Ivara - Prowling + Bullet Jumping | Give us this combination back

[iHeuksal]

I don't actually get, why we got this ability combination removed. It was convenient jumping up to higher levels or into any kind of higher spotted areas, but it got "fixed", for whatever reason.

The thing is, bullet jumping is not faster than rolling/dodging forward, not even as near effective as jumping, holding RMB and rolling forward.

So, why we simply don't put it back where it belongs, hm?

[(PSN)OmegAmorbis]

It got fixed because it wasn't intended. Yeah, it was nice to have, but it was always a matter of time before they reverted it. Also, she already can get to higher spots with zip arrows.

[LagartoPunkarra]

6 hours ago, iHeuksal said:

I don't actually get, why we got this ability combination removed. It was convenient jumping up to higher levels or into any kind of higher spotted areas, but it got "fixed", for whatever reason.

The thing is, bullet jumping is not faster than rolling/dodging forward, not even as near effective as jumping, holding RMB and rolling forward.

So, why we simply don't put it back where it belongs, hm?

Easy, while Prowling you're in an inisibility state where you want to think your movements, Ivara is a frame heavily focused in stealth afterall.

Her invisibility is one of the best in the game because it can last as long as you need to, as it's bound to an energy drain and not a timer. You may argue that Loki's invisibility is better because his movement is not limited, but I find Ivara's better for full stealth a mission and Loki's to have the upper hand against enemies. Then Ash's invisibility is just too short to get stealthy with him, but it's great when surrounded.

So, in conclusion:

• If you want to go fast while invisible and use the invisibility to have an advantage against enemies, use Loki or Ash.
• If you want to full stealth a mission and you don't mind going slower, use Ivara.

[Azamagon]

Imo, Ivara should be able to do ANY movement without breaking Prowl's stealth - but all those actions are slowed down (not just her walking speed).

People saying Ivara has the best stealth are imo incorrect: There's a small timewindow after inivisbility-abilities wear off when you are still undetectable by enemies, making Ash and Loki much better for perpetual stealth, not only because you are faster and can do any type of movement during the invisibility, but also because you can also regen energy without needing Energy Orbs.

EDIT: Octavia has stealth too, yes, but even though it is technically the strongest, it's also far more tedious to activate. Not my cup of tea, personally.

[iHeuksal]

1 hour ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Easy, while Prowling you're in an inisibility state where you want to think your movements, Ivara is a frame heavily focused in stealth afterall.

Her invisibility is one of the best in the game because it can last as long as you need to, as it's bound to an energy drain and not a timer. You may argue that Loki's invisibility is better because his movement is not limited, but I find Ivara's better for full stealth a mission and Loki's to have the upper hand against enemies. Then Ash's invisibility is just too short to get stealthy with him, but it's great when surrounded.

So, in conclusion:

• If you want to go fast while invisible and use the invisibility to have an advantage against enemies, use Loki or Ash.
• If you want to full stealth a mission and you don't mind going slower, use Ivara.

Ivara has already a hefty penalty: Her movement speed has been tuned down a lot, while using Prowl.

As I've mentioned already, people are able to jump + hold RMB + dodge to bypass that penalty. Bullet jumping won't change anything what already exists, and that is the fact, that you can do that parkour action, which is way more effective than a simple bulletjump (even without prowl being active) and chaining a dodge right after.

And for the others, you cannot really compare them to each other, as Loki is more a durable invisible type with trickery abilities (CCing with radial disarm, for example, or luring enemies to a specific point), where ash is more the assassination type and less stealth (yet I use him with a great duration based build for +18s invisibility and using him even more than Loki (which is still my most used frame)) but more damage.

The other one you seemed to miss is octavia, and her invisibility is not tied to a timer per se, more to the tick you use her. Her efficiency is better than on Ivara's Prowl, as it won't consume any energy when casting her ability - as you are able to gain twice the invisibility duration within a single cast after each other - which has an effective duration of around +120s, can be refreshed nonstop (coptering around) and has e.g. in game modes like disruption an edge over every other frame with the modifier "energy vampire" and the overall eximus energy leecher types. Oh and yea, her scaling Mallet damage is beating ... literally everything in the game.

All of them, btw, can replenish energy by zenurik or anything else (even EV from Trinity). Ivara needs energy orbs (or health orbs with equilibrium, but that is a waste in slots).

