Endgame

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

With respect to you, I don't think you know what the OP is talking about when they reference the "Old Relays and Solar Rails"...

Those aren't Conclave as you know them today. Conclave, as you know it, is a much more structured and normalized environment from the ones referenced.

By "it" in "if it was something that could be integrated" did you mean PvP in general or just Solar Rail conflicts? Maybe I misunderstood. If you were talking just about Solar Rail Conflicts then I still think they could be integrated. Solar Rail Conflicts had a lot of problems, but they're all easily solvable using existing mechanics. Conclave rules for balancing, remove or rework the tax system, add more nodes to contest, and add meta rules about when and where a clan can invade.

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

If you were talking just about Solar Rail Conflicts then I still think they could be integrated. Solar Rail Conflicts had a lot of problems, but they're all easily solvable using existing mechanics. Conclave rules for balancing, remove or rework the tax system, add more nodes to contest, and add meta rules about when and where a clan can invade.

I've made no mention of whether or not DE "can"— I have no doubts they could... It's less a question of method than it is intent. 

It doesn't matter what methods DE employs to curb the behavior as the player's intent won't have changed.

Arguing that DE could insulate it enough to keep the types of toxic behavior that's happened every other time they allowed any form of PvP (indirect or otherwise) into the main game from happening again seriously underestimates the lengths people will go to either troll or exploit.

DE has plugged enough time, energy, and money into introducing PvP into the main game over the years and each instance has been a fail. 

Continuing to attempt to do so amounts to  Gambler's Fallacy.

[PublikDomain]

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I've made no mention of whether or not DE "can"— I have no doubts they could... It's less a question of method than it is intent. 

It doesn't matter what methods DE employs to curb the behavior as the player's intent won't have changed.

Arguing that DE could insulate it enough to keep the types of toxic behavior that's happened every other time they allowed any form of PvP (indirect or otherwise) into the main game from happening again seriously underestimates the lengths people will go to either troll or exploit.

So because some players might be toxic, none of us should be allowed to have competitive content? I don't really think that's fair, especially when most of the limited toxicity I've seen in Conclave stems from frustrations with the mode itself. When people aren't getting mad at the utterly basic functionality or cheap strategies that have been left unfixed for years they're getting mad that they can't find a game or that when they do they get facerolled by pros. This has nothing to do with people trolling or exploiting and everything to do with DE giving up half-way through and leaving the mode unfinished.

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

DE has plugged enough time, energy, and money into introducing PvP into the main game over the years and each instance has been a fail. 

Continuing to attempt to do so amounts to  Gambler's Fallacy.

I mean you could say that about any piece of content DE's abandoned over the years. Archwing was a failure, so should it never be touched again? No, it should be given a place in the game - which it has been as a vehicle for open worlds and Railjack. Trials were a failure, so should Trials never return? No, they were cool and DE has talked about making a new one. I don't think it's unfair to say that Nightwave has largely failed to meet the goals it was made for, yet for better or worse we're getting another season.

DE doing a poor job in the past isn't a good reason for content to continue to be left abandoned going into the future, it's a reason for DE to stop abandoning all this content when it isn't an immediate home run and put some effort into fixing up all the dead systems they keep leaving behind. Warframe's PvP sucking doesn't mean that PvP can't work in this game, it means that DE's done a sucky job with it and should do better.

From a DevStream sometime this year Conclave was brought up again, and DE's response was that they've got a mountain of feedback but no plans to do anything with it right now. They know what they need to do, but they aren't doing it. I think this is pretty obviously because of how busy they are with all of the other things they're working on, so I think it's fine to say that competitive content shouldn't be a focus now. But to say it should never be touched again? I don't agree. Competitive content has a lot of untapped potential and all of the groundwork has already been done. It'd be foolish to throw all of it in the garbage when it's so close to being good.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

So because some players might be toxic, none of us should be allowed to have competitive content? I don't really think that's fair, especially when most of the limited toxicity I've seen in Conclave stems from frustrations with the mode itself. When people aren't getting mad at the utterly basic functionality or cheap strategies that have been left unfixed for years they're getting mad that they can't find a game or that when they do they get facerolled by pros. This has nothing to do with people trolling or exploiting and everything to do with DE giving up half-way through and leaving the mode unfinished.

That's correct...

The PvP community here is in the minority. It shouldn't be allowed to dictate the play experiences of the vast majority of the community. On the last few occasions where DE introduced it into the game globally...That is precisely what happened.

• The fact that you think the alternative is fair betrays your bias on the matter.
• The fact that you think the outcome would be different is, with respect, insane.
• The fact that you blame that outcome on DE simply makes no sense... It's functionally equivalent to a thief blaming the place they robbed for having stuff they wanted.

DE doesn't have an obligation to make PvP viable in this game because it isn't a PvP game. 

In fact, when Warframe was originally announced in the "forever ago" it's description was as a PvP game...They changed it to be PvE instead. That's from a company that appears to be PvP fans no less...

If you want PvP then you should probably go play a PvP game instead of trying to retro-fit a PvE game into one instead.

