Would a small hop while ADSing or manually blocking be a nice addition?

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm siding with Aldain on this, but first I'd like to ask What level missions do you normally play?

Hold on, waiting for Aldain to respond. Might help clear up misunderstandings

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What do you reckon I think about the points you’ve made?

You’re addressing some sort of view that you think I have, and I’m curious what you think it is

I was just clarifying that the overarching issue isn't exclusive to Steel Path and is causing many issues across the game that even implementing a short hop wouldn't fix.

The state of affairs currently actively punishes slowing down and aiming past a certain point, and while a short hop while ADSing would be nice and I'd enjoy it, it still doesn't change the inherent issue that should be addressed first.

I'm all for new options and discussion, but I also think keeping the relative perspective in mind is conducive to effective planning and discussion.

Basically, I'm not addressing an issue I think you have, I'm addressing and issue that would interfere with the topic of adding short hop when it would still fall off fairly quickly, especially against AoE enemies that have range that would be larger than the distance of the hop.

[Aldain]

Double Post, it finally got me.

[Teliko_Freedman]

I'm reminded of the sidestep, then roll from using a Light Bowgun from Monster Hunter World.

That or the sideways Fadeslash on Longsword followed by a roll to the side.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I was just clarifying that the overarching issue isn't exclusive to Steel Path and is causing many issues across the game that even implementing a short hop wouldn't fix.

The state of affairs currently actively punishes slowing down and aiming past a certain point, and while a short hop while ADSing would be nice and I'd enjoy it, it still doesn't change the inherent issue that should be addressed first.

I'm all for new options and discussion, but I also think keeping the relative perspective in mind is conducive to effective planning and discussion.

Basically, I'm not addressing an issue I think you have, I'm addressing and issue that would interfere with the topic of adding short hop when it would still fall off fairly quickly, especially against AoE enemies that have range that would be larger than the distance of the hop.

Alright, thanks for clarifying. 

If I’m reading this right, you’re saying that a problem with combat in Warframe is that it’s “either you’re nuking or being nuked” and that slowing down and ADSing quickly becomes a non-option?

Are we approaching this from an angle of “For most of the content, this idea will not work because of overarching problems”, or is it being approached from “For players engaging in extremely high-level content, this idea will not work”? What angle are we coming at this discussion from?

[TARINunit9]

19 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Alright, thanks for clarifying. 

If I’m reading this right, you’re saying that a problem with combat in Warframe is that it’s “either you’re nuking or being nuked” and that slowing down and ADSing quickly becomes a non-option?

That is exactly what both of us have been saying

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are we approaching this from an angle of “For most of the content, this idea will not work because of overarching problems”, or is it being approached from “For players engaging in extremely high-level content, this idea will not work”? What angle are we coming at this discussion from?

To answer that, we need to ask why you want this option in the first place. Do you just want the existing combat roll to be shortened just as a minor quality-of-life tweak? You said in a pervious post you think rolling moves you too far. Or do you want Warframe to magically become a different flavor of shooter game?

Adding in a combat maneuver that really only benefits new players (and players who exclusively play with weak guns against weak enemies) but slowly becomes useless as players advance through the rest of the game... I mean it's not the worst idea I've ever heard? But at best it's just quirky, like how you start Half Life 2 with melee weapons and SMGs, then play the rest of the game with the Gravity Gun and NPC allies and never touch the SMG again. At worst it's frustrating game design, where you spend a lot of time practicing skills that stop mattering

[Aldain]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

If I’m reading this right, you’re saying that a problem with combat in Warframe is that it’s “either you’re nuking or being nuked” and that slowing down and ADSing quickly becomes a non-option?

A bit more that it turns into that after a certain point, but for the most part yes.

If Warframe had a more steady damage curve ADSing for long periods would be more practical, but there's also the aspect of it being less preferred because blindly swinging a melee weapon outpaces pretty much everything that needs to aim anyway.

I'd honestly like to see things slowed down a bit, less errant nuking in both directions and more appreciation to aiming rather than grabbing a Bramma and dumbfiring in whatever direction is making noise.

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

 -snip-

Hmmm.

So let me get this straight;

I say “Would a small hop be a nice addition”, and you say “Warframe doesn’t play like that.”

I say “Warframe is playing like that for me as we speak”, and you say “Warframe doesn’t play like that at the higher levels”.

I say “I wondered whether you were speaking from a higher-level perspective”, because fair enough, it’s a different perspective from mine, and I’d already referenced that stuff like Steel Path is a different story.

Then you say “It doesn’t work like that across the game. There’s no skill involved in Warframe”. And then we’re back to the fact that I am playing Warframe in a way that contradicts what you say (in this case in a way that requires aiming well, positioning myself well, moving well, making decisions on the fly well, and using my available tools well. Skill-based stuff, and I’m winning or losing based on how well I do). High level stuff might be different, and I wouldn’t argue that the balance might be askew in Steel Path-like high level content, but now you’re again telling me that what I’m experiencing is not what I’m experiencing.

Then you ask me what level content I play, and I tell you to hang on. I don’t know what point you were going to make except maybe that I’m not familiar with the extremely high-level stuff, to which I’d be like “Yup”, because I’ve been talking from a perspective of almost all Star Chart stuff; relic cracking, bounties, quests, nightmares, invasions, etc. You know, most of the content that people would be going through.