Ivara needs the bullet jump, if she wants to be a good stealth with also good mobility, which doesn't mean, she needs to be fast, but she needs to be agile. A sitting duck, as she is, needs to either get a mod for higher jump heights (forgot the name, it was a sentinel mod) or simply needs an helminth ability to get to higher grounds, as her Dashwire won't do the trick, as this ability has a max angle to be attached on. There are lots of spy chambers, which are not harmonizing with her ability kit in this regards, and those tilesets may be updated to bigger rooms with higher ceilings, as many other newly updated grineer and corpus tilesets are showing.

So, yea, it is not easy to justify it by simply saying "others have XYZ, Ivara is better", as she still needs changes to her kit. Hell, even Wisp can be a better spy frame, when bunny jumping around like a maniac and using will-o-wisp, which can bypass lasers and whatnot without being noticed, teleporting around like Loki with decoy + ST ... and they still have no movement speed penalties.

 

I guess you get the point.

[NinjaZeku]

I think "just" rolling is ~fine, but I very much want at least that to actually be an option for those that don't use a dedicated Roll button.

If you have it set up so forward + tapping Crouch rolls, you will always start a slide, thus breaking Prowl, then cancel that into a Roll.

Simply disable Ivara's ability to slide during Prowl, pretty please.

[SpringRocker]

On 2021-05-29 at 10:29 AM, (PSN)OmegAmorbis said:

Also, she already can get to higher spots with zip arrows.

Zip-lines shouldn't be ignored, they're actually pretty awesome.

Not only can they be deployed to bridge an area, but you can use them as "launch pads" to throw yourself forward. I can tell you, from experience, that quick deploying zip-lines from Artemis allow you to traverse rooms much quicker than bullet jumping (once you get good). I out race just about anyone, including Wisps, in levels by using zip-lines to launch myself as I'm moving around.

Back to the point of bullet jumping, it was never really intended, just the fact that you used to be able depending on if you were the host or not show make that obvious.

 

On 2021-05-29 at 12:22 PM, ElecDeathblade said:

Her invisibility is one of the best in the game because it can last as long as you need to

No, if you're saying that her invis is the best because you can be just sitting with Ivara permanently Invisible, then you should learn how other frames work and use those instead. Ivara offers utility, damage, flexibility. Even her prowl ability boosts damage. I don't want to say that people who think that you need to max efficiency, duration, and low strength are wrong when playing Ivara... But the people that set her up like that don't really know what her abilities are and how they work; they only think that not having to press a button makes her worth playing.

If all you want is to stay invis then go Octavia or Loki.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-05-29 at 10:59 PM, iHeuksal said:

The other one you seemed to miss is octavia

 

On 2021-05-31 at 8:42 PM, SpringRocker said:

f all you want is to stay invis then go Octavia

I forgot that broken music frame existed lol

[Pacheon]

Ivara should get the bullet jumping back. There are way more options to fast spin even while being invisible / in prowl. Some of them are buggy and in this game since her release.

The bullet jumping mechanic won't make her overkill or OP. If people wanna go fast - use your operator. There is nothing faster in a burst speed than a x5 - x6 void dash with zenurik on top for energy recovery.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Prowl wasn't the worst stealth in the game.. until Wukong got his fart cloud (technically considered a stealth ability at the time) reworked. Now it is, for purposes beyond going AFK.

 

Other stealth abilities can be sustained indefinitely with no outside influence, from only one Energy Siphon, if built accordingly. Of course, you don't have to build that hard into it, but you can.

For the price of one mod, Loki and Ash can also absolve their minor window of possible-vulnerability. Or just eye the timer and go into a corner. Or run Vazarin, and prot-dash through yourself when it's time to renew, if built to not need ZenDash.

Meanwhile Octavia has infinite uptime and self-sufficiency, for the price of... teabags.

 

Ivara requires interacting with enemies, requires those enemies to be capable of dropping Energy Orbs and for RNG not to deny that, and requires Arcane Energise just for upkeep purposes. Almost requires Flow to compensate the Orb-drop RNG factor or risk being exposed on a string of bad luck anyway.

"But the pickpocket!" - the worst looting ability in the game, tacked on barely-relevant to the worst stealth ability. Which the others don't need to accommodate (Narrow Minded is begging for the tether to break before it actually triggers). Which also has a pure malus stat scaling just artificially causing failures, unlike pretty much every other ability which has at least some room for gain or is affected by neither positive nor negative.

