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Someone said Condition Overload makes melee OP so I'm narrowing the power jump a bit


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Seeing condition overload gives you 120% damage per status, and with up to 13 damage types (not counting void) makes melee with high status chance having insane jump in power (up to 1560%) So let's change it a bit.

Instead of giving you 120% per status, I'm changing it to give 150% bonus on enemy under status effect so it's no longer stacks of damage increase, just one layer of 150% bonus damage

Pretty harsh, but I believe it helps narrowing the gap in balance

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Might as well just remove it from the game, since its additive to Primed Pressure Point (165%), so its just a direct downgrade from another mod.

Also, the theorical max value its hilarious, usually unless you REALLY setup a kill, you just happens to have 4 status, maybe 5.

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15 minutes ago, Horonelius said:

Condition Overload caps at 3 status effects.

Was that changed? On the wiki it says that its possible to stack up to 16 status effects and it counts all of them.

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CO is not overpowered. In fact it’s actually completely useless at lower levels (level 50-150) as it greatly reduces the damage output of your first hit, which is the hit most enemies should be dying on. CO is only really useful against higher level enemies that require several hits to kill.

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friendly reminder that even if you nerf CO into the ground, people will just go back to Weeping Wounds and other builds that were meta prior to COs introduction. the problem of melee being so powerful can't be solved by just nerfing a mod, all that will do is annoy people. 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

friendly reminder that even if you nerf CO into the ground, people will just go back to Weeping Wounds and other builds that were meta prior to COs introduction. the problem of melee being so powerful can't be solved by just nerfing a mod, all that will do is annoy people. 

Well to be fair, the insane damage gains from Condition Overload contribute mightily to the problem. 

One mod shouldn't be providing a 600%+ damage bonus after hitting an enemy once or twice. 

At least Bloodlust needs to have crit multiplier mods and Combo Duration to  see real value from it. Similarly with Weeping Wounds. Without statuses to apply, it doesn't really do much on its own, along with taking some time to setup.

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Current state
Majority of melee viable
Gameplay with melee is fluid
Different approaches viable (fast attack or heavy attack)

People want only few melee to be viable and gameplay should be 5 min whacking one enemy

Srsly are some people so dumb? Melee is in a very good spot (wish guns where in a similar spot)
Nerfing melee and we have the same situation with guns. (single target = trash)

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Might as well squish all the stats to narrow the gap for balance.

Have Critical Damage and Viral Procs additive with Base Damage instead of multiplicative. Replace the headshot multiplier with a flat +100 Critical Chance on headshots. That would narrow the gap between hybrid weapons, crit weapons and status weapons.

Remove enemy armor scaling so Slash is in line with everything else.

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2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Might as well squish all the stats to narrow the gap for balance.

Have Critical Damage and Viral Procs additive with Base Damage instead of multiplicative. Replace the headshot multiplier with a flat +100 Critical Chance on headshots. That would narrow the gap between hybrid weapons, crit weapons and status weapons.

Remove enemy armor scaling so Slash is in line with everything else.

Alternatively:
Viral - stacking damage bonus against red health. No effect against Shields or Armor (yellow health). 
Magnetic - Well, It already does the stackiing bonus against shields doesnt it?
Corrosive - Stacking damage bonus against Armor (All types)
Also, change these 3 effects to standalone mods instead of combinations of base elements. Limited to one per weapon. 

Possibly could remake current Slash procs into 'Bleed', which can be procced by all 3 physical damage types. 
Impact could Stun (not knockdown/back) at 10 stacks. 
Puncture could Disarm ranged weapons at 10 stacks (think of it as puncturing armor/shield to hit ammo in reserve, removing the weapon using said ammo from use)
Slash could Disarm Melee weapons (Slashing an arm causing the weapon to be dropped etc. For infested units, severe melee damage reduction in place of disarm)
Then modify Condition Overload to something like:
Augment Status Effects. Usable on all weapons. 
Toxin - Ticks faster, scales the damage higher as it it ticks. 
Heat - Causes afflicted targets to spread Heat to nearby targets. Range and chance affected by stack quantity.
Cold - Afflicted target takes additional Cold damage when struck, based on the number of stacks. Target is Frozen at 10 stacks for 3 seconds. Strike frozen target to Shatter for x% of maximum health.  
Electricity - Increases range of the tesla effect based on the stack size. Increase damage to Armor. 
Blast - status application causes a radial explosion, damage and radius affected by stack size. 
Radiation - affected targets spread Radiation to their targets. 

