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Melee Nerf Concern


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Personally, I think melee is in a good spot. The mods do what they are supposed to and we have created weapon builds to make our melee stronger.

I think, just kinda spit balling, we could just buff the primaries and secondary so they aren't nearly as bad? I find that the reason melee is viewed as "overpowered" right now is because no primary and secondary can even come close to the damage output.

At max right now I can hit for 2 million with my Zaw, but that is only after I have gotten my combo to max, got every status proc I can, and go for a headshot.

My Rubico prime hits for 3 million with my Chroma buff but that was the best I could get with any primary (should prolly mention that I normally play solo). I don't need to mention secondaries because they just don't damage enough to even talk about. I will leave them as my utility weapon.

So, my problem is just that melee is the only thing thing that deals the damage most consistently and deals enough damage. Just bring the other weapons up to par.

 

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10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

 "Depending on the situation you may want to use it" is more accurate.   Anyway,  out of these scenarios...

 A.  Having the options to use energy pads -and/or- just not cast abilities.

B.  Having the options to use energy pads -and/or- just not cast abilities -and/or- equip magnetic status.

"B" wins.

 

What about:

C: Energy pads -and/or- lots of actions* generate energy like headshot

With C you don't have to use specific config. You just need to do specific action that is possible by probably many weapons.

In my opinion energy is common need and should be available regardless of your config.

 

* about actions:

Lots of action types should restore different amount of energy. For example

- kills might restore 1 energy

- headshot  - 2 energy

- headshot kills - 4 energy

- 1 mobile defense protected - 50 energy

 

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

What about:

C: Energy pads -and/or- lots of actions* generate energy like headshot

With C you don't have to use specific config. You just need to do specific action that is possible by probably many weapons.

In my opinion energy is common need and should be available regardless of your config.

 

* about actions:

Lots of action types should restore different amount of energy. For example

- kills might restore 1 energy

- headshot  - 2 energy

- headshot kills - 4 energy

- 1 mobile defense protected - 50 energy

 

That's the point. 

Running Impact and Magnetic as an alternative to Zenurik so you can try out other schools in your load outs.

The other schools got goodies like armor strip, healing, combo duration, more damage. Stuff weapons already do with Corrosive, Viral and mods like Healing Return.

Just because energy is a common need, do the other schools need energy generation?

Should all Warframe's get some form of energy vampire?

Almost everyone uses Zenurik not because energy generation is inherently powerful, but because the other pieces of your load out, Warframe and Weapons don't have an energy generation option.

No one runs Zenurik with Trinity. 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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I was thinking that instead of directly nerfing anything at this juncture, give melee a hidden internal "Stale Moves" list like in the Super Smash Bros. series. An attack that is used is added to the list, and for every instance of that move on the list, the entire combo containing that move is weakened. However, later attacks in the combo would have more weight towards weakening that combo, so using the first move and then stopping so you can do the first move again would not actually weaken the combo that much. Having the later attacks of a combo on the list will weaken that combo more, so spamming full combos without letting up will really have a drastic effect.

Since each melee weapon has a maximum of four ground combos (stationary, stationary block, forward, and forward block) each containing about three individual attacks, the list should probably have a maximum of about 10 "stale moves". Slide Attacks, Heavy Attacks, Ground Slams, and Heavy Slams would also go on the list as their own single-move "combos" with individual instances of those on the list having more weight toward weakening their damage, given their power. This means that Slide Attacks, Heavy Attacks, Ground Slams, and Heavy Slams would get weakened very quickly if you spam them without discretion and without any other melee attacks in between.

Going over the maximum number of stale moves would replace the oldest stale move on the list with the newest. Every second without using an attack that is on the list knocks the oldest move off the list completely. Only moves that deal damage to an enemy will be added to the list, but hitting multiple enemies or hitting one enemy with an attack that contains multi-hits will NOT add extra instances of that attack to the list for every registered hit, as that would be unfairly punishing to the player given that killing multiple enemies at once is generally encouraged, and fast weapons that hit multiple times for one button press should be just as viable as slower, single-swing weapons.