 

And that's just the raw standing-around sustainability. We also have to factor in:

• Extra drain costs because you're moving, despite spending more time covering ground because you're crippled for no justified reason
• Extra flat costs because you tried to melee enemies to capitalise on stealth bonus or even performing Finishers despite the latter being a core tool from Sleep Arrows.
• Extra flat costs because you took hits, despite crossfire being just as lethal to Ivara as other stealthy frames, and despite the crippling causing your potential-threat reactions to be less fluid.

And then we have a BONUS PRIZE: Order now and you - only you, Ivara - will be visibly revealed when using noisy weapons, despite:

• Being as squishy as the rest
• Having the on-damaged energy penalty the rest do not have
• Sound prompts already being more than enough to draw threat of fire from enemies (to a greater or lesser conditional extent depending on the enemy in question)

Don't like it? Take an obligatory weapon restriction or mod slot penalty the others still do not have. 
What? An augment like precious little Loki? No, no. We're going to blow your augment on something equal parts unnecessary and insulting to you by giving you a crutch for the bloody stumps remaining of the legs we amputated. 
It fits nicely alongside the other one that actively hinders you unless you satisfy extra conditions.

 

I could go on. I have before.

Ivara deserves more than just bullet jumping in Prowl again. But it would be a nice gesture of goodwill in advance of a proper revisit to take all the needless detriments out of her kit.

_{Oh, and if we could get an actual theme-appropriate skin for her Prime that isn't now just a bootleg-Prime for our impending new frame, that would be grand. Tree jellyfish indeed.}

[Andele3025]

One can argue about cost and benefit of each stealth ability but in the end it doesnt matter.
Prowl Bullet Jumping was a cool small skill step one could employ to improve her gameloop and a almost risk as failing at the tiny bit of skill and patience to execute it was the potential for detection and recast cost, on that merit alone it should come back.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-05-29 at 3:07 PM, iHeuksal said:

The thing is, bullet jumping is not faster than rolling/dodging forward, not even as near effective as jumping, holding RMB and rolling forward.

It is if you have the Right Combination of Equipment....

The Trick is to have one source of Parkour Velocity in one Category Each....

1 as an Arcane (Consequence/Agility)

1 or 2 as Weapons (Telos Boltace plus any Weapon Truth Compatible Weapon)

1 as a Mod (Any of the Bullet Jump Mods, the Aim Glide Mod also has a strange Side Effect of Retaining Forward Momentum)....

And there's probably another one I can't think of right now.... I'm not up to date on all sources of Parkour Velocity.... But depending on the Tileset you can keep up with Speedy boy Volt just by Bullet Jumping....

On 2021-05-29 at 7:29 PM, (PSN)OmegAmorbis said:

It got fixed because it wasn't intended. Yeah, it was nice to have, but it was always a matter of time before they reverted it. Also, she already can get to higher spots with zip arrows.

And that's where I have problem because Dashwire is seriously Finnicky to use as a Substitute for Bullet Jumping....

1) It doesn't have an Indicator that tells you which Surfaces are Dashwire Compatible.

2) Its got an Angle and a Range Limit meaning you can use it in every situation where a bullet Jump would still work....

3) IT.... IS SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.... No seriously.... Here's how Slow it is.... You first have to Cycle to the Correct Arrow.... Then Hold the Button to Fire It instead of tapping (you can invert this but that merely inverts the Order of the same problem)... Then Ivara has to play out a Drawing and Firing Animation for the Arrow.... Then the Arrow must Physical Travel to the Targeted Surface... Then the wire itself must also then travel and attach to the other surface on the Other End and only when that Process is complete will the Dashwire Finally Appear.... All this on top of the fact that Dashwire is one of those Abilities that isn't Client Side (like Mirage's Shadow Clones) and that just makes Dashwire even more Inconsistent than it already is....

Dashwire can also be Nullified by.... Well... All Nullifying Effects...

I'm going to level with you.... Although I was pissed off when Prowl got Nerfed I don't want this Change to be reverted.... I just want Dashwire to be More Responsive, Clear and Consistent.... 

I just want Ivara's Gameplay to fit her Theme... And Dashwire is large part of that Appeal. 

BTW....

