to deal negative status ailments if they have access to the right equipment, and a set of limited gear which confers benefits such as the replenishment of resources expended, or other benefits such as causing an effect the player's core equipment or abilities are unable to do.

 

In other words, Monster Hunter's action aspects are absolutely incomparable with Warframes (or mostly. Rise and the Wirebug blur things a tad), but those aren't the only components to either experience. The RPG aspects are absolutely comparable, as are how the action and RPG elements interplay to some extent. It's the same way that one could reasonably compare Halo and Warframe, despite all of Warframe's RPG elements making it nowhere close to the same kind of game Halo is. So long as you're making those comparisons whilst being cognizant of things like that, then that opens up the discussion.

I think I'd err on the side of agreeing with you, and I think that the best we can hope for is a compromise of some such. For example, redefining how we think of encounters might still allow for the fast-paced group shredding to co exist. For example, using the environment or enemies that can buff others (and aren't a pain in the butt to hit or fight) would mean that there's 'weak points' to an entire group of enemies. In such a circumstance, the individual enemies don't necessarily matter, as they're not important - what's important is the collective squad. In DOOM Eternal, you shoot of parts of a Demon to remove their abilities or break their guard, but in Warframe, you'd shoot out an individual enemy to open the rest up to an AoE rampage. 

That'd probably require some AI shenanigans and would still take plenty of nerfs and so forth, but stuff like that I think could serve as an effective compromise between players who want smarter combat and players who want to blow up huge waves.

Honestly, part of me wonders if it'd be worth reworking how damage functions entirely and maybe even trimming out or heavily de-emphasising damage types. Most action games and even RPG's I'm familiar with that feature tons of damage types make most of them functionally identical except for X case scenario.

I was refering to the gameplay comparison between the two games yea. Although I'm hard pressed to call WF a role playing experience though.

The issue with overwhelming damage is that it becomes irrelevant to what you're using. The only thing WF has got is creating bullet spunges where you're thinking ok, maybe I should taylor my setup.

If you look at a lvl 100 Sortie with elemental resistances, you don't really want to bring an elemental weapon. I kind of like that idea and I think it should be implemented everywhere. Of course game time and rewards should possibly be adjusted to match the change in game play.

I rather have corrosive and slash damage do 0 damage to shields so it forces me to think about what I bring to a mission. I rather have to exploit enemy weaknesses so I aiming actually matters.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Sure, MH has the opportunity of sequels, but come on: Warframe used to look like and play like THIS: 

  Hide contents

 

 

Nice look into Warframe history. I’m not sure I got what this video was supposed to represent though, could you clarify? I read the rest of the post, but this one didn’t click for some reason

edit: Oh wait, I hadn’t read too much further before posting this question, and it looks like it’s being referenced. I’ll read those posts first 👍 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Nice look into Warframe history. I’m not sure I got what this video was supposed to represent though, could you clarify? I read the rest of the post, but this one didn’t click for some reason

Basically that the amount of change Warframe has gone through is as much if not more than entire sequel's worth without needing one before.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Basically that the amount of change Warframe has gone through is as much if not more than entire sequel's worth without needing one before.

Ah. It looks a little like my current fights 😋 I like fights like that; a little slower, a little more tactical

edit: Though the current fights are a lot more slick-feeling

[DragonFox16]

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Basically that the amount of change Warframe has gone through is as much if not more than entire sequel's worth without needing one before.

The day when warframe will be replaced with warframe 2 will be realy dramatic. All the hours, the accomplishments and the money that went into it. I'm not sure that after so long, as a developer, you can justify starting over now.
Like MH, bring a sequel while the old game is riding itself to death. Sure. But that would also be hard on loyal players, because a second game means less effort in the old game at the same time. I'm not sure if there are any loud voices about this at MH....

It's a very complex and interesting topic from the view as developer. Some games are designed to run forever (until they stop being played or go out of business). Warframe is one of them in my opinion. Still, from a player's point of view, I think a fresh reboot of Warframe is an exciting thing in which a developer can apply a lot of learned and consciously avoid mistakes they know from experience. I would still cry after my account. :-P

[SneakyErvin]

I would be more concerned if the "I quit" threads came from people that didnt consider themselves veterans. If you've been with a game long enough to feel as a veteran then the game must have provided you with quite extensive joy, unless you love to torture yourself as a hobby.