DE could pull the plug on Conclave tomorrow and I doubt the loss of the 40 or so of you that left in protest would even be noticed... It's definitely less than the attrition DE can expect if they let PvP influence PvE again. Facts

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I mean you could say that about any piece of content DE's abandoned over the years...

I'm sure I could—But I won't... Because they aren't PvP. The rest of the modes had a purpose relating to PvE whereas PvP simply doesn't.

The only reason why Conclave is still a thing here is that it takes no additional upkeep for folks like yourself to play it... The day that changes you may well find it going the way of Trials.

A few of you put the paddles to Conclave 5 or 6 times a year and it fails because the facts remain that the mode serves no purpose, a portion of the players have proven themselves toxic and abusive,  and the playerbase doesn't like it to begin with.

Face it... PvP (regardless of form) may as well be Brussel Sprouts being served to bunch of folks that hate them.

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

16 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

You fool, why should a game be consistently fun and appealing?

Games have literally nothing to do with what I'm talking about; my post was about restaurants.

[Kontrollo]

  I'm not going to dismantle your post like you did mine, so if there's something specific you feel I should respond to, try again:

23 hours ago, chaotea said:

You mean the gamemode Archwing they have stopped any development on for years, and are talking about compleatly dismantling and removing the missions from the star chart?

Yes, i think i do.

As for Railjack, its too new to say otherwise.

Not sure i mentioned anything like whats fine for blocking progression, but fishing, mining and conservation dont require a large ongoing development. They only get updated whith the introduction of new open worlds. Any game with PvP elements requires near constant development and balancing.

And the reason people are 'up in arms' over cosmettics is only because none of these people want to play PvP. Thats not a great argument for developing PvP more.

Like PvP, Lunaros was too big a step from the core Warframe gameplay. You come for the PvE. So PvP is a side thing. Its not like CoD where your main audience is there for the PvP and you also have a zombies mode.

Destiny does it better, but only because it seperated its PvE and PvP expieriences. They have seperate dedicated teams, but are also very seperate games.

This is a comment i hate seeing. It shows no understanding of what game development is. But a comparison to destiny is useful here.

First, every patch comes with a huge addition of fixes. They arnt refusing to fix bugs. So how come they dont fix every bug?

 

Warframe was out before Destiny 1. Since then warframe has continued to add swaths of additional content. Despite complaints about 'content droughts' they preoduce far more for free than other companies make to sell in DLC. Constant updates, bear that in mind.

Destiny 1 was released in 2014. Three years later Destiny 2 was release, effectivly resetting the development clock. Last year Destiny 2 shelved Half their content. The reason: The game had become too bloated to effectivly manage all the bugs. Why? Because every system in a game interacts with every other system, often in ways that arnt apparent or dont make sense. So the more conent you have, the more that can go wrong.

Bungies solution to this on Destiny 2 was simply to cut swaths of content. Imagine if DE cut 50% of the content of warframe. The levels, gamemodes, weapons. Gone overnight.

But they havnt. They made the decision. Bugs arnt as bad as taking things away from people. Its why Lunaro is still in the game. Beacuse if 3 people like it, its worth keeping.

 

Also, and this is a big point, identifying a bug is not the same as identifying the issue. Even if you can explain a bug in exact detail, and the devs can replicate these bugs, theres still a massive task to find what systems are causeing this bug, but more importantly if you change this system what else would be affected? And its not just code, its often hardware issues from users.

 

Theres alot more to fixing bugs than finding them.

What I said was mostly to put things into perspective.

So yes, I mean that Archwing. I'd wager they spent a lot more resources on that and despite it being unpopular, they doubled (tripled, quadrupled?) down on it with many iterations of Railjack. Conclave is mostly untouched / deteriorating due to unrelated things (PvE bleeding into it) since about 2018 I think.

It's no wonder you bring up D2 in that context -- that game actually has devs who care a bit about the PvP side.

The bugs I was talking about are specific ones. Their main threads have recently been moderated (posts gone poof) and locked, reason given what basically amounts to: too old to keep bringing it up:

Spoiler

Mod reason for locking the first one:

To which I just have to say: except they don't visit or haven't cared about that subforum in a long time.

And these are only the worst offenders. Untouched for over 1 and 1.5 years, respectively. The kicker here is that the simplest fix for the first one would simply be to disable the weapon in question, setting a flag from 1 to 0.

And yeah, I do understand what game development is. I'm not doing game development myself, but I've programmed things in several languages.

 

But I guess it's a difference in philosophy. I'd rather have existing content that receives the bug fixes it needs than jump to the next big thing every 3-6 months, while overpromising and then underdelivering, I might add.

[Kontrollo]

On 2021-05-27 at 5:58 PM, SheikaVoid said:

I mean, as powerless as I am, I think the only reasonable thing to do is propose new systems, because DE has left Conclave outright broken for invested players (as few as they are), and effectively #*!%ed over any chance that people might try the mode through the mod attainability changes (though, let's be fair, in some regions and some platforms, it was impossible to get those mods, so I guess it's only fair.

Although it was very weird how they worded it with the mods: "moved to PvE" or something like that, I actually think it's a good idea to turn all of them into dual mods where it makes sense, then make them available somewhere in PvE as well (as they pretty much always have in the past).