(As a side note, I initially thought gunfire could also help erase stale melee moves from the internal list, but it would be too complicated to decide how much a particular trigger type and fire rate should factor into how often the oldest stale move was knocked off, and players without guns equipped would then be at further disadvantage anyway, so gunfire should ultimately have no effect on such a system after all.)

Anyway, aside from all this, nothing else would change. It would basically just make melee require a bit more thinking than it does now, while still maintaining the more unified (stationary vs. forward, and blocking vs. no blocking) stance system brought by Melee 3.0. In this way, I feel my suggestion also addresses the complaints some players have that melee is too simple now and that you "just spam E", killing two birds with one stone.

Edited by NeoRetro10K
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1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That's the point. 

Running Impact and Magnetic as an alternative to Zenurik so you can try out other schools in your load outs.

The other schools got goodies like armor strip, healing, combo duration, more damage. Stuff weapons already do with Corrosive, Viral and mods like Healing Return.

Just because energy is a common need, do the other schools need energy generation?

Should all Warframe's get some form of energy vampire?

Almost everyone uses Zenurik not because energy generation is inherently powerful, but because the other pieces of your load out, Warframe and Weapons don't have an energy generation option.

No one runs Zenurik with Trinity. 

Changing Magnetic into "energy regenerator" would just shift from "Everyone runs Zenurik" to "Everyone runs Magnetic".

When you have universal energy regeneration then you are free to choice not only school but your frame/abilities, companions, weapons and mods.

Not everything should have powerful energy regenerators. However you should have some energy even without picking A, B, ..., or Z.

Something like Zenurik could be used for energy hungry frames (e.g. Grendel).

 

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56 minutes ago, quxier said:

Changing Magnetic into "energy regenerator" would just shift from "Everyone runs Zenurik" to "Everyone runs Magnetic".

When you have universal energy regeneration then you are free to choice not only school but your frame/abilities, companions, weapons and mods.

Not everything should have powerful energy regenerators. However you should have some energy even without picking A, B, ..., or Z.

Something like Zenurik could be used for energy hungry frames (e.g. Grendel).

 

Having universal energy generation is just power creep. 

Universal armor strip would also free up school and Warframe abilities.

Players won't be "forced" to run Viral slash or Corrosive anymore to deal with armor.

Warframes and Operator Schools have useful utility beyond more DPS, but Status procs don't. 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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Like others have said there's really no need to nerf Melee weapons there already good as is.. as the old saying goes if It ain't broken don't fix it.. Melee isn't broken so leave it alone..

Instead Buff alot of the guns Primary & Secondary & sentinel & Robotics weapons to be on par with Melee's then people would have more options which also would provide more verity 

Not every gun should receive buffs but about 60% do & so buff em up to the level of Melee will solve the issues that's the way it should be.. 

I don't like nerfs & think DE overdoses it irresponsibly its why its hard to trust them to do the right then when tweaking stuff that doesn't need touched..

Like the Double Dipping of resources honestly that nerf a few years ago was done irresponsibly I could understand non looter frames that had to use augments in order to loot being done this way..

But to do nekros the way they did when he is a looting frame was irresponsible & the way you can't double rip resources & stuff if you run Nekros & a Chesa just feels wrong its there jobs to Loot it was what there design was for.. if anything only revert the doubt dip & increase the looting chances for Nekros & Chesa only..

It's stuff like this that has me worried because there are a few Melee weapons I absolutely love & I'm afraid DE going to butcher them into unusable & that's why I agree with those who say if you're not going to do it reasonably & responsiblely then I'd suggest you don't touch em & instead just buff the guns to be on par..

I hope I'm wrong about this & DE surprises us by doing the unexpected because that would be really cool honestly..  time will tell!! Sisters of Parvos can't get here fast enough!!!!

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7 hours ago, NSGWalnuts said:

Personally, I think melee is in a good spot. The mods do what they are supposed to and we have created weapon builds to make our melee stronger.

I think, just kinda spit balling, we could just buff the primaries and secondary so they aren't nearly as bad? I find that the reason melee is viewed as "overpowered" right now is because no primary and secondary can even come close to the damage output.

At max right now I can hit for 2 million with my Zaw, but that is only after I have gotten my combo to max, got every status proc I can, and go for a headshot.

