Banshee only needs one thing

[SplitzyPrime]

Banshee, a Warframe so seldom used, due to her Quake now being "useless" in the current day and age, and yet because of her kit, only one thing needs to be done to make her viable.

Make her Quake ability ALWAYS hit weakpoints created by Sonar.

That's literally all it needs. This would greatly increase the synergy of her kit. You use Silence to stun enemies, you use Sonic Boom for some quick crowd control (or armor strip if you have the augment, though I feel the ability needs built-in resistance stripping), you use Sonar to grant increased damage, and you use Quake to finish enemies, everything links together. The ability now already can hit weakpoints, and when it does, it helps a lot. Making it a sure bet to hit weakpoints with Quake would bring her out of the dark, or perhaps, even break her..silence. You wouldn't be able to just AFK in Quake form, this would still require you to put in effort and spread her Sonar, but would reward your work by making Quake actually usable.

Let me know what you think this would accomplish, what else she needs, or whether you disagree with my opinion.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

This would be especially good since it would synergize with Resonance as well.

[SplitzyPrime]

3 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

This would be especially good since it would synergize with Resonance as well.

I actually never though about that, that would be way too overpowered. You would hit damage cap, in a 80 meter radius, quite quickly.. sonar would need to be capped, as it would break the game. A solution would be that Quake cant spread sonar hits, only other forms of damage

[Voltage]

Honestly, I am not sure this would accomplish too much because the ability restricts movement. This synergy does sound nice, but in order to really make Banshee shine, I feel the ability needs to be redesigned to allow players to move, especially when Banshee is a fragile Warframe. This could even be accomplished through an ability + augment review as well. Stationary Quake just won't be practical for many applications in my opinion.

[SplitzyPrime]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

Honestly, I am not sure this would accomplish too much because the ability restricts movement. This synergy does sound nice, but in order to really make Banshee shine, I feel the ability needs to be redesigned to allow players to move at a slower pace. This could even be accomplished through an ability + augment review as well. Stationary Quake just won't be practical for many applications in my opinion.

Maybe banshee could be given an augment similar to Nyx's Assimilate augment. Slower walking speed in tradeoff for movement, or just straight out making her Quake into an ability that has slowed movement right off the bat.

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, SplitzyPrime said:

Maybe banshee could be given an augment similar to Nyx's Assimilate augment. Slower walking speed in tradeoff for movement.

Leaving the ability the same and adding an Assimilate/Mesa's Waltz type augment still doesn't feel right to me. I think a mobile, 1-handed cast for Quake that accomplishes a forced stagger and form of damage or enemy debuff would be much better. Her augment could apply a debuff as well or be a mod that switches Quake from dealing damage and debuff to a fully CC ability. Augments shouldn't feel necessary for the ability but an alternative to play the ability and the Warframe in question. Stuff like Assimilate/Mesa's Waltz isn't terrible, but they feel much more like "these should be baked in" rather than "this changes my approach to the ability".

[SplitzyPrime]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

Leaving the ability the same and adding an Assimilate/Mesa's Waltz type augment still doesn't feel right to me. I think a mobile, 1-handed cast for Quake that accomplishes a forced stagger and form of damage or enemy debuff would be much better. Her augment could apply a debuff as well or be a mod that switches Quake from dealing damage and debuff to a fully CC ability.

You're definitely right, it needs a change to how it feels.

[Tiltskillet]

Banshee only needs one thing

 

Better shoes.  I suppose that's two things, technically.

(At a minimum, besides a change like yours to her 4, Sonic Boom needs to be a one-handed cast.)

[SplitzyPrime]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

Banshee only needs one thing

 

Better shoes.  I suppose that's two things, technically.

(At a minimum, besides a change like yours to her 4, Sonic Boom needs to be a one-handed cast.)

How could I forget the shoes?

Also I didn't even realize her SB wasn't 1 handed. That'd be a welcome change.