For anyone who doesn't know .... Ivara can Sprint while she's on a Dashwire.... And supposedly she does so faster than any other Warframe.... But more than that... It's the only instance where she doesn't De-Cloak....

 

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, ElecDeathblade said:

Easy, while Prowling you're in an inisibility state where you want to think your movements, Ivara is a frame heavily focused in stealth afterall.

Is she ?

Only Prowl and her Passive play into this Stealth Theme....oh and Noise Arrow but that's basically a dead ability which is why I almost forgot it.

The Rest of Ivara's Tool Kit and her Leverian give the Impression that Ivara is The Queen Of The Hunt... Not the Queen Of Stolen Museum Artifacts....

Given she has multiple sources Damage Multipliers this puts her in a similar Sub Category as Ash.... Both their Themes and Kits are Centred around avoiding Detection as a means of Assassinating $@$#.. Not as a means of Well.... Not being Detected.... Even if Ivara is good at it....

This is essentially why it doesn't bother me that Prowl isn't as Fast as Octavia's Nocturn or Loki's Invisibility.... I mean.... Ever since I got The Delux Skin I literally don't even use Prowl anymore.... I survive by Hopping on a Dashwire and using Wisp Specters' as Aggro Deflectors....

You can delete Prowl as far as I'm concerned.... The only thing Il miss from it is the Ability to Pick Pocket specific Enemies with it. Not having it wouldn't hurt her Theme all that much..... It would destroy her Survivability though 😝 !!!

On 2021-05-30 at 9:08 AM, NinjaZeku said:

I think "just" rolling is ~fine, but I very much want at least that to actually be an option for those that don't use a dedicated Roll button.

Really ?

Some people don't Bind the Roll Button ? 😳

On 2021-05-30 at 9:08 AM, NinjaZeku said:

 

If you have it set up so forward + tapping Crouch rolls, you will always start a slide, thus breaking Prowl, then cancel that into a Roll.

Oh yeah... Now I see what you mean 😁 !!!

There was actually a bug a while back that Broke Rolling for about a week.... Tapping the Button would make roll and thus playing Octavia became alil Trickier because Mashing Crouch caused her to Roll I instead just momentarily Crouching. 

On 2021-05-31 at 8:42 PM, SpringRocker said:

Zip-lines shouldn't be ignored, they're actually pretty awesome.

Indeed they are.... When they work....

That's why I want them to work better....

On 2021-06-04 at 1:50 AM, Pacheon said:

The bullet jumping mechanic won't make her overkill or OP. If people wanna go fast - use your operator. There is nothing faster in a burst speed than a x5 - x6 void dash with zenurik on top for energy recovery.

LoL.... I totally forgot you could use Transference while Prowl was Active....

Speaking of which.... Did they ever fix that Visual Bug where Transfering Back into a Prowled Ivara Warframe made you appear Visible on your end but still invisible to Enemies and Team Mates ?

On 2021-06-04 at 8:45 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Meanwhile Octavia has infinite uptime and self-sufficiency, for the price of... teabags.

To be fair.... That price is actually steep enough that some people actually don't bother with her despite how Over Powered she is.

 

 

 

[(PSN)OmegAmorbis]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

1) It doesn't have an Indicator that tells you which Surfaces are Dashwire Compatible.

This is something I'd like to see. I don't feel like it gets in my way too often, but it is a pain whenever it comes up.

 

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

3) IT.... IS SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW....

Fyi, if you have Artemis bow active you can press R3 (not sure of the input on PC) to cast a selected arrow instantly, instead of having to hold the button. You do still have to wait for travel time, but it makes a big difference all the same. Hopefully I didn't just tell you something you already knew, lol.

 

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

To be fair.... That price is actually steep enough that some people actually don't bother with her despite how Over Powered she is.

I'm definitely one of those people, and quite honestly I don't think Octavia has any business having stealth in her kit, not with everything else she has going for her.

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, (PSN)OmegAmorbis said:

Fyi, if you have Artemis bow active you can press R3 (not sure of the input on PC) to cast a selected arrow instantly, instead of having to hold the button. You do still have to wait for travel time, but it makes a big difference all the same. Hopefully I didn't just tell you something you already knew, lol.

Sort of... I knew but I also forgot since I find Artemis Bow underwhelming.... Less than I used to since you can still use other weapons while your Exhalted Weapon is active....