That helps moving things closer together again.

As for allowing so many broken things in there and never addressing even simple to fix issues, that's of course an entirely different discussion.

[chaotea]

Just now, Kontrollo said:

  I'm not going to dismantle your post like you did mine, so if there's something specific you feel I should respond to, try again:

In case you dont know, you can highlight parts of a reply then quote just that.

2 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

What I said was mostly to put things into perspective.

Na, you got the hump and typed something sarcastic. We all get there, its cool.

2 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

So yes, I mean that Archwing. I'd wager they spent a lot more resources on that and despite it being unpopular, they doubled (tripled, quadrupled?) down on it with many iterations of Railjack. Conclave is mostly untouched / deteriorating due to unrelated things (PvE bleeding into it) since about 2018 I think.

I think your missing the point.

Arcwing has seen alot of re-development over the years, but thats not quite the same thing as development. Mostly its been a side thing: 3D movement changes due to inclusion in open world, Dash universal inclusion because of itzal being overly used in open world, new weapons introduced mainly for heavy weapon or necramechs. But development of the gamemode in particular hasnt happened in a long time, no more than the way conclave gets development through newly added weapons getting ballanced.

Also, Railjack isnt Arcwing. It contains archwing, but so does open worlds. Railjack might borrow elements from archwing, but open worlds borrow elements from the regular corridoor shooter mode. This doesnt mean every update or further development of open worlds is an update or development of regular coridoor modes.

10 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

It's no wonder you bring up D2 in that context -- that game actually has devs who care a bit about the PvP side.

I think thats what i said? Bungie made the decision to split their resourses between PvP and PVE. It shows because there PvP is way worse than games that only do PvP, and their PvE suffers from content droughts that makes Warframe look like a swimming pool.

To be clear, not hating on Bungie or Destiny, but the games never quite lived up to its expectations (at least on launch, ive not played either in some time). PvP always felt bogged down by the PvP side (if the guns were pre-selected, and classes pre-made it would have been a more competitive experience for example) while the PvE suffered in having to also  focus on what it might impact the PvP side.

15 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

The bugs I was talking about are specific ones. Their main threads have recently been moderated (posts gone poof) and locked, reason given what basically amounts to: too old to keep bringing it up:

The bugs you were talking about wernt specific ones, as you made no mention of specifics. You gave a generic statement.

As for old bugs getting fixed. I dont work in game development. I work in building development, in an architects practice. But there are alot of paralells. It can take 2-3 years to design and make a building, though you'd never realise to look at the final thing. Theres also issues, often quite small, that can go unadressed for ages just because you are berried under binger, or newer issues.

So its probably not that these issues are being ignored, or they refuse to fix it, but just that by the time you fix one bug, 3 more have been reported. And one of those causes people to loose what they have paid for, so thats got to be fixed ASAP. And another comes inthat causes crashes, so thats a priority. And by the time thats sorted another bugs come in that somehow brought back that first one. ect, ect, ect.

From a professional standpoint, i can fully understand why bugs dont get fixed. Bug A doesnt get fixed because bug B got fixed instead. Its that simple. If DE could have a perfect game at the snap of their fingers, they would take it. Of course they would. But the fact they dont isnt because they ignore it or are lazy. Its because warframe is a bloated monstrosity of lasagne layered code and patches and fixes. Its a jenga tower of issues, were pulling out one bug block could cause the whole thing to crash and burn.

27 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

And yeah, I do understand what game development is. I'm not doing game development myself, but I've programmed things in several languages.

I think you uderstand what game creation is, but not development. Development isnt coding a game, its all the moving parts.

 

28 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

But I guess it's a difference in philosophy. I'd rather have existing content that receives the bug fixes it needs than jump to the next big thing every 3-6 months, while overpromising and then underdelivering, I might add.

Then it would be better to play a offline game, were once its out its no longer developed. Because the thing about warframe is that if its not producing new content, if its not selling the next shiny thing, then it dies. Then we dont get new things or fixes for old things.

Also, the devs agree on the overpromise part. Which is why they cut down to 1/2 as many devstreams.

Still, my philosophy is different. I'd rather have new content than retread the same old tired content over and over until i get bored of it and never play the game again. Fixes are good, reworks are great, but unless you genuanly see a new update and dont even bother playing the content because you would rather use the guns you have on levels youve already played then i dont think you can truely claim to stand by that pholosophy.

I realise that sounds devisive, but im not trying to rattle cages, really. Im trying to get thoughts that arnt so negitive for no real reason.

And i dont think this is said enough, but if you really start feeling this crap about warframe, go play something else. And not in a toxic way. I just took 2 weeks away from warframe to play subnautica 2. And ive come back refreshed and am enjoying it alot more.

Obviously were all here because we love warframe and want it to be better. But sometimes you can stare at a problem too long and you forget the issues surrounding it.

[Kontrollo]

I specifically said I'm not going to dissect your post. I'm not in the mood to play that particular game, be concise if you want me to address something specific.

2 minutes ago, chaotea said:

In case you dont know, you can highlight parts of a reply then quote just that.

Na, you got the hump and typed something sarcastic. We all get there, its cool.