[Berzerkules]

I'd prefer it if Quake was a cc ability that allowed free movement, something like shooting gallery but instead of a disarm it sends out sonic waves that periodically staggers enemies. CC from Silence is decent but, you have to build for limited range so you can close the gap before they recover from the stagger. Banshee has crazy damage but her cc options are mediocre at best, if she had more stagger/knockdowns she would really shine imo.

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I'd prefer it if Quake was a cc ability that allowed free movement, something like shooting gallery but instead of a disarm it sends out sonic waves that periodically staggers enemies. CC from Silence is decent but, you have to build for limited range so you can close the gap before they recover from the stagger. Banshee has crazy damage but her cc options are mediocre at best, if she had more stagger/knockdowns she would really shine imo.

I'm really fond of the idea of adding a second stun to Silence upon exiting its radius.   (Although I think this would make it too good of a subsume on other frames without alteration.) 

Anyway, unlike a lot of survivability suggestions I see made for her, I like it because it doubles down on her current playstyle instead of adding on invisibility or tankiness.

[SplitzyPrime]

12 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I'd prefer it if Quake was a cc ability that allowed free movement, something like shooting gallery but instead of a disarm it sends out sonic waves that periodically staggers enemies. CC from Silence is decent but, you have to build for limited range so you can close the gap before they recover from the stagger. Banshee has crazy damage but her cc options are mediocre at best, if she had more stagger/knockdowns she would really shine imo.

I'd agree, her dps is insane, but her CC is really lackluster. I don't main her purely because I can't crowd control enemies enough to not die.

[Berzerkules]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

I'm really fond of the idea of adding a second stun to Silence upon exiting its radius.   (Although I think this would make it too good of a subsume on other frames without alteration.) 

Anyway, unlike a lot of survivability suggestions I see made for her, I like it because it doubles down on her current playstyle instead of adding on invisibility or tankiness.

I actually really like that idea because it would make for an active playstyle. You could make passes through packs of enemies and wouldn't get shot in the back by stragglers as often. It could also work well with Sonic Boom if the stagger from exiting the Silence aoe stopped or at least slowed down the ragdoll effect from Sonic Boom. 

2 minutes ago, SplitzyPrime said:

I'd agree, her dps is insane, but her CC is really lackluster. I don't main her purely because I can't crowd control enemies enough to not die.

I'm a huge fan of cc and always have a cc ability in place of Quake. I'd prefer it if she had a solid cc for her 4 but I'll work with what I got for now. 

[Azamagon]

The problem with making her survivability rely on CC is that some enemies, particularly those you really don't wanna get hurt by (like bosses) are often entirely immune to CC though. I don't like adding tankiness to her either, but some form of pseudo-stealth would be nice (resist... urge... to promote... own... thread *shakes*)

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

The problem with making her survivability rely on CC is that some enemies, particularly those you really don't wanna get hurt by (like bosses) are often entirely immune to CC though.

Most bosses are affected by Sonic Boom though!    Yes it's not the best CC, and it doesn't work on absolutely everything, but I think it's good design for her to have some weaknesses in her ability kit that have to be modded around or played around.

 

14 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

(resist... urge... to promote... own... thread *shakes*)

😄

[(PSN)robotwars7]

 

4 hours ago, SplitzyPrime said:

Let me know what you think this would accomplish, what else she needs, or whether you disagree with my opinion.

what about this?:

instead of casting at the ground and being locked in place, Quake can now be cast to any surface, within your power range, like how Octavia's Mallets can be placed. the Quakes can act as really large mines, only instead of exploding, they deal constant stagger and damage to enemies caught inside the quake, stacking on top of Silence of course. it also wouldn't be too OP to have it automatically trigger Sonar Spots, as the enemy still has to run into the quake to be affected, so as with most area denial abilities, placing over high traffic areas and chokepoints is key if you want to hit the most enemies at once. 

this would give Banshee a much wider CC coverage, and she'd be able to move around freely at the same time, ensuring her survivability. 