What bugs me is that DE went through the Effort of Coding Valkyr's claws so that not not having them actively equiped doesn't continue to make you Invulnerable but the Channeling Drain and all its Intricacies (such as not being able to Absorb Energy) remain whether they are Equiped or Not.... 

Feels like a Spitefull Double Standard... 😠.

 

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-06-15 at 4:52 AM, Lutesque said:

The Rest of Ivara's Tool Kit and her Leverian give the Impression that Ivara is The Queen Of The Hunt... Not the Queen Of Stolen Museum Artifacts....

You never seen someone or something hunting? They approach with stealth and attack when they're sure that the attack will kill the prey successfully. So invalidating her being stealth focused like that isn't really smart.

On 2021-06-15 at 4:52 AM, Lutesque said:

Only Prowl and her Passive play into this Stealth Theme....oh and Noise Arrow but that's basically a dead ability which is why I almost forgot it.

Ok, let's see:

• Passive: A 20 meters radar to see where the near enemies are. Stealth.
• Cloak Quiver: Creates an are that Ivara and her allies can become invisible. Stealth.
• Dashwire Quiver: Creates a dashwire, combining well with Prowl so she can climb to places without having to exit her invisibility. Stealth.
• Noise Quiver: Distracts enemies. Stealth.
• Sleep Quiver: Puts enemies to sleep. Stealth.
• Navigator: Ivara can control a projectile. Isn't an ability that it's stealthy in itself, but works the best when the enemies doesn't know where she is. (I still think that putting a helminth ability in this slot is the smartest option, even if this removes one of her damage multipliers controlling a projectile isn't that useful really, at least in my opinion)
• Prowl: Her main invisibility, can loot enemies nearby and her augment makes alarms to not trigger when she passes though them. Stealthy as #*!%.
• Artemis Bow: This bow by default isn't the best at stealth, but with its augment you have extra crit chance and an explosion when landing a headshot, and headshots with Ivara are excessively easy with Sleep Quiver, and that's why you want your Ivara to have 100% Strength at minimum. Not 100% stealth, but works in stealth.

So I call your statement BS.

On 2021-06-15 at 4:52 AM, Lutesque said:

You can delete Prowl as far as I'm concerned.... The only thing Il miss from it is the Ability to Pick Pocket specific Enemies with it. Not having it wouldn't hurt her Theme all that much..... It would destroy her Survivability though 😝 !!!

I wouldn't remove Prowl, Ivara is pretty squishy so not having a reliable way of escaping from enemies isn't the best idea. And by how you appear to not remember Cloak Quiver, more so. But hey, it's your build, I have a Frost without his snowglobe.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Monkey is a superior SPY frame that doesn't even need an augment to bypass lasers. A fastest SPY/Capture/Sabotage frame. Imo Ivara has no super extra advantages to be punnised so much in her Prowl:
1. movement restrictions (no slide, sprint, bullet jump)
2. energy drain = most energy regens blocked
3. damage received drains energy (would be ok if it stopped damage at least, but it it goes away together with shields and health for some reason)

I'd leave only energy drain and make Pick-Pocket only work if she is crawling (hold duck) and remove walking from the game entirely.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Ok, let's see:

• Passive: A 20 meters radar to see where the near enemies are. Stealth.
• Cloak Quiver: Creates an are that Ivara and her allies can become invisible. Stealth.
• Dashwire Quiver: Creates a dashwire, combining well with Prowl so she can climb to places without having to exit her invisibility. Stealth.
• Noise Quiver: Distracts enemies. Stealth.
• Sleep Quiver: Puts enemies to sleep. Stealth.
• Navigator: Ivara can control a projectile. Isn't an ability that it's stealthy in itself, but works the best when the enemies doesn't know where she is. (I still think that putting a helminth ability in this slot is the smartest option, even if this removes one of her damage multipliers controlling a projectile isn't that useful really, at least in my opinion)
• Prowl: Her main invisibility, can loot enemies nearby and her augment makes alarms to not trigger when she passes though them. Stealthy as #*!%.
• Artemis Bow: This bow by default isn't the best at stealth, but with its augment you have extra crit chance and an explosion when landing a headshot, and headshots with Ivara are excessively easy with Sleep Quiver, and that's why you want your Ivara to have 100% Strength at minimum. Not 100% stealth, but works in stealth.