I think there are only 2 other games that I've spent as much time in as I have in Warframe. And 2 others that I've spent the same hours/year in. The two games clocking in at total Warframe hours is Marvel Heroes and WoW, well WoW probably has more since I played it for 7-8 years. Then the 2 others with hours/year that I played them was DaoC and SWG, though those two games never lasted the same amount of years, since they kinda replaced eachother and then got replaced by WoW.

Granted though, WF could really use some more veteran centered content.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, DragonFox16 said:

There is no point. Except maybe the point that is is nice to delivery a challenge to the broad playerbase so everybody can be happy with the content and grow individually to higher levels. People who can't kill eidolons want a way to learn killing eidolons. People who kill level 9999 enemies want a way to get even more challenging enemies.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, the difficulty that comes just from scalling is a boring one. Especially the implementation in Warframe. There is no "reward" for sitting in a steel path endurance for missions. There is no league, no ranking, no achievments, no titel, no special loot, and nothing like randomized properties like in nightmare missions that could bring more diversity. Nothing, that makes you think "Yeah. Lets dive into this topic and have a hard time!". On the contrary, the idea of spending hours on a mission sounds rather boring.
Furthermore, just the fact that I have to wait until the opponents are scaled up is annoying. How long does it take until I have enemies with level 9999 to see if my build is working and my skills are enough? I want the challenge when I log in. I don't want to wait for hours in a boring mission that maybe becomes challenging after hours.
It is true that the endurance runs are to some degree skill based and not everybody can do them. However, there are enough builds that make runs with level 9999 enemies "easier". Maybe not trivial but much more easier then it should be if you think that this is the most hardest content in the game.
And on the other hand i agree with you. I will not forget that i have the perspective of a veteran with the possibility to come up with nearly every build that is created from the community and declared as meta. For most of the players the eidolons, steel path or even a kuva survival that goes close to an hour is challenging.

Just to make it sure. I just discuss that without the need for it. I am very happy with Warframe because i am not looking for a skill challenge. Most of the times i play stupid and chill and sometimes i try to optimize grind to reduce needed time because this is also fun for me. It depends. For both demands, long endurance runs do not make sense for me and i normally don't do them.
I said that before. 80% of the time i have to grind against enemies below level 100. Open Worlds, opening/farming Relics, Murmur, most of the Sortie, railjack... Everything is below level 100 and a lot or even all of the frames, weapons or builds work there while coming not even close to beeing meta. I enjoy to play stupid and fun builds because the content does not demand more. And if it works and it is fun it is not stupid.

100% agree. Several vets have had deep dives into what difficult and challenging content could be in Warframe, me included, and I do think Steel Path was an eye opening attempt that produced good results and data. While not enough for some and too much for others, SP ultimately proved that the ability is there but the available, long term dev investment is currently not. Further indulging into it would take away from the mainline development of the game.

That said, I fully believe DE has a LOT of actual endgame (true end of game) concepts and content waiting in the pipeline. At that point, DE would be able to "flip" the resource allocation, dedicating more to endgame and significantly less to mainline. The model is perfect because DE doesn't need to cater to vets. We'll always be either here and hungry, away and hungry or FOMO and hungry.  

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

My issue isn't to do with the difficulty. I cited Monster Hunter earlier, and specifically Rise. I'm closing in on 100 hours on Rise specifically, and combined with the other MH games I've played (4U, Generations including Ultimate and World but not Iceborne), I think I'm probably around at least  700-odd hours, I think? Maybe around thousand. It's harder to track. It's not the same as my playtime on Warframe, sure, WF has eaten even more, but the fact of the matter is that my playtime in those games is still pretty firmly in the 'years of experience' bracket, and Rise is the easiest game in the franchise by a wide margin at the moment. Especially for someone in my position, and I'm hardly a member of Team Darkside. The final boss was a one-round go, I did cart but that's also because I wasn't exactly taking the fight seriously.

Despite being an easy, casual MH game I have long since mastered, Rise still find ways to challenge, surprise and constantly engage me. It can do this because these games are balanced. Your decisions matter, and are all valued. Different Monsters and Weapons are different experiences, you are rewarded for paying attention in combat and caring about your build. Your build matters, absolutely, but it doesn't soley define your experience, meaning that there is value to be had in both the RPG and action elements alike. Mastery means you have access to the most depth the game can offer, and you reap the benefits of that fact in terms of fun and engagement. There isn't really a 'best' loadout in MH - sure there's a numerically highest DPS out there, but usually the amount of mechanical mastery required to pull it off and absence of utility counterbalances that fact. 