[Tiltskillet]

Missed this earlier...

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm really fond of the idea of adding a second stun to Silence upon exiting its radius.   (Although I think this would make it too good of a subsume on other frames without alteration.) 

Anyway, unlike a lot of survivability suggestions I see made for her, I like it because it doubles down on her current playstyle instead of adding on invisibility or tankiness.

I actually really like that idea because it would make for an active playstyle. You could make passes through packs of enemies and wouldn't get shot in the back by stragglers as often. It could also work well with Sonic Boom if the stagger from exiting the Silence aoe stopped or at least slowed down the ragdoll effect from Sonic Boom. 

Yah.   Besides that, the thing I particularly like is it's pretty helpful to long range, neutral, or  low range Banshee.  I have a soft spot for Savage Silence and another stun would be a godsend.

There's definitely some shenanigan potential too, and it -might- be too strong without something like a limit on the number of times units can get stunned.  Although there are so many other shenanigan abilities in the game, maybe it's fine.

 

[SplitzyPrime]

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

 

what about this?:

instead of casting at the ground and being locked in place, Quake can now be cast to any surface, within your power range, like how Octavia's Mallets can be placed. the Quakes can act as really large mines, only instead of exploding, they deal constant stagger and damage to enemies caught inside the quake, stacking on top of Silence of course. it also wouldn't be too OP to have it automatically trigger Sonar Spots, as the enemy still has to run into the quake to be affected, so as with most area denial abilities, placing over high traffic areas and chokepoints is key if you want to hit the most enemies at once. 

this would give Banshee a much wider CC coverage, and she'd be able to move around freely at the same time, ensuring her survivability. 

Could also group up enemies since they'll slow down and stagger when reaching the edge of her quake, so that may be neat.

 

One thing to keep in mind though, is Quake hitting weakpoints can easily one shot steel path enemies, imagine that nonstop for 5 minutes, and you're at damage cap, something has to be done to cap damage on sonar just to keep her power in check.

 

Few days ago I hit for 2,170,000,000+ damage with..magnus. A half modded magnus that didnt even crit. Maybe turning sonar into an ability that cant be recast would keep it from being too broken, but im not sure

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Missed this earlier...

Yah.   Besides that, the thing I particularly like is it's pretty helpful to long range, neutral, or  low range Banshee.  I have a soft spot for Savage Silence and another stun would be a godsend.

There's definitely some shenanigan potential too, and it -might- be too strong without something like a limit on the number of times units can get stunned.  Although there are so many other shenanigan abilities in the game, maybe it's fine.

 

DE is kinda slippin on potential shenanigans, they just gave every frame Gloom. An aoe ability that gives life steal for weapons and abilities while also slowing enemies to a crawl. I think DE can let Banshee players have some fun too. 

Another thing I'd like for Banshee would have the augments for her 1, 2 and 3 worked into base abilities.  It's not as bad a situation as Nekros where his augments are essentially mandatory mods but I feel so naked without augments on Banshee.

[ReddyDisco]

7 hours ago, SplitzyPrime said:

Maybe banshee could be given an augment similar to Nyx's Assimilate augment. Slower walking speed in tradeoff for movement, or just straight out making her Quake into an ability that has slowed movement right off the bat.

yea no, nyx's snail crawl is the reason why i subsumed it off for breach surge. Being slow just isn't going to cut it, you have to keep moving.

 

[Surbusken]

Original Twin Peaks 'new shoes'?

 

But yeah I feel like finishers belong to stealth or tank frames, frames that can be frontline.

Excalibur as an example of it makes sense, jog into the room, stun them and do finishers, while being relatively tanky. Where Banshee is urelaible CC and fragile.

 

The her 4 locks you down, unable to do anything or even move, where I guess you argue at attempt at making a versatile frame, for different mission objectives.

But if you look at similar AOE frames from that period, frost, ember, hydroid, maybe gara, limbo can spam cast and play.