And you then insert yourself into a conversation between Aldain and myself. Okay, fair enough, it’s a forum. Not such a problem. What is… less of a problem and more just plain weird, is that you can’t seem to tell if I want a small quality of life change (yes), or a revamped Warframe. Where did you even pull that idea from?

And then you poo-poo my idea, which is fine, I did ask for thoughts on the matter, not an echo chamber of “Great idea” or anything. But what you brought to the table is “Only new players would appreciate it, and then they’ll get frustrated because they’ll try to get good at it and it turns out it’s unneccessary”. (how much effort do you think it’d take to get good at doing a sidehop? And how’s that wall-latch, or backflip, or wall run working for you? Seeing a lot of use, I assume. And because you’re the only one playing Warframe right, the unused stuff should just be stripped out)

Does all of this sound about right? Please tell me if I’ve misunderstood something.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just realised I misread part of your latest post there, @TARINunit9, so I’d like to apologise for the aggression towards the end of my response post and roll it back

Most everything else I’d leave as-is, but being mildly triggered for a misreading of “Not the worst idea I’ve ever heard” and letting it manifest in my response isn’t fair or cool

[TARINunit9]

9 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Then you say “It doesn’t work like that across the game. There’s no skill involved in Warframe”.

That's a gross misrepresentation of what I said, dude, why don't you-

7 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Just realised I misread part of your latest post there, @TARINunit9, so I’d like to apologise for the aggression towards the end of my response post and roll it back

Most everything else I’d leave as-is, but being mildly triggered for a misreading of “Not the worst idea I’ve ever heard” and letting it manifest in my response isn’t fair or cool

OK I can understand that

 

9 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

And you then insert yourself into a conversation between Aldain and myself.

I mean you did explicitly say you wanted to reply to both of us...

[(NSW)Greybones]

34 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I mean you did explicitly say you wanted to reply to both of us...

In due time 👍 .

My "So what angle are we approaching from" was meant to segue into clarifying our perspectives, and my perspective would have been defined (I'm coming from mostly Star Chart level stuff) and your question would have been answered. Since it didn't happen that way, I answered in my next post because it was taking too long for a simple question.

34 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

That's a gross misrepresentation of what I said, dude, why don't you-

If I misrepresented what you said, I feel that means I've misunderstood something:

21 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Both yes and no. As much as all the suggestions coming down the pipeline in this forums think that Warframe is a skill-based shooter, it really isn't, it's a grind-based horde annihilation game

My impression came from the "Much as people think Warframe's a skill-based shooter, it really isn't", but I'm feeling like there's context here that you have and I'm missing. If you can clarify, that'd be appreciated 👍

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

My impression came from the "Much as people think Warframe's a skill-based shooter, it really isn't", but I'm feeling like there's context here that you have and I'm missing. If you can clarify, that'd be appreciated 

"Is not a skill-based shooter" means that the player's success is determined by factors other than skill. In Warframe, these factors are preparation and experimentation. The player can input more skill if they wish (for example, using the Sybaris instead of the Tonkor) but the results will usually be mostly the same (if both weapons have the same mods, the enemies will be roughly the same amount of dead)

"No skill involved" is a derogatory statement implying either 1) that an opponent has an unfair advantage that allows them to achieve better results with less practice and talent, or 2) that the game is boring. I do not feel either of these implications apply to Warframe: I do not feel the game is boring, and I do not feel any of the main advantages you can take count as "unfair"

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

"Is not a skill-based shooter" means that the player's success is determined by factors other than skill. In Warframe, these factors are preparation and experimentation. The player can input more skill if they wish (for example, using the Sybaris instead of the Tonkor) but the results will usually be mostly the same (if both weapons have the same mods, the enemies will be roughly the same amount of dead)

"No skill involved" is a derogatory statement implying either 1) that an opponent has an unfair advantage that allows them to achieve better results with less practice and talent, or 2) that the game is boring. I do not feel either of these implications apply to Warframe: I do not feel the game is boring, and I do not feel any of the main advantages you can take count as "unfair"

Cool cool, thanks for clarifying.

This could be a whole other topic in and of itself, but I'm pretty happy just to see the perspective you're coming from. Makes us closer to the same page, and I'll keep this personal interpretation in the back of my mind going forward

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2021-05-30 at 3:37 PM, Teliko_Freedman said:

I'm reminded of the sidestep, then roll from using a Light Bowgun from Monster Hunter World.

That or the sideways Fadeslash on Longsword followed by a roll to the side.

Yeah, sort of what I was thinking. Not as long-distance even, more like the Lance's sidehop (though maybe easier to spam. I'm thinking "Dance between the MOA's bullets" while being able to sidestep a rocket or a Jugulus' boomerang thing. )

I'm working on a rough animation to post when I submit my feedback idea representing what I'm thinking of, and your reminding me of Monster Hunter is quite appreciated, since I can look into some reference 👍

edit: Sorry for the long delay. I read your post and was like "Yeah!", and meant to respond a lot earlier, but then got distracted 😅