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Why Does Lavos 4 Have Such a Limited Height Range?


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One of my biggest griefs with the awesome concept that Lavos is is that his 4th ability has such a limited height. It won't even hit enemies 5m below or above it. The idea is that the drones drop gas out as they travel. Why does said gas not affect EVERYTHING below it. Gas like that should drop a long distance before dissipating. I should be able to jump above the battlefield and hit everything with a DENSE mist that falls onto them. It seems so inconsistent that it only affects things on the level it is cast. 

Some other problems that are there is that we should be able to toggle elements until changed with a different button. It would remove clunkiness. Another thing is that vial rush stops us from sprinting after the rush. We have to then toggle it on again. 

I LOVE Lavos so much. He's such a cool idea. I really want him to be made very user friendly and logical. There's a lot of good feedback in the Lavos megathread that has been ignored thus far. Please listen to that feedback. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree that this limitation on his ultimate is boring as hell. Even on a mission as trivial as Hydron, you have to position yourself on the top of the fence of the lower level to hit enemies effectively, which is ridiculous.

Especially when we have Nova or Saryn AoEs in the game.

If only the ultimate of Lavos was creating a lingering cloud... but no.

 

Most people are hysterical about this power because it has a very high potential DPS - if you set up a complex strategy of multiple statuses before casting it - but honestly I would easily trade some of this DPS for ease of use and more reliable crowd control.

Edited by Yaerion
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It has limited height because it has 100% piercing. It travels through all objects/enemies. If the vertical damage capabilities were increased (say 2x) then the ability would be far too powerful for how easy it is to use. 

As it is the ability is pretty much a delete-button for most enemies in regular gameplay. Steel path corpus/grineer might survive a bit but generally the thing's damage scaling makes it very useful.

If you aren't finding it useful then I suggest practicing and/or learning the playstyle a bit more. It works fine as is. Prior to the buff it received there was a major issue with its vertical height but the current state of the ability works just fine. 5m above and below the probe is reasonable IMO. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

It has limited height because it has 100% piercing. It travels through all objects/enemies. If the vertical damage capabilities were increased (say 2x) then the ability would be far too powerful for how easy it is to use. 

As it is the ability is pretty much a delete-button for most enemies in regular gameplay. Steel path corpus/grineer might survive a bit but generally the thing's damage scaling makes it very useful.

If you aren't finding it useful then I suggest practicing and/or learning the playstyle a bit more. It works fine as is. Prior to the buff it received there was a major issue with its vertical height but the current state of the ability works just fine. 5m above and below the probe is reasonable IMO. 

It doesn't hit 5 meters. Explain how a mist doesn't fall. It'd be too OP? Equinox? Saryn? Etc all go through walls. 

Too powerful with more height for ease of use? Saryn hits one button and wins. Lavos has to wait to do infinitely less damage than her. Your "get good" logic gets completely shut down by the fact these kinds of frames exist already. Giving his 4th (which can't be spammed with the kind of damage other frames can create) more impact wouldn't be OP. Do you consider Equinox, Saryn, Banshee, etc OP?

Saying it should be weaker bc it goes through walls is absurd considering how many warframe abilities go through walls that do way more damage than Lavos. Even Garuda 4 and 1 goes through walls without a height limit beyond the base range. This would literally be quality of life considering how often terrain level changes on many tilesets. Using Lavos on many tiles SUCKS because his 4 doesn't hit much due to terrain shifts. In a game revolving around moving and adapting, this ability is pretty bad. Having the ability hit everything below it would reward the player for using Mobility, AND it would make players have a more fun time by not having to time when you use the 4 while aim gliding to use it most effectively. 

Lastly, where is Saryn's 4 height limit? The ability that I can spam. 

What of the other QoL suggestions?

Edited by (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1
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1 hour ago, Yaerion said:

I agree that this limitation on his ultimate is boring as hell. Even on a mission as trivial as Hydron, you have to position yourself on the top of a fence to hit enemies effectively, which is ridiculous.

Especially when we have Nova or Saryn AoEs in the game.

If only the ultimate of Lavos was creating a lingering cloud... but no.

 

Most people are hysterical about this power because it has a very high potential DPS - if you set up a complex strategy of multiple statuses before casting it - but honestly I would easily trade some of this DPS for ease of use and more reliable crowd control.

Agree 

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52 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Lastly, where is Saryn's 4 height limit? The ability that I can spam. 

Do note that Saryn is under the shadow of the nerf hammer and she can get squashed every time due to how very “uncooperative”, cheesy, and braindead she is. Lavos on the other hand is safe because of the limitations.

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4 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Do note that Saryn is under the shadow of the nerf hammer and she can get squashed every time due to how very “uncooperative”, cheesy, and braindead she is. Lavos on the other hand is safe because of the limitations.

He's safe either way bc he is cooldown based. A few QoL changes wouldn't push him over the edge... especially in the shadow of Saryn, Khora, etc. 

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30 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Do note that Saryn is under the shadow of the nerf hammer and she can get squashed every time due to how very “uncooperative”, cheesy, and braindead she is. Lavos on the other hand is safe because of the limitations.