Let's not be too over-reaching. Ivara is stealth-oriented, but there's no need to proverbially gild the lily.

• Enemy radar is just as functional when stealth is broken. It's very useful to know where enemies are when they're actively going to attack.
• Cloak is stealth, yes.
• Dashwire "combining well with Prowl" is disingenuous, when Prowl just shouldn't have the mobility restrictions in the first place - it's a poor band-aid to the crippling. Generic positioning utility at best, not inherently stealth.
• Noise requires stealth, assists working within it.
• Sleep is arguably more functional in stopping aggressive enemies than it is in helping you stay stealthy, since you have active invisibility. Only stealth-relevance is making stealth affinity multiplier more reliable.
• Navigator is.. ambiguously stealthy. Half a point in the stealth column, but probably the invisibility Ivara gets is more by sheer necessity of not giving free invulnerability but not making her a sitting duck with all player input elsewhere.
• Prowl is.. stealth, even if it is the worst in the game.
• Artemis Bow has no more than tangential association with stealth merely because it is a silent-firing weapon, and the less said about its self-nerfing augment the better.

Stealth is her primary survival mechanism due to mediocre natural stats, no active protection (DR/regenerative effects), small-ranged control and fairly limited offensive potential (compared to true room-wiping kits). But that just makes it all the more indefensible that Prowl is such hot garbage.

1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

remove walking from the game entirely.

Or remove sprinting from the game entirely. Parkour is faster anyway, leaving walking-pace for whenever you might need to be steadier and finer-aiming, and not interrupting your shooting.

[LagartoPunkarra]

6 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Let's not be too over-reaching. Ivara is stealth-oriented, but there's no need to proverbially gild the lily.

• Enemy radar is just as functional when stealth is broken. It's very useful to know where enemies are when they're actively going to attack.
• Cloak is stealth, yes.
• Dashwire "combining well with Prowl" is disingenuous, when Prowl just shouldn't have the mobility restrictions in the first place - it's a poor band-aid to the crippling. Generic positioning utility at best, not inherently stealth.
• Noise requires stealth, assists working within it.
• Sleep is arguably more functional in stopping aggressive enemies than it is in helping you stay stealthy, since you have active invisibility. Only stealth-relevance is making stealth affinity multiplier more reliable.
• Navigator is.. ambiguously stealthy. Half a point in the stealth column, but probably the invisibility Ivara gets is more by sheer necessity of not giving free invulnerability but not making her a sitting duck with all player input elsewhere.
• Prowl is.. stealth, even if it is the worst in the game.
• Artemis Bow has no more than tangential association with stealth merely because it is a silent-firing weapon, and the less said about its self-nerfing augment the better.

Stealth is her primary survival mechanism due to mediocre natural stats, no active protection (DR/regenerative effects), small-ranged control and fairly limited offensive potential (compared to true room-wiping kits). But that just makes it all the more indefensible that Prowl is such hot garbage.

We agree do disagree then. I think Prowl isn't hot garbage, I find it better than Ash's invisibility and the 100% extra loot is nice.

Yes, the abilities can be used out of stealth, but still, she's supposed to be stealthy, like a hunter stalking a prey, she's best at approaching calmly and without anyone noticing to do her kills. She's not made to nuke a room and I enjoy doing some missions solo with her and have a more calm mission instead of the adrenaline rush that all the other warframes give.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

We agree do disagree then. I think Prowl isn't hot garbage, I find it better than Ash's invisibility and the 100% extra loot is nice.

I'm happy for you that you can tolerate it, but really it's not even a matter of opinions. Objectively, it's worse as a stealth in every regard besides being able to AFK while perfectly-consistently invisible longer (not counting Octavia with an automatic re-cast and teabagging macro.) Even Wisp's passive is a better functional invisibility as long as you can actively play 'the floor is lava'.

If Ivara could attach Cloak Arrows to herself, even that would be far superior to Prowl. Unfortunately, you can't self-stick it even via Navigator, as far as I can tell; Nav making you invis makes it difficult to be totally accurate but I'm pretty sure.

You can use the other active stealth abilities at whatever pace you like. Nobody's saying they enjoy a relaxing walk through the woods only if and because they have weights shackled to their ankles physically preventing them from picking up the pace beyond a walk instead.