It's also generally an odd choice for a parkour fast paced game to block your controls, I'd argue it doesn't fit. *Unable to move* is like a negative effect, a stun or something, dazed, from classic mmos, I don't think you can argue it's "fun, engaging, suspensful" gameplay, not being able to do anything.

Do you get an afk penalty if you stay in 4 long enough? lol

 

Single target CC, her 1, could potentially work, but in a mob spam game, where you have group CC, why would you need a single shot version of it?

Even worse, you push the target away, which no one is interested in - especially not if the concept was landing finishers on them.

It's a GTA 4 scenario, the first time you add ragdoll effects they are fun but they can't carry a game.

 

Then it's also like, a "sound" frame? Well that's kind of octavia, isn't it. And, a Banshee is about loud screaming but she doesn't actually make any noise, instead they give her an ability called "silence"?

On top of that, "Silence" is a classic D&D spell, that ties into 'making noise', and also appears in such games as final fantasy, as far back as the 90s, where it's a triple double unfornuate choice for a name, copy-pasting from other franchises, but then not doing anything with it. I don't know if D&D is a license you can get sued over but why even go there in the first place.

If warframe is so special, don't go around town copy-pasting either.

 

So it's back to the drawing board, the theme, how it ties into the abilities, the abilities' synergy and everything - and, don't forget the shoes.

 

 

[garbenzine]

If I were to pick and choose, the thing I'd want to see changed is making either strength or duration increase the duration of the Savage Silence stagger.

[SplitzyPrime]

5 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

yea no, nyx's snail crawl is the reason why i subsumed it off for breach surge. Being slow just isn't going to cut it, you have to keep moving.

 

Snail crawl is vastly better than not being able to walk at all, though.

[Soy77]

More synergy sounds good. And although I'm not sure how much it'll affect the balance, overpowered stuff is ALWAYS more fun to play than underpowered stuff, so I'll take my chances.

If you're a person who press 4 and everything dies, but you're more disappointed than pressing 4 then nothing dies, we can't be friends. 

 

But i have to agree instead with the dude who say the shoes. Her shoes is horrible. Millennials can fight me as much as they want about how those seems comfortable. They look friggin horrendous. Even comfort need to come with some level of dignity.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

It'd be too powerful a change, but it's got the right idea. I've been saying that before wisp was a thing with her ult, but Quake could use a channeling mode where for double the energy drain you could aim a cone of directed sonic waves to hit the weakpoints of the enemies within the cone. The size of the cone can be anything from 20° to 120°, depending on the mods. It'd alleviate the one valid criticism I admit people criticizing the ability for being "boring because stationary" have, and allow for some interactivity. Hell, you could even allow Banshee to send out individual but more powerful conic pulses with each press of the mouse button to encourage a "shooting" style feel.

Your suggestion can be applied fully to sonic boom though. Even with a boost to its base damage, giving it the ability to hit weak points guaranteed wouldn't break anything power level wise. So I'm all for that when it comes to Boom.

Even with such a buff, though, boom would be really lackluster, which is why IMO it needs some synergy with silence. Silence itself, while being situationally useful in niche high level content to disable enemy abilities, has nothing going for it in general run and gun play. It too could use a little buff to make it easier to benefit from its effects on the enemy. Given that silence messes with enemy hearing, it's reasonable to assume that it could also affect their sense of balance. In gaming terms, it'd mean making enemies more susceptible to CC affects like impact procs, knock downs and ragdolling. I'm imagining something akin to enemies taking longer to recover from staggers(keep staggering longer) and get up from the floor(slower animation or forced stagger following a KD recover). Boom would obviously be pretty useful in that regard, keeping enemies incapacitated longer if under the effects of silence.

More important than most of these changes would still be to make all cast animations except her ult one handed though. She's one of those frames, along with trinity, that feels super clunky to use because of it, in relation to many of the newer frames, and while it's not as big of an issue with trin given her playstyle, it is for Banshee.