I think your missing the point.

Arcwing has seen alot of re-development over the years, but thats not quite the same thing as development. Mostly its been a side thing: 3D movement changes due to inclusion in open world, Dash universal inclusion because of itzal being overly used in open world, new weapons introduced mainly for heavy weapon or necramechs. But development of the gamemode in particular hasnt happened in a long time, no more than the way conclave gets development through newly added weapons getting ballanced.

Also, Railjack isnt Arcwing. It contains archwing, but so does open worlds. Railjack might borrow elements from archwing, but open worlds borrow elements from the regular corridoor shooter mode. This doesnt mean every update or further development of open worlds is an update or development of regular coridoor modes.

I think thats what i said? Bungie made the decision to split their resourses between PvP and PVE. It shows because there PvP is way worse than games that only do PvP, and their PvE suffers from content droughts that makes Warframe look like a swimming pool.

To be clear, not hating on Bungie or Destiny, but the games never quite lived up to its expectations (at least on launch, ive not played either in some time). PvP always felt bogged down by the PvP side (if the guns were pre-selected, and classes pre-made it would have been a more competitive experience for example) while the PvE suffered in having to also  focus on what it might impact the PvP side.

The bugs you were talking about wernt specific ones, as you made no mention of specifics. You gave a generic statement.

As for old bugs getting fixed. I dont work in game development. I work in building development, in an architects practice. But there are alot of paralells. It can take 2-3 years to design and make a building, though you'd never realise to look at the final thing. Theres also issues, often quite small, that can go unadressed for ages just because you are berried under binger, or newer issues.

So its probably not that these issues are being ignored, or they refuse to fix it, but just that by the time you fix one bug, 3 more have been reported. And one of those causes people to loose what they have paid for, so thats got to be fixed ASAP. And another comes inthat causes crashes, so thats a priority. And by the time thats sorted another bugs come in that somehow brought back that first one. ect, ect, ect.

From a professional standpoint, i can fully understand why bugs dont get fixed. Bug A doesnt get fixed because bug B got fixed instead. Its that simple. If DE could have a perfect game at the snap of their fingers, they would take it. Of course they would. But the fact they dont isnt because they ignore it or are lazy. Its because warframe is a bloated monstrosity of lasagne layered code and patches and fixes. Its a jenga tower of issues, were pulling out one bug block could cause the whole thing to crash and burn.

I think you uderstand what game creation is, but not development. Development isnt coding a game, its all the moving parts.

 

Then it would be better to play a offline game, were once its out its no longer developed. Because the thing about warframe is that if its not producing new content, if its not selling the next shiny thing, then it dies. Then we dont get new things or fixes for old things.

Also, the devs agree on the overpromise part. Which is why they cut down to 1/2 as many devstreams.

Still, my philosophy is different. I'd rather have new content than retread the same old tired content over and over until i get bored of it and never play the game again. Fixes are good, reworks are great, but unless you genuanly see a new update and dont even bother playing the content because you would rather use the guns you have on levels youve already played then i dont think you can truely claim to stand by that pholosophy.

I realise that sounds devisive, but im not trying to rattle cages, really. Im trying to get thoughts that arnt so negitive for no real reason.

And i dont think this is said enough, but if you really start feeling this crap about warframe, go play something else. And not in a toxic way. I just took 2 weeks away from warframe to play subnautica 2. And ive come back refreshed and am enjoying it alot more.

Obviously were all here because we love warframe and want it to be better. But sometimes you can stare at a problem too long and you forget the issues surrounding it.

Well, I guess it was not enough context to get my point across.

I brought Archwing up exactly because it's a side thing, as well. The main difference is that it's not as controversial, and unlike you, I'm enjoying both PvE and PvP modes. Yes, Archwing, too, although there isn't much reason to revisit those nodes because farm/grind is the name of the game.

But don't tell me that adding entirely new weapons, mods and Archwings and making things available in open worlds, adding new modes, then an entirely completely overhauled way of "Putting Tenno in Space" (which is also integrating Archwing), and announcing their rework into a modular system isn't several orders magnitude of difference in effort than balancing existing things for some separate modes.

 

And fixing bugs. People would be happy enough if they just fixed the bugs they introduce through PvE and shoddy separation. In that part of the game, new things  (aka. existing PvE things made available) are nice but not a necessity, in my opinion.

 

And not to open yet another side topic, but Bungie seems to be doing well with their strategy, so I'll leave it at that.

 

 

P.S. You did not ask me which bugs I was talking about, but instead said "it showed no understanding of what game development is". You write a lot, but one of my gripes is about not setting a flag from 1 to 0. No matter what you come up with to excuse that, it simply won't hold up. Especially not your -- paraphrased -- "play another game".

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

It shouldn't be allowed to dictate the play experiences of the vast majority of the community

Who is dictating anything? If you don't like competitive content you've never been forced to play it.

If anything, the people who so stubbornly oppose having competitive content for the people who are open to it are the ones trying to dictate the play experiences of everyone else.

[SheikaVoid]

I don't see how having certain (once) PvP only mods locked behind PvP, and now having cosmetic items locked behind PvP, negatively affects the general player experience any more than having certain cosmetics locked behind Nightwave does, likely far less so.