Not to mention saryn's 4 is exceptionally less powerful than lavos's 4.

They are different abilities with different capabilities. I dont think it is really very useful to compare the two. Outside of them both bypassing line of sight they dont really function similarly.

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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Not to mention saryn's 4 is exceptionally less powerful than lavos's 4.

They are different abilities with different capabilities. I dont think it is really very useful to compare the two. Outside of them both bypassing line of sight they dont really function similarly.

Oh? Then how come I don't see Lavos nuking maps in ESO? I see Saryn do it all the time. We're comparing damage capabilities of two AoE abilities that both go through walls. Of course they don't function exactly the same, hence why I'm comparing them to show you it wouldn't be absurd for Lavos to have some height increase. You have still yet to explain how that mist ISN'T falling downward further than 3-4 meters.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Oh? Then how come I don't see Lavos nuking maps in ESO? I see Saryn do it all the time. We're comparing damage capabilities of two AoE abilities that both go through walls. Of course they don't function exactly the same, hence why I'm comparing them to show you it wouldn't be absurd for Lavos to have some height increase. You have still yet to explain how that mist ISN'T falling downward further than 3-4 meters.

It's the only piece of content where Saryn provides a greater value over other frames. I don't see that as OP. It's niche. Also Saryn's 4 is incredibly less powerful on its own. It's good with a decent spread of spores to amplify the damage, but ultimately it'll also kill enemies too fast so your spore stack drops. Meh.

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3 hours ago, Wolfchild07 said:

I enjoyed his theme and aesthetics for quite a while after he released, but stopped playing him due to so much micromanagement. Sprint toggling off, reselecting elements.

Same for me. I cannot play him for an extended amount of time due to carpal tunnel. I play him sometimes. It can be pretty fun if you can get around the cooldowns a bit.

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2 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Same for me. I cannot play him for an extended amount of time due to carpal tunnel. I play him sometimes. It can be pretty fun if you can get around the cooldowns a bit.

Same issue here.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

It's the only piece of content where Saryn provides a greater value over other frames. I don't see that as OP. It's niche. Also Saryn's 4 is incredibly less powerful on its own. It's good with a decent spread of spores to amplify the damage, but ultimately it'll also kill enemies too fast so your spore stack drops. Meh.

Her combo isn't OP. That's my point. It does infinitely more DPS than Lavos 4 but he still has a height limit of 3 to 4 meters. She doesn't. How would giving him this QoL be OP? It would solve frustration with the amount of terrain shifts in the game.

Edited by (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1
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4 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Same for me. I cannot play him for an extended amount of time due to carpal tunnel. I play him sometimes. It can be pretty fun if you can get around the cooldowns a bit.

 

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Same issue here.

 

7 hours ago, Wolfchild07 said:

I enjoyed his theme and aesthetics for quite a while after he released, but stopped playing him due to so much micromanagement. Sprint toggling off, reselecting elements.

Hence why these other QoL changes also need to go through. I agree. There's a bunch of feedback in the megathread for this kind of stuff being ignored. 

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One of the main issues I take with Lavos is that his kit feels largely designed to work on a 2D plane in a 3D game: the cone on Ophidian Bite cannot be aimed up or down, Vial Rush is just a lateral dash that can't really carry him vertically, Transmutation Probe drags across the ground and falls down pits, and Catalyze only affects enemies in a thin disc. This is one of the reasons why playing him felt awkward and out of place in Warframe, and I think these restrictions are kind of pointless when they could easily be lifted. With regards to Catalyze specifically, the ability should apply in a sphere, not a disc, and then more improvements could be made to the rest of his kit as well (e.g. make Ophidian Bite one-handed and let Lavos aim the cone, let Vial Rush give a burst of momentum instead of railroading Lavos into a ground-bound direction, let Transmutation Probe float, etc.).

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

One of the main issues I take with Lavos is that his kit feels largely designed to work on a 2D plane in a 3D game: the cone on Ophidian Bite cannot be aimed up or down, Vial Rush is just a lateral dash that can't really carry him vertically, Transmutation Probe drags across the ground and falls down pits, and Catalyze only affects enemies in a thin disc. This is one of the reasons why playing him felt awkward and out of place in Warframe, and I think these restrictions are kind of pointless when they could easily be lifted. With regards to Catalyze specifically, the ability should apply in a sphere, not a disc, and then more improvements could be made to the rest of his kit as well (e.g. make Ophidian Bite one-handed and let Lavos aim the cone, let Vial Rush give a burst of momentum instead of railroading Lavos into a ground-bound direction, let Transmutation Probe float, etc.).

YES. And don't stop vial rush if I so much as tap a wall. 

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On 2021-05-30 at 3:26 AM, Leqesai said:

It has limited height because it has 100% piercing. It travels through all objects/enemies. If the vertical damage capabilities were increased (say 2x) then the ability would be far too powerful for how easy it is to use. 