Basically, the idea is to bake in the damage from current CO to our main 3 damage types targetting factions, while also disconnecting Slash from the Bleed status which allows IPS to be rebuilt as defensive statuses.
From there, CO can be used to enhance Elemental Status Effects for weapons that utilize Statuses heavily to bring them up a bit compared to crit based weapons. 

Nothing even remotely similar would ever actually be done, But it was fun to think about over dinner. 

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17 hours ago, Reitrix said:

Well to be fair, the insane damage gains from Condition Overload contribute mightily to the problem. 

One mod shouldn't be providing a 600%+ damage bonus after hitting an enemy once or twice. 

At least Bloodlust needs to have crit multiplier mods and Combo Duration to  see real value from it. Similarly with Weeping Wounds. Without statuses to apply, it doesn't really do much on its own, along with taking some time to setup.

You say that the melee weapons shouldn’t have a 600%+ damage increase and then go on to defend crit? Dude, when you have blood rush fully stacked your damage will be increased way more than 600%
 

CO isn’t the problem.

IMO its combo and combo mods that really break the game.

In my opinion, either CO or the combo system should be removed. Together, melee is quite disgusting 

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CO doesn't make melee OP.

Blood Rush, Slash + Viral, CO, Naramon, Fury & Strike arcanes, bubbles, movement speeds, and the ability to clean out mobs without having to line up shots, all combine to make melee usually the most effective and most convenient way to play a game that's all about the grind.

Taking away any one of those does nothing to curb melee, on its own. And I don't think most players actually want to see enough of them nerfed or changed to the extent necessary to bring melee down to the level of ranged weapons. Some of the guns are, at least, useful for boss fights and situations where longer reach saves some effort on the starmap. But 99% of them are a chore to use on Exterminate, for instance, with hundreds of enemies to take out.

Better to just power creep the ranged weapons, instead. Which is exactly what they've been doing. And address the issue of other elements and physical damage types being garbage compared to Slash + Viral, since that effects ranged as well as melee combat.

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If I'm being honest, the scaling mods as a whole are all in this boat. They're no use at lower levels, and make for an obscene power gap at high levels.

 

For reference, Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds are both better than every non-augment, non-riven mod combined on any given weapon class. As in, you could stack every status mod together for a rifle (7 mods and a total of 55 capacity) and it'd not be as good as just one 9 capacity mod for melee. One who's sole downside can be circumvented with a second mod that outright improves Weeping Wound's base effect!

In other words, the opportunity cost for Weeping Wounds is almost non-existent and its reward compared to every other status mod is incredibly high.

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14 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You say that the melee weapons shouldn’t have a 600%+ damage increase and then go on to defend crit? Dude, when you have blood rush fully stacked your damage will be increased way more than 600%
 

CO isn’t the problem.

IMO its combo and combo mods that really break the game.

In my opinion, either CO or the combo system should be removed. Together, melee is quite disgusting 

Way to miss the point. 
CO functions ALONE. You put that single mod in and experience an insane scaling damage boost that the weapon it's installed on doesnt even have to provide the catalyst for. 
Compared to Bloodrush, which not only requires the weapon have a decent Critical percentage to start with, it also requires that you install Critical Damage mods. It also has an immediate ceiling in the form of Red Crits. 
However, Not all weapons can Red Crit even with Bloodrush. Meaning the mod has a variable improvement in maximum strength in can apply to the installed weapon. 
On top of that, in order to start seeing real benefits, you need to get your Combo up and keep it high. Meaning the bonus comes and goes unless you dedicate yourself to maintaining it high, again through the use of synergistic Combo Duration and Combo Count mods and a gameplay focus of prioritising melee.
CO on the other hand, can provide its maximum benefit on the first hit by brushing the target with a weapon like Kuva Nukor to 'prime' the victim with half a dozen Statuses. 

While Bloodrush is incredibly strong, it ISNT a standalone mod. In order for it to be strong, you need to pair it with synergistic Mods in the form of Critical Multipliers. 
CO can be placed on a weapon with 0% Status chance and still reach maximum damage on first hit.
The benefit it provides is far too high for such an infinitely small investment.

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On 2021-05-28 at 10:40 PM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing condition overload gives you 120% damage per status, and with up to 13 damage types (not counting void) makes melee with high status chance having insane jump in power (up to 1560%) So let's change it a bit.

Instead of giving you 120% per status, I'm changing it to give 150% bonus on enemy under status effect so it's no longer stacks of damage increase, just one layer of 150% bonus damage

Pretty harsh, but I believe it helps narrowing the gap in balance

Nerf CO into a 150% base damage which is effectively worse than PPP by 15%?

So glad you're not in charge of WF balance.