I absolutely hate Nightwave, I'm fine with it having exclusives, it doesn't dictate my play experience, and neither does the existence of PvP.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Who is dictating anything? If you don't like competitive content you've never been forced to play it.

If anything, the people who so stubbornly oppose having competitive content for the people who are open to it are the ones trying to dictate the play experiences of everyone else.

We can't dictate anything, especially since PvP is already in the game. Not what you'd prefer? Too bad.

PvP will simply never be popular, because it is competitive and invites a-holes to ruin the experience for others for their own amusement. That's a fact, and it has been proven time and again when some fool developers shove some open world PvP into their game. Although that's less about competitiveness and more about giving people with internet anonymity free rein to ruin everyones elses experience, but competitiveness does that regardless. It's a waste of time and resources, and at this point most developers have gotten the memo and don't try to shoehorn it down every players throat.

As has been pointed out, want PvP? Go play a PvP game. I know you don't want a balanced experience where everyone is on the same starting line, and instead want to have a leg up to gank beginners with your gank squad for your twisted amusement, but people like you ruined PvP for everyone, so it is what it is.

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Who is dictating anything? If you don't like competitive content you've never been forced to play it.

Players weren't forced to play Dark Sector nodes but since they provided more affinity and more loot than normal missions (along with rare mods drop chances from specific mobs having been higher there) players weren't so much forced as they were strongly encouraged instead.

PvP'ers mistreating that system is why it got closed down to begin with...

 

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

If anything, the people who so stubbornly oppose having competitive content for the people who are open to it are the ones trying to dictate the play experiences of everyone else.

The "everyone else" in that sentence literally describes the minority in question...

That'd be the group that shouldn't be dictating the play experience for the vast majority of the players in the game to begin with.

 

For what it's worth, you'd have a point if this game ever once marketed itself as a legitimate PvP or competitive game.... They haven't.

 

That's because it isn't one...

 

 

[PublikDomain]

39 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

The "everyone else" in that sentence literally describes the minority in question...

That'd be the group that shouldn't be dictating the play experience for the vast majority of the players in the game to begin with.

Again, no one but you is dictating anything. If you don't like PvP then don't play it. No one has ever forced anyone to play PvP if they don't want to.

Let's make an analogy: my office has a break room stocked with snacks. When I was first hired there was only soda in the fridge. My boss asked if there was anything I wanted and I told him that seltzer water would be cool. And so he bought some seltzer water.

Did I "dictate" anything by asking for a different kind of drink? No, because my boss buys the same amount of regular sodas too. Anyone in the office can drink whatever drinks they want.

Now if a coworker came to my boss and demanded that there be no more seltzer waters in the fridge because they don't like them, then my coworker would be trying to dictate what everyone else is allowed to drink. Said coworker would be a giant prick for getting so pissy about what other people like to drink. "This office has always drank soda and only soda! You're trying to take away my soda allotment! Stop dictating that there be other types of drinks!" It'd be a silly, petty, selfish thing to try and do.

And as it turned out, in the years that I've worked here the seltzer waters have become incredibly popular and are always the first to run out. I have to buy my own seltzer water sometimes, and if it goes in the fridge it's likely that I'll only get to drink a few cans out of the pack. Adding seltzer water has diversified our snacking options and has been a good addition to the break room despite the extra cost.

37 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

PvP'ers mistreating that system is why it got closed down to begin with...

And they could only mistreat the system because DE let them. PvP has sucked in Warframe first and foremost because of DE's lack of attention, which is something that's plagued many, many systems beyond just PvP.

34 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Players weren't forced to play Dark Sector nodes but since they provided more affinity and more loot than normal missions (along with rare mods drop chances from specific mobs having been higher there) players weren't so much forced as they were strongly encouraged instead.

And is there anything wrong with that? What, we can't have have competitive content because people that play it might get rewarded for their time?

25 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

For what it's worth, you'd have a point if this game ever once marketed itself as a legitimate PvP or competitive game.... They haven't.

Warframe's offered PvP since 2013. For all but about 8 months of its life Warframe has offered some sort of PvP activities. And Dark Sectors were even specifically introduced in U13 as an endgame PvP system.

Quote

- New End-Game System - the Dark Sectors! The first of the end-game projects to ship, the Dark Sectors were an area of space once inhabited, cut off, that players can reconnect with by building Solar Rails! Building Solar Rails allows for expansion and dominance into the Dark Sectors of the Solar System.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Again, no one but you is dictating anything. If you don't like PvP then don't play it. No one has ever forced anyone to play PvP if they don't want to.

With respect, I feel you've become rather redundant on the matter and you've made no statement that has effectively countered what I have said so far.

Anyone here back then saw exactly how those players acted in-game, on the forums, and with that control... DE killed it because it was toxic

Asserting that it's DE's fault is goofy.

Asserting it wouldn't happen again is disingenuous for the purposes of getting what you want— At best.

Your analogy... Well...

It isn't relevant unless 78+% of the office professed to have a Seltzer alllergy... Had they done so, your boss wouldn't have allowed seltzer to be stored in a common area anyway. At best the company would have provided you with a min-fridge to allow you to store your beverages and instructed you on expectations for disposal.