My Rubico prime hits for 3 million with my Chroma buff but that was the best I could get with any primary (should prolly mention that I normally play solo). I don't need to mention secondaries because they just don't damage enough to even talk about. I will leave them as my utility weapon.

So, my problem is just that melee is the only thing thing that deals the damage most consistently and deals enough damage. Just bring the other weapons up to par.

 

Powercreep is already rampant in the game. Just buffing guns to melee levels is the absolute worst decision to do in this situation, absolutely destroying any resemblance of balance. DE would have to fix the fallout for years.

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1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Having universal energy generation is just power creep. 

Not necessary. It had to be balanced. You would have to do something to get energy.

And even it introduce some power creep at least it would make you earn it somehow.

6 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

 

Players won't be "forced" to run Viral slash or Corrosive anymore to deal with armor.

I'm not sure... 75% seems nice but I haven't really tested it. Xaku's 75% doesn't seems to be powerful.

 

ps. it's starting to be little oftopic

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32 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Having universal energy generation is just power creep. 

Universal armor strip would also free up school and Warframe abilities.

Players won't be "forced" to run Viral slash or Corrosive anymore to deal with armor.

Warframes and Operator Schools have useful utility beyond more DPS, but Status procs don't. 

It would be, so it'd require some nerfs to external sources, but whilst it's power creep it has one really, really important benefit.

 

If everyone has energy regeneration of roughly the same amount (or even better, if each Warframe had a particular amount of regen), then that provides a baseline. If there's a baseline, that turns energy from being a fairly abstract meaningless number to having a value. If 100 energy was, for example, 10 seconds of baseline energy regeneration, then now energy means something. In turn, you can now balance abilities around that value. For example, an ultimate that clears a whole room might be optimally cast once every 5 seconds to ensure constant coverage, but that makes constant nuking unsustainable. Other means of implementing these stopgaps could be that particularly powerful abilities inhibit innate energy restoration for a period of time, or similar to now, channeled powers preventing regeneration (which would actually mean something if it's inhibiting your main methods of energy regen, rather than several of the best ways to restore energy being exceptions).

Those numbers are completely arbitrary for demonstration purposes, it's worth noting.

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On 2021-06-01 at 12:10 PM, KVenom said:

Dear DE,

I know that you guys already decided on nerfing the Melee in general, so there is no point on begging you to reconsider that.

But please, heed my plea: NERF RESPONSIBLY.

Don't overnerf Melee too much. You guys don't have a history of responsible nerfs, starting with Covert Lethality/Life Strike, ending with Frost and Helmynth.

So please, just try to not go overboard with that.
 

For me, personally, melee is practicly the primary reason to play Warframe. You may call your game a "looter-shooter", but for me(and many other players) - it's a Looter-Slasher. So if you take that away, this would make the whole game for me a very unpleasant process. For me, and maybe more than a few players.

Thanks in advance.

I love this drama around the patch even though we know nothing.

The problem is twofold:

1) The stagger mechanic they added recently, any decent aoe weapon has a stagger (and they added it to weapons that didn't have self-damage in the past), which makes them immediately worse than melee. Since Warframe is mostly a horde shooter, you'll invariably be faced with enemies at point blank, so in that regard its bad. And since melee has better scaling and response at short to medium range and because of dumb AI means enemies will come to you, melee wins.
Remember when people were freaking out because snipers in Orb Vallis had insane range, and kept to it? That's the kind of AI the game needed to keep Ranged weapons relevant.

2) The mods. This is the real source of imbalance between melee and primaries. If you go at it unmodded, or with just base damage mods, you'll not see a big disparity, actually in many cases ranged weapons will fare better than melee, less risk, some of them have better coverage in terms of splash damage, others have way better attack speed (aka fire rate) than melee, The problem is when you add in mods that stack and scale. Like CO, Blood Rush, Gladiator Mods, etc. These are the primary sources of the disparity your damage can quickly scale up to unbelievable heights, while primaries end up in the gutter.

Now i share people's concerns, especially that they over correct. Because right now many primaries do have stronger base stats than melee, adding scaling mods on top of that will make melee not viable, especially if they nerf melee in other ways. So if anything might need a nerf stat wise is primaries. Imagine something like CO or blood rush on an Opticor or a Tigris.