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1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

Way to miss the point. 
CO functions ALONE. You put that single mod in and experience an insane scaling damage boost that the weapon it's installed on doesnt even have to provide the catalyst for. 
Compared to Bloodrush, which not only requires the weapon have a decent Critical percentage to start with, it also requires that you install Critical Damage mods. It also has an immediate ceiling in the form of Red Crits. 
However, Not all weapons can Red Crit even with Bloodrush. Meaning the mod has a variable improvement in maximum strength in can apply to the installed weapon. 
On top of that, in order to start seeing real benefits, you need to get your Combo up and keep it high. Meaning the bonus comes and goes unless you dedicate yourself to maintaining it high, again through the use of synergistic Combo Duration and Combo Count mods and a gameplay focus of prioritising melee.
CO on the other hand, can provide its maximum benefit on the first hit by brushing the target with a weapon like Kuva Nukor to 'prime' the victim with half a dozen Statuses. 

While Bloodrush is incredibly strong, it ISNT a standalone mod. In order for it to be strong, you need to pair it with synergistic Mods in the form of Critical Multipliers. 
CO can be placed on a weapon with 0% Status chance and still reach maximum damage on first hit.
The benefit it provides is far too high for such an infinitely small investment.

I've said it a couple of times, but things are rarely that simple in Warframe.

Consider that CO does need a priming weapon. But clearly, its output is still outrageous. But without that priming weapon, CO is arguably more balanced than Blood Rush, since unlike Blood Rush, CO's downside will come into effect. Maybe it's a bit OP despite that, but much more managebly. Simply put, CO and PPP in isolation have a decent balancing mechanism, in that PPP is better than CO until the point where the number of hits on a given enemy needed to proc enough status for CO to outperform it is less than the number of hits required for PPP to kill it. Just like Blood Rush and to a lesser extent Weeping Wounds are both weaker than regular status mods until the point where combo builds up above it.

The issue is that both have ways to entirely circumnavigate their intended balancing mechanisms, and DE have already shown no interest in either bringing them back in line or reworking those mechanisms.

That's the problem.

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2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

DE have already shown no interest in either bringing them back in line or reworking those mechanisms.

Seeing the meltdown over every single balancing attempt and riven disposition change? I guess they're tired of it. Not to mention anything to put things in line like my thread gets people worked up if not straight up stamped as "killing the game"

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4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Consider that CO does need a priming weapon. But clearly, its output is still outrageous. But without that priming weapon, CO is arguably more balanced than Blood Rush, since unlike Blood Rush, CO's downside will come into effect.

That's a bit debatable when you consider 2 status effects still makes CO better than a primed mod, and there are Melee weapons that can hit 100% status chance even without Weeping Wounds (not sure about the exact math but I'm fairly sure I have several solid weapons that can comfortably sit at 33-36ish base percent chance and get there with some 60/60s) and self-prime after a few swings.

Even then there are forced status procs on some melee stances which can also make it easy to hit power levels greater than Primed Pressure Point so if anything can survive 2 hits from a melee weapon it automatically is better even without a primer.

...Not that it really changes much about how much excessive multiplication causes melee to be frankly disturbingly low-risk overkill in most content.

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8 hours ago, Aldain said:

That's a bit debatable when you consider 2 status effects still makes CO better than a primed mod, and there are Melee weapons that can hit 100% status chance even without Weeping Wounds (not sure about the exact math but I'm fairly sure I have several solid weapons that can comfortably sit at 33-36ish base percent chance and get there with some 60/60s) and self-prime after a few swings.

Even then there are forced status procs on some melee stances which can also make it easy to hit power levels greater than Primed Pressure Point so if anything can survive 2 hits from a melee weapon it automatically is better even without a primer.

This is true, but it's not really on the same level as pre-priming with weapons, since stuff like that can be changed just be reducing the boost of CO so it takes more statuses to match up to PPP. That's a case of it mechanically working, but not numerically. The downside is still in play, it's just not doing enough.

Being able to prime everything so everything is being hit for max damage on top of all the EHP reduction of status effects from the get go is CO not mechanically working. The downside is circumnavigated, and the mod is all benefit.

8 hours ago, Aldain said:

...Not that it really changes much about how much excessive multiplication causes melee to be frankly disturbingly low-risk overkill in most content.

This part, on the other hand, remains more or less entirely true. But it's true of the whole game, Melee just still has more numbers.

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Actually Condition Overload is pretty useless for the majority of gameplay

Pretty much 99% of star chart enemies die in 1-2 hits from a regular Primed Pressure Point build

You might actually be doing less damage with condition overload in <level 60 missions

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