Which, incidentally, amounts to what Conclave is currently...

You are welcome to call that dictation if you want...It makes you sound like you think facts are negotiable to me though.

[SheikaVoid]

7 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

With respect, I feel you've become rather redundant on the matter and you've made no statement that has effectively countered what I have said so far.

Anyone here back then saw exactly how those players acted in-game, on the forums, and with that control... DE killed it because it was toxic

Asserting that it's DE's fault is goofy.

Asserting it wouldn't happen again is disingenuous for the purposes of getting what you want— At best.

Your analogy... Well...

It isn't relevant unless 78+% of the office professed to have a Seltzer alllergy... Had they done so, your boss wouldn't have allowed seltzer to be stored in a common area anyway. At best the company would have provided you with a min-fridge to allow you to store your beverages and instructed you on expectations for disposal.

Which, incidentally, amounts to what Conclave is currently...

You are welcome to call that dictation if you want...It makes you sound like you think facts are negotiable to me though.

Does drinking seltzer amount to something that actually affects the playerbase if it's cordoned off as you've put it within this inane analogy?

Conclave is already, essentially, cordoned off so severely from regular play as to make it inconsequential in terms of anything aside from cosmetics.

I really don't see the issue.

Edit: And, yes, Solar Rail conflicts didn't affect the playerbase at large either, you could still get affinity elsewhere.  Really, PvP has never affected the playerbase unless they chose to interact with it directly.  I can't recall something which was considered essential that has ever been gated behind PvP.

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

Does drinking seltzer amount to something that actually affects the playerbase if it's cordoned off as you've put it within this inane analogy?

Conclave is already, essentially, cordoned off so severely from regular play as to make it inconsequential in terms of anything aside from cosmetics.

Yes. That's precisely why it's cordoned off... I agree that the analogy is inane (I didn't make it) but it's clearly served it's purpose if you've gleaned that much.

4 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

I really don't see the issue.

I'm thinking that's only because you've opted to only see what you want to...

4 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

Edit: And, yes, Solar Rail conflicts didn't affect the playerbase at large either, you could still get affinity elsewhere.  Really, PvP has never affected the playerbase unless they chose to interact with it directly.  I can't recall something which was considered essential that has ever been gated behind PvP.

If you actually played the game during that period then I know that the statement you've made above is either rose tinted bias or an outright lie. If you did not then you actually haven't one clue on the matter and I'd invite you to read previous portions of this thread and get yourself clued in instead.

Your forum account is way too young to be speaking knowledgeably on the matter but you could just be hiding your actual account to instigate on the forums instead though.

In truth, I don't really care which of the options you fall into as it's the Devs that will, ultimately, see this and make determinations on its' viability like they likely have for each of these posts as Conclave complaints seems to crop up fairly regularly.

Haggling with me on the matter does little aside from keeping a dead thread on life support a bit longer...  If you plan to keep doing that, please do say something interesting, meaningful, and new going forward. Reading declarations from you when I've provided evidence to the contrary already fits into none of those categories.

[Kontrollo]

53 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

... If you plan to keep doing that, please do say something interesting, meaningful, and new going forward. Reading declarations from you when I've provided evidence to the contrary already fits into none of those categories.

How about this, then:

54 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yes. That's precisely why it's cordoned off... I agree that the analogy is inane (I didn't make it) but it's clearly served it's purpose if you've gleaned that much.

That's not the whole story.

Potato blueprints got removed from the rewards of Conclave 2.0 very early on due to community feedback. And unlike with other Syndicates -- initially it was treated like them -- Zylok never made it into Teshin's shop, either. That happened exactly because there's so much opposition in this community, trying to say otherwise is just more reality distortion.

[AkyFenrir]

Le 27/05/2021 à 08:06, SheikaVoid a dit :

There's no such thing as infinitely sustainable PvE, because the developers can only put out so much content within each release date to satisfy the players.

Thus, PvP is required, but not some bogeyman like Conclave.

I don't care if my clan is rank 1 or rank 10000 because it's meaningless in a game like warframe. It's a time spent counter...
Now if you get bored of PVE, making a PVE ranking system is  not going to magically extend the life of PVE. In fact it cause more burn out by the necessity to play even more to achieve results.

Le 27/05/2021 à 08:06, SheikaVoid a dit :

Why not make people care about the world?  Organizations in EVE and other MMOs draw player investment through well-fleshed-out economy and war systems.

There are a lot of people interested in the world already (at least lorewise). Don't know anything about EVE, but pretending economies are well fleshed in MMO is a big joke. Most economies lead you to waste ig money while crafting because people sell at a loss and can't understand basic economy concepts. (and most of them are controlled by people who do know about economics) I'm not selling at a loss but i'm not interested in a system advantaging directly IRL knowledge of economics.

As for War systems in MMO as far as i know. WoW is boostland currently for rating, there's none in FF14, GW2 is basically boring because you fight for a server and it doesn't provide anything specific for winning anyway.
Most MMO PVP is really bad and ridiculously unbalanced.