[Azamagon]

7 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

• Navigator: Ivara can control a projectile. Isn't an ability that it's stealthy in itself, but works the best when the enemies doesn't know where she is. (I still think that putting a helminth ability in this slot is the smartest option, even if this removes one of her damage multipliers controlling a projectile isn't that useful really, at least in my opinion)

 

• Artemis Bow: This bow by default isn't the best at stealth, but with its augment you have extra crit chance and an explosion when landing a headshot, and headshots with Ivara are excessively easy with Sleep Quiver, and that's why you want your Ivara to have 100% Strength at minimum. Not 100% stealth, but works in stealth.

 

Just wanna point out 2 things here:

Navigator makes Ivara invisible while it's active, even if you're not using Prowl. So... stealth.

Artemis Bow is silent. So... stealth-related :D

[LagartoPunkarra]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Navigator makes Ivara invisible while it's active, even if you're not using Prowl. So... stealth.

Really? I didn't knew. Still, that's the slot that I use for Helminth abilities, it's not that fun of an ability for me

[Azamagon]

44 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Really? I didn't knew. Still, that's the slot that I use for Helminth abilities, it's not that fun of an ability for me

Same.

Navigator is a really situational skill, while many Helminth abilities are generally useful.

[Lutesque]

11 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

You never seen someone or something hunting? They approach with stealth and attack when they're sure that the attack will kill the prey successfully. So invalidating her being stealth focused like that isn't really smart.

I wasn't invalidating Anything.... I was clarifying a subtle but very important Distinction. 

Ivara and Ash only use stealth as a means to an end where else with Loki being Stealthy is the end Goal. 

12 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

 

• Passive: A 20 meters radar to see where the near enemies are. Stealth.
• Cloak Quiver: Creates an are that Ivara and her allies can become invisible. Stealth.
• Dashwire Quiver: Creates a dashwire, combining well with Prowl so she can climb to places without having to exit her invisibility. Stealth.
• Noise Quiver: Distracts enemies. Stealth.
• Sleep Quiver: Puts enemies to sleep. Stealth.
• Navigator: Ivara can control a projectile. Isn't an ability that it's stealthy in itself, but works the best when the enemies doesn't know where she is. (I still think that putting a helminth ability in this slot is the smartest option, even if this removes one of her damage multipliers controlling a projectile isn't that useful really, at least in my opinion)
• Prowl: Her main invisibility, can loot enemies nearby and her augment makes alarms to not trigger when she passes though them. Stealthy as #*!%.
• Artemis Bow: This bow by default isn't the best at stealth, but with its augment you have extra crit chance and an explosion when landing a headshot, and headshots with Ivara are excessively easy with Sleep Quiver, and that's why you want your Ivara to have 100% Strength at minimum. Not 100% stealth, but works in stealth.

So I call your statement BS.

And yet Limbo and Octavia are far Better at Avoiding Detection than Ivara is: 😝. Infact they achieve that feat using Significantly fewer Abilities.... 

Call it BS all you want.... Ivara being classified strictly as a Stealth frame is Laughable.... It's technically true but practically pointless. 

I'd even say Saryn is a better Stealth Frame since you have essentially avoided Detection by Murdering all the witness through walls.... Which is far more efficient than Limping around everywhere with Ivara.

12 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

I wouldn't remove Prowl, Ivara is pretty squishy so not having a reliable way of escaping from enemies isn't the best idea. And by how you appear to not remember Cloak Quiver, more so. But hey, it's your build, I have a Frost without his snowglobe.

Il do you one better.... I would Remove all forms of Invisibility all together... And not just in Warframe either.... In every stealth game that has and will ever exist....

Being invisible in any game is just so extremely underwhelming and clearly shows there's a flaw in either the Level Design or the AI that they need to resort to such extreme measures to avoid Detection. I hate Invisibility.... 

Also I didn't forget Cloak.... In case you haven't noticed.... We hate Prowl because of the Restricted Movement.... Cloak is essentially Prowl after it's been Knee Capped by a lone shark's enforcer.... If you feel the need to Distinguish it as a seperate ability then you do you.... I won't.... Il use it.... But to me Cloak is just Stationery Prowl....

9 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Monkey is a superior SPY frame that doesn't even need an augment to bypass lasers. A fastest SPY/Capture/Sabotage frame. Imo Ivara has no super extra advantages to be punnised so much in her Prowl:

I mean.... Doesn't she ?