I can't in good faith say the same for Warframe. Especially since, something I neglected to mention is that I figured out Stasis was one of the best ways to play Limbo almost immediately and could do so based on very low-rated modding. There was still some learning to do and refinement of the build, for sure, but nevertheless, something I figured out and could do before I finished the starchart is still a powerhouse play in the Steel Path, nearly four years later.

 

Sure, MH has the opportunity of sequels, but come on: Warframe used to look like and play like THIS: 

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And the reason why MH sequels are so useful is that they give the devs a natural opportunity to do what I'm asking for - a stat squish. A chance to wrangle the game's rampant power creep and imbalances, bring up some unusually weak stuff, and down some unusually strong stuff and maybe rework some old mechanics that are getting rusty. I understand that, for Warframe especially, such a thing would be a lot more painful, but I would argue it's becoming more and more necessary.

Sequels always make arguments difficult when comparing Warframe, as you stated. Gear and stat resets, shorter expected playtimes per game, a more singular focused style of gameplay and a chance to run a complete do-over with new generations of coding to play with are all unfair enough. Now include the huge differences in dev-to-player base engagement as well as a very wide net of player types and the challenge becomes overbearing. Our community is as dynamic and scrambled as it can get. I can only imagine an actual Warframe 2, with complete gear resets, stat wipes, more balanced gameplay and enough content that could equal the work from Fortuna to now. While some of us would celebrate, others would go absolutely NUCLEAR with rants about having their "invested gear" gone.

I do understand what you mean regarding Limbo but I think DE's model with Warframe was geared towards the great experiment of experience. Sure, an invested Limbo trivializes guarding content but you're not bound to him. Would Grendell and Ash fans say the same? Warframe can be as exciting or as boring as desired, especially as a vet. For me, as a player that loves exploring, taking my time and trying different setups, Warframe is absolutely endlessly fun. That very well may change in another 1-10 years but, so far for me, this is easily the greatest game ever made.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Seeing as Condition overload isn't the only mod that takes the number of status' on the enemy into account, that's not a really good idea. People can use whatever elements they want, and you shouldn't assume everyone is even using viral heat 100% of the time.

I'm curious to see what would happen if condition overload, weeping wounds, blood rush and Magus lockdown were removed. I'd also love to see viral max at +200% damage increase and slash changed into what viral once was: a temporary HP reducer with max at 50% HP reduction.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

7 hours ago, DragonFox16 said:

The day when warframe will be replaced with warframe 2 will be realy dramatic. All the hours, the accomplishments and the money that went into it. I'm not sure that after so long, as a developer, you can justify starting over now.
Like MH, bring a sequel while the old game is riding itself to death. Sure. But that would also be hard on loyal players, because a second game means less effort in the old game at the same time. I'm not sure if there are any loud voices about this at MH....

It's a very complex and interesting topic from the view as developer. Some games are designed to run forever (until they stop being played or go out of business). Warframe is one of them in my opinion. Still, from a player's point of view, I think a fresh reboot of Warframe is an exciting thing in which a developer can apply a lot of learned and consciously avoid mistakes they know from experience. I would still cry after my account. :-P

 

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I would be more concerned if the "I quit" threads came from people that didnt consider themselves veterans. If you've been with a game long enough to feel as a veteran then the game must have provided you with quite extensive joy, unless you love to torture yourself as a hobby.

I think there are only 2 other games that I've spent as much time in as I have in Warframe. And 2 others that I've spent the same hours/year in. The two games clocking in at total Warframe hours is Marvel Heroes and WoW, well WoW probably has more since I played it for 7-8 years. Then the 2 others with hours/year that I played them was DaoC and SWG, though those two games never lasted the same amount of years, since they kinda replaced eachother and then got replaced by WoW.

Granted though, WF could really use some more veteran centered content.

 

8 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

If you look at a lvl 100 Sortie with elemental resistances, you don't really want to bring an elemental weapon. I kind of like that idea and I think it should be implemented everywhere. Of course game time and rewards should possibly be adjusted to match the change in game play.

I think these three quotes speak volumes to me as a vet. How does Warframe become dynamic enough to be like a Warframe 2 for vets, without sacrificing a vet's massive investment and yet still offer gameplay AND rewards that tie it all down and together? Railjack, SP and Deimos have been really nice directions towards that for me and so I have a lot of hype for what the next chapters are. We'll see.