Le 27/05/2021 à 08:06, SheikaVoid a dit :

Really, a reworked Solar Rail, or even a more substantial system of Syndicates/Supporting Factions wherein clans and individuals compete against enemies for a real, tangible reward with actual implications might sustain a lively playerbase.

What would that system be ? i don't care about another faction or a system designed exclusively for big clans.
And what's a good reward anyway? how do you make it repeat effectively over time considering the % of players dealing with those rewards would be so limited and the fact they don't make money out of those rewards where they could sell them easily on the shop?

Le 27/05/2021 à 08:06, SheikaVoid a dit :

That's all, just an idea, and likely an overwrought one, but I'd like to hear some opinions on the implementation of meaningful and "competitive" PvE.

I don't like the association of competitive and pve. It's possible to make good hard content that isn't by definition competitive. In fact by making content competitve you repulse a lot of people who are not competitive minded.

If i want competition i go PVP games...

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I agree that the analogy is inane

Oh I think it's a perfectly suitable analogy. It's an optional thing that negatively affects no one that could be added for the enjoyment of people who like it. It's the same with competitive content. You're a big boy, I'm sure you can handle bots being added to Conclave or the Armistice being lifted just like my coworkers were big boys and could handle having seltzer water added to the fridge. The competitive content can't hurt you, Padre.

17 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

It isn't relevant unless 78+% of the office professed to have a Seltzer alllergy... Had they done so, your boss wouldn't have allowed seltzer to be stored in a common area anyway. At best the company would have provided you with a min-fridge to allow you to store your beverages and instructed you on expectations for disposal.

Do you even know what seltzer water is...? It's carbonated water... It's soda without the syrup. A seltzer allergy! 🤦‍♀️

Though if we want to treat carbonated water like some hazardous waste that needs to be cordoned off, have another analogy: my housemate doesn't like carbonated drinks. He says it gives him a stomachache. Does he stomp his feet and cry whenever I bring carbonated drinks into the house? No, because I'm not sticking a funnel down his throat and forcing him to drink it. He's not so self-centered that he thinks every drinkable liquid in the house has to be suitable for his tastes, he's a big boy and he can pick and choose what he drinks.

17 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Asserting that it's DE's fault is goofy.

Who else could be at fault? The players certainly can't add features to the mode themselves. The players certainly can't balance weapons themselves. DE's the only one capable of making changes, so if it's not DE's fault that the necessary changes haven't been made then whose is it??

[Kontrollo]

On 2021-05-29 at 8:49 AM, SheikaVoid said:

Conclave is already, essentially, cordoned off so severely from regular play as to make it inconsequential in terms of anything aside from cosmetics.

I really don't see the issue.

Edit: And, yes, Solar Rail conflicts didn't affect the playerbase at large either, you could still get affinity elsewhere.  Really, PvP has never affected the playerbase unless they chose to interact with it directly.  I can't recall something which was considered essential that has ever been gated behind PvP.

See, the issue is as follows: there are quite a few people here who are so fundamentally opposed to the idea that even the current state of things isn't good enough. I.e. in a game full of farm & grind that is the side part that isn't allowed to have any progression in the overall system.

Of course that doesn't make it very attractive to people who don't mind playing both PvE and PvP, but that doesn't matter...

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Who else could be at fault? The players certainly can't add features to the mode themselves. The players certainly can't balance weapons themselves. DE's the only one capable of making changes, so if it's not DE's fault that the necessary changes haven't been made then whose is it??

... except of course for DE's popularity metrics. And of course because it's pretty clear they don't (or no one with a say at HQ) play Conclave themselves, otherwise they'd have done something about the most glaring issues a long time ago.

 

 

By the way, I'm not here to defend Dark Sector Conflicts -- the implementation -- either. In my opinion, they were flawed in quite a few and significant ways. That doesn't mean they should've shelved the concept entirely. And they've talked about it for some time, too, which then somewow resulted in the introduction of SO / ESO. 🤔

I'm still curious about what happened behind the scenes there, although we'll probably never know.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

... except of course for DE's popularity metrics. And of course because it's pretty clear they don't (or no one with a say at HQ) play Conclave themselves, otherwise they'd have done something about the most glaring issues a long time ago.

That's a big part of it. But this isn't a Conclave-specific issue, this is pretty general to basically any feature you can point to. If a feature isn't immediately popular or tickle leadership's particular fancies then it gets abandoned a month or two after release. This still happens, though it feels to me that they're doing a teensy bit better about it, or at least seem to be more aware of what that kind of development cycle does to the game.

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

And they've talked about it for some time, too, which then somewow resulted in the introduction of SO / ESO. 🤔

I'm still curious about what happened behind the scenes there, although we'll probably never know.

We can take guesses. When they announced it originally I'm sure there was a lot of immediate pushback from the usual crowd about having new competitive content added, and they probably decided to just skip implementing the competitive part since it didn't seem that it'd be a hit anyways and release what they had as a PvE-only mode. It's probably for the better, I don't think SO/ESO would have made a good place for clans to compete. It just doesn't seem very conducive to that.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2021-05-29 at 6:10 AM, Kontrollo said:

How about this, then:

That's not the whole story.