Out of all the Other "Stealth" Frames Ivara is the only one who has an additional Damage Multiplier on each of her Abilities of Some Kind on top of being invisible....

The Quiver has the Augment, Navigator Scales in Damage the more energy it drains, Prowl increases Headshot Damage I believe... Specifically.... I don't remember.... And And Artemis Bow has the Augment.... Which makes it worse in some People's Oppinion (removes Multishot).

One could make the Argument that Because Ivara has these things and Loki does not then it's okay to Break her legs....

Until you discover that Ash also has additional sources of Damage too and Octavia has infinite Scaling.... 😝 !!!  Oh DE... Why are you so Inconsistent 😝 !!!!

9 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

 

I'd leave only energy drain and make Pick-Pocket only work if she is crawling (hold duck) and remove walking from the game entirely.

I played Mark of The Ninja SE with the Developer Commentary on and the lead programmer wrote that they actually did this.... The had walking during the early version of the game but since it was functionally identical to sneaking except taller they just removed it.... Which made the controls less convoluted and the game play much better....

Why don't we see more of these Design Decisions ? 🤔

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

• Enemy radar is just as functional when stealth is broken. It's very useful to know where enemies are when they're actively going to attack.
• Cloak is stealth, yes.
• Dashwire "combining well with Prowl" is disingenuous, when Prowl just shouldn't have the mobility restrictions in the first place - it's a poor band-aid to the crippling. Generic positioning utility at best, not inherently stealth.
• Noise requires stealth, assists working within it.
• Sleep is arguably more functional in stopping aggressive enemies than it is in helping you stay stealthy, since you have active invisibility. Only stealth-relevance is making stealth affinity multiplier more reliable.
• Navigator is.. ambiguously stealthy. Half a point in the stealth column, but probably the invisibility Ivara gets is more by sheer necessity of not giving free invulnerability but not making her a sitting duck with all player input elsewhere.
• Prowl is.. stealth, even if it is the worst in the game.
• Artemis Bow has no more than tangential association with stealth merely because it is a silent-firing weapon, and the less said about its self-nerfing augment the better.

I was about to list 3 of these points aswell for the same reason but I'm just lazy and I feel like it's pretty easy to understand what Ivara's actual theme is.... I mean the Ivara Prime Description literally spells it out.... If others don't agree then... Meh.... No point trying to convince them.... 

7 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

We agree do disagree then. I think Prowl isn't hot garbage, I find it better than Ash's invisibility and the 100% extra loot is nice.

Is it ? 

I mean it would be but the problem is all the enemies where we would want to abuse the Pick Pocket feature have been Special Case Coded by DE not to Allow Pick Pocketing....

As an Owner of her Delux Skin... I honestly wouldn't miss Prowl.... Il be the only Ivara bleeding out on the floor and looking good while doing it too 😁 !!!

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Navigator makes Ivara invisible while it's active, even if you're not using Prowl. So... stealth.

 

3 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Really? I didn't knew. Still, that's the slot that I use for Helminth abilities, it's not that fun of an ability for me

You didn't notice that when you're piloting projectiles with Navigator... Ivara suddenly becomes difficult to find ?

BTW you can also turn on Navigator After launching whatever Projectile it is wanted to use instead of enabling Navigator before firing.

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Same.

Navigator is a really situational skill, while many Helminth abilities are generally useful.

I suppose it is.... However I actually use it quite alot since I use a loadout specifically designed to take advantage of it (Zenistar, Fulmin etc).... Navigator deals more Damage than Artemis Bow ...... However it also costs more Energy too.... I mean you can lower the cost but that lowers the damage too..... It doesn't scale based on how long you use it... It scales based in how much energy it expends while its active.... Lowering both your Duration and Efficiency allows you to reach that cap faster.... From there it's just a matter of figuring out how you're gonna get your energy and what weapon best works with Navigator's Characteristics.

 

[LagartoPunkarra]

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I'd even say Saryn is a better Stealth Frame since you have essentially avoided Detection by Murdering all the witness through walls.... Which is far more efficient than Limping around everywhere with Ivara.

Are you baiting us, are you?

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Are you baiting us, are you?

Nope....

You know that Nightwave challenge that requires you to Complete a mission without Setting off any alarms at all.... Yeah I did that one with Saryn and Equinox....

Murdering Witnesses is just another form of Stealth 😝 !!!