As it is the ability is pretty much a delete-button for most enemies in regular gameplay. Steel path corpus/grineer might survive a bit but generally the thing's damage scaling makes it very useful.

If you aren't finding it useful then I suggest practicing and/or learning the playstyle a bit more. It works fine as is. Prior to the buff it received there was a major issue with its vertical height but the current state of the ability works just fine. 5m above and below the probe is reasonable IMO. 

Molecular prime also goes through walls and has a better vertical reach.

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4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

One of the main issues I take with Lavos is that his kit feels largely designed to work on a 2D plane in a 3D game: the cone on Ophidian Bite cannot be aimed up or down, Vial Rush is just a lateral dash that can't really carry him vertically, Transmutation Probe drags across the ground and falls down pits, and Catalyze only affects enemies in a thin disc. This is one of the reasons why playing him felt awkward and out of place in Warframe, and I think these restrictions are kind of pointless when they could easily be lifted. With regards to Catalyze specifically, the ability should apply in a sphere, not a disc, and then more improvements could be made to the rest of his kit as well (e.g. make Ophidian Bite one-handed and let Lavos aim the cone, let Vial Rush give a burst of momentum instead of railroading Lavos into a ground-bound direction, let Transmutation Probe float, etc.).

He’s literally a League character in a third person shooter.

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Posted (edited)

Just realised that Lavos Vial Rush will not toggle crouch off while it will for sprint. XD I love Vial Rushing with a lowered camera and then still being crouched or sliding at the end of the rush. Toggling off sprint is innately detrimental to movement. If I vial rush while crouched, it's likely that I am not looking to be stealthy anymore considering the fountain of broken vials being thrown out. 

Edited by (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1
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  • 2 weeks later...

Lavos never really got the significant post-release updates that other recent frames enjoyed. Which is kind of sad. The little QoL tweaks were okay, but there still feels like something missing mechanically to let him actually stack status properly for his own ultimate, in the AOE pattern his ultimate uses. 

A forward cone. A forward trail and minor splash. A forward 'ball'.

An ult that is full radial PointBlank-AOE. The kit doesn't support it, and the cooldowns limit covering that via spam tactics - especially since you want to cast Probe after the Catalyse to get some cooldown back.

 

As the shortest CD and with lingering effects, Vial Rush does feel like it's the bread and butter status application ability you're supposed to use for Catalyse priming, but since Range only affects one brief moment of each cast (the pulse on dash end/cancel) it really doesn't cut it.

Vial count scaling with range doesn't really accomplish anything befitting the range stat. The vials need to trigger and explode in larger ranges, in addition to Catalyse having a more three-dimensional AOE per this thread - borrowing Mass Vitrify 'cascade' logic would be a good first test for that.

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On 2021-06-13 at 11:51 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

As the shortest CD and with lingering effects, Vial Rush does feel like it's the bread and butter status application ability you're supposed to use for Catalyse priming, but since Range only affects one brief moment of each cast (the pulse on dash end/cancel) it really doesn't cut it.

Vial count scaling with range doesn't really accomplish anything befitting the range stat. The vials need to trigger and explode in larger ranges, in addition to Catalyse having a more three-dimensional AOE per this thread - borrowing Mass Vitrify 'cascade' logic would be a good first test for that.

As of now, it feels the only effective way to use Lavos is to use the Cedo with him. While it's good that HIS weapon compliments HIM, he shouldn't rely on a weapon to make his kit do sonething. It also shouldn't be a catch all weapons because that results in nerfs. 

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On top of that having to use jump to be able to cancel vial rush immediately (which both accelerates you forward AND upwards) [WHICH WASN'T EVEN A THING BEFORE] i really start to not enjoy playing him anymore.. I like his cooldowns, how actively he plays.. but certain stuff becomes such a nuisance the more I play him. Just the vial rush change entirely crippled him for me. Having instant stop accessible whenever I needed it without playing twister with my hands (just pressing RB to a maximum of two times) was PERFECT, and now I'm getting yeeted both forwards and upwards, or kiss a wall for a decent amount of time depending on tileset and build.

I'm disappointed that DE yet again instead of addressing the core issue, decided to band-aid-fix something that OBVIOUSLY happens on any frame no matter what. I'm not blaming people having issues with constantly misclicking on a secondly basis, but i blame DE to force it down everyone's throat instead of making it an accessibility option across the board for users to decide if they need it or not.

---

Anyway, yh his ultimate often not hitting enemies that are like 0.1cm either above or beyond (especially non 2013-2014 level designs)(which was okayishly addressed with his 1st) [which becomes even more infuriating when i have the literal definition of LINE OF SIGHT] becomes frustrating when you only hit 25% or less with the attack. 

Lavos is like what trump said once, sounds good. Doesn't work.

Obviously i hope they address this, but it's more likely that Warframe 2 comes out which wipes all players accounts and sets everything to 0 if anyone agrees or not. That's how the reality is.

On to the next hope of frame that is active in gameplay, diverse and fitting for the majority of content and doesn't die as soon as certain enemies cough into the frames general direction. 

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