Another thing that needs change is enemy AI, if all enemies behave pretty much the same, then you don't need to adapt to them. Why use different weapons if the enemies all come at you all the same. This is why Ignis Wraith is probably one of the most used primaries in the game, its a Flame Thrower. That's what you use when you have hordes rushing you. Short range massed aoe damage.

 

Edited by ReaverKane
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6 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

I love this drama around the patch even though we know nothing.

We know that they are targeting attack speed as per devstream 152 (February) and we got hints towards melee getting nerfed so hard that you'll still be able to see your attack animations after mods if we go by the fact the game's art director and design director were openly displeased with attack speed becoming a blur. 

In that devstream, they also said they were going to remove melee forced staggers from stances, which they did. Thus we have no reason to think attack speed won't take a huge hit.

That alone is a massive nerf.

Edited by Jarriaga
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3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

We know that they are targeting attack speed as per devstream 152 (February) and we got hints towards melee getting nerfed so hard that you'll still be able to see your attack animations after mods if we go by the fact the game's art director and design director were openly displeased with attack speed becoming a blur. 

In that devstream, they also said they were going to remove melee forced staggers from stances, which they did. Thus we have no reason to think attack speed won't take a huge hit.

That alone is a massive nerf.

Depends on how much the attack speed is nerfed, if at all, since they already changed their tone from dev stream to dev stream...

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10 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Depends on how much the attack speed is nerfed, if at all, since they already changed their tone from dev stream to dev stream...

That's not the impression I got when they made it a point to highlight that we should be expecting a handful of nerfs during last devstream (Yareli reveal):

ds.png

They were trying to set expectations so people are not as surprised. If you have a more recent source that is more optimistic (Changed their tone) then please be my guest and share it.

Edited by Jarriaga
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Posted (edited)
6 часов назад, ReaverKane сказал:

Not late to the party, just tired of doomsayers being annoying and just speculating without any basis of information. I would rather comment when they actually have a dev workshop with actual info we can give feedback on instead of trying to guess.

1.1) Stagger damage was nerfed, but still there, still makes weapons less useful on close range things.

1.2) You must have never played Steel path survival past 5m. Those things stop being useful so quick its not even funny. Yes they're "awesome" on the regular star chart, but nowhere near as efficient as melee weapons.

2.1) Sure glaives have some issues, idk if the detonation is the issue, not on all glaives, but ok.

2.2) Indeed, and that's what i also said, they risk overcorrecting.
2.3) DE didn't suggest anything except for generic stuff like they're going to change mods rather than actual stats and whatnot. Leaks are leaks, if you want i can give you a "leak" with 100 mods just like that one, if you want i'll make a new mod set named after you and everything. You know, because you don't even need photoshop to photoshop stuff nowadays.

2.4) Never said melee was OP. Melee just does something that ranged doesn't, which is, it scales. That's 90% of the balance necessary, just add ranged counterparts to bloodrush, Condition Overload, and other similar mods that can scale in damage and effect, and you'll have a closer gameplay in weapons.
 

1) Nerfs is a nerf. They already nerfed stagger enough. Anymore, and melee will become too risky. Borderline unviable, even.
2) Oh, adorable. Just because you don't understand why those weapons are called nukes, doesn't mean that they aren't nukes. FYI, kiddo, properly built Kuva Nukor can DESTROY 1h SP Survival with any faction. And Bramma is amazingly good on Steel Path Deimos. I suggest actually trying those, they are not THAT hard to build. And both of them, as well as many other Nuke firearms do the job WAY FASTER than any non-Glaive melee, as tested on actual Steel Path enemies. 
3) DE said this kinds of nonsense so far:

  • "Speed is the issue" - BRUH. More speed mods just translates into lacking of other things a weapon could've had. That's all. I mean, in Proper Melee build we have 1-2 mandatory mods, 2 -3 elemental damage mods, 2-4 Build-specific mods(Citical Damage, Status Chance, Gladiator Set, Blood Rush) and 1 Flavour Mod(range, even more damage, combo duration, status duration). 1 Speed mod is mandatory, since base