Potato blueprints got removed from the rewards of Conclave 2.0 very early on due to community feedback. And unlike with other Syndicates -- initially it was treated like them -- Zylok never made it into Teshin's shop, either. That happened exactly because there's so much opposition in this community, trying to say otherwise is just more reality distortion.

I don't know if it checks all the boxes, but being that it's you, I'd call it worthy of a response:

For my part, I haven't said otherwise—In fact, nothing I have said so far speaks to anything other than the PvE community being opposed to having PvP in it and that there is enough documented instances to support why that is.  That's, literally, been my point this entire thread...

In regard to your "other half of the story"? I haven't a clue... When exactly was that done? Have you asked DE? Was it within the same timeframe as when they removed Alerts? 

Absent that, I would say that there is enough reality distortion on display in this thread from folks asking for PvP (in any form) to be returned globally that you needn't contrive additional instances.

Given our previous interactions, I know your point is less intrusive than the one put forward in this thread and leans more into the "separate but equal dev time" category. With respect, I don't share your opinion either.

To now, we've had Conclave, Solar Rails, A dojo room that folks had to build, Dark Sector Drama, Conclave 2.0, and Lunaro. That's not even mentioning exclusives there were either completely exclusive to the mode or locked behind pay/time/rng walls to begin with. 

DE's put the effort in to get you a larger audience—The mode didn't take. 

• Choosing not to accept that fact?
• Acting like it's DE's fault or complaining for more attention when you get it regularly now?
• Asserting that "if you can get just one more thing it will make things better"?  

That's reality distortion...

[SheikaVoid]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

• Asserting that "if you can get just one more thing it will make things better"?  

That's reality distortion...

For my part, I don't think competitive PvE qualifies as "one more thing" in the vein of Conclave.

My point, the one put forth initially, was that PvE-only MMO elements with no competition whatsoever cannot be sustained indefinitely. 

[Kontrollo]

On 2021-05-30 at 7:42 PM, PublikDomain said:

We can take guesses. When they announced it originally I'm sure there was a lot of immediate pushback from the usual crowd about having new competitive content added, and they probably decided to just skip implementing the competitive part since it didn't seem that it'd be a hit anyways and release what they had as a PvE-only mode. It's probably for the better, I don't think SO/ESO would have made a good place for clans to compete. It just doesn't seem very conducive to that.

I'm not even sure they ever announced it as such before the release, but my memory is quite hazy on that. I I think I remember there was a dev stream where they talked about it briefly. And of course there are the logs.

But I have no idea how they wanted to make this work in a clan setting or otherwise connect it to Dark Sector Conflicts. It feels so out of place.

 

On 2021-05-30 at 9:42 PM, Padre_Akais said:

I don't know if it checks all the boxes, but being that it's you, I'd call it worthy of a response:

For my part, I haven't said otherwise—In fact, nothing I have said so far speaks to anything other than the PvE community being opposed to having PvP in it and that there is enough documented instances to support why that is.  That's, literally, been my point this entire thread...

In regard to your "other half of the story"? I haven't a clue... When exactly was that done? Have you asked DE? Was it within the same timeframe as when they removed Alerts? 

Absent that, I would say that there is enough reality distortion on display in this thread from folks asking for PvP (in any form) to be returned globally that you needn't contrive additional instances.

Given our previous interactions, I know your point is less intrusive than the one put forward in this thread and leans more into the "separate but equal dev time" category. With respect, I don't share your opinion either.

To now, we've had Conclave, Solar Rails, A dojo room that folks had to build, Dark Sector Drama, Conclave 2.0, and Lunaro. That's not even mentioning exclusives there were either completely exclusive to the mode or locked behind pay/time/rng walls to begin with. 

DE's put the effort in to get you a larger audience—The mode didn't take. 

• Choosing not to accept that fact?
• Acting like it's DE's fault or complaining for more attention when you get it regularly now?
• Asserting that "if you can get just one more thing it will make things better"?  

That's reality distortion...

When that was done? As I said, that happened shortly after the release of Conclave 2.0 back in 2015. Obviously not Zylok, because it was never in any Syndicate shop, but you get the idea as there was never a Syndicate weapon in Teshin's.

DE removed alerts with the advent of Nightwave -- which, coincidentally also never had any PvP challenges -- so that was quite some time later.

 

Funny that you pick up on the "reality distortion" thing. I think by now it's pretty clear you're just out of the loop about what's going on here. You probably think Conclave is still getting any proper form of attention; but dedicated devs, that was mostly back in 2015/2016 and I'd say at the latest in 2018.

Lunaro was made for the people who didn't want to shoot each other. In hindsight, the armistice is pretty much just a lie. Several additional Conclave 2.0 modes either got removed (Variant) or never saw the light again (events).

Also, I brought up Archwing in my previous posts -- maybe you just haven't read them -- and it's striking how the treatment is different. So don't bother trying to coopt that term, it's clear what's going on, even if we don't know every single detail of who works on what.

By the way, newbies are still starting with only a melee, something which hasn't been fixed since 2016 or who knows how early it got introduced. If they put in that much effort, are they just incompetent, then?