  This thread's discussion is awesome!! Thanks for the great reads!

[NeoBahamut19]

On 2021-05-27 at 1:07 PM, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

You call my statement dumb and then proceed to prove my point. I was a new player about a year ago and my first 500 hours in Warframe was the most fun I’ve had in a video game in ages. So if your new friends aren’t enjoying it....shocker, it’s probably not the game for them. The late game is where the game’s biggest problems really show themselves, IMO.

To address the rest of your post - yes, Warframe is super grindy. It’s also free, and you have the option to spend money to lessen that grind. That’s like F2P 101.

But the thing is, most people who enjoy this game enjoy it for the mechanics and the core combat loop. It just feels good to play, which makes the grinding feel less tedious. I don’t mind doing the same thing over and over again when I’m having fun doing it. I also find grinding to be relaxing. That’s also just my subjective opinion and I know others will find the grind to be overbearing. That’s why I say this game isn’t for everyone.

There are plenty of things wrong with Warframe, I just don’t think the grind is one of them. It has ALWAYS been a game about grinding, so if you don’t enjoy that aspect of it, I will reiterate that this probably isn’t the game for you.

Edit: Just felt like I should clarify that yes, SOME grinds in this game are ridiculous (like the Hema), but as a whole, on average, it’s not bad at all, especially if you pace yourself and don’t try to get everything all at once. Your first example was the Helminth, which is a very easy grind to unlock.

 

You keep making my point, DE is going to go under because not only is there no signs of anything new in the pipeline, but they've made their game SO UNFRIENDLY TO NEW PLAYERS THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO COME PLAY.

How hard is that last part to understand? Saying "well go play something else" is literally the dumbest thing you can say about a game you say you care about, you're essentially (quite literally) saying "take your money elsewhere, we don't want more customers here". Thank you for speaking for Digital Extremes, thank you for being the voice for them.

[DragonFox16]

On 2021-05-27 at 10:48 PM, NeoBahamut19 said:

You keep making my point, DE is going to go under because not only is there no signs of anything new in the pipeline, but they've made their game SO UNFRIENDLY TO NEW PLAYERS THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO COME PLAY.

How hard is that last part to understand? Saying "well go play something else" is literally the dumbest thing you can say about a game you say you care about, you're essentially (quite literally) saying "take your money elsewhere, we don't want more customers here". Thank you for speaking for Digital Extremes, thank you for being the voice for them.

We are currently living in a "new era" where games start to run for decades as game as a service. But how many of them die and how many really make it 10 or 15 years? The ones that are really old right now have just established the model. At about 8 years, Waframe is doing well.
I don't know why you assume Warframe, or DE, is dying. What are you basing that on? I only have the numbers on Steam and there the player count looks pretty constant. Not growing. Not glorious. But not worrying either.

I also don't think it's stupid as a "fan" of the game to say that unhappy players should play something else. It's just honest. If I'm to recommend a game to a friend and I know they don't like grind, I'm not recommending Warframe to them. Just because I like Warframe doesn't make me go out and get customers for DE. Of course I realize that a large playerbase is good for Warframe and therefore good for me.  But I won't become a slimy salesman who only has my own well-being in mind.
Often the criticism from players is fundamental to the game. If you have small concerns it's something else and it can be discussed.  But if you complain about RNG and grind after a few dozen hours, you probably won't be happy with the game in future. I'm not going to change that, nor do I want to. I recommend whats good for others. That's the point of a recommendation.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think these three quotes speak volumes to me as a vet. How does Warframe become dynamic enough to be like a Warframe 2 for vets, without sacrificing a vet's massive investment and yet still offer gameplay AND rewards that tie it all down and together? Railjack, SP and Deimos have been really nice directions towards that for me and so I have a lot of hype for what the next chapters are. We'll see.

  This thread's discussion is awesome!! Thanks for the great reads!

All I can say is I feel pretty much the same. RJ, SP and Deimos have been nice additions going in the right direction. Though RJ is a bit on the "easy" side of things and dont really bring me much replay value as it is now. Buuuut, I hope that them fancy ladies and hopefully the OG liches will spice up RJ and give me an itch to go back there. Deimos was also on the easy side, but it brought me several hours of enjoyment non the less as a vet.

The main issue for DE when it comes to challenging vets is that the game isnt really well balanced. But the game is one important thing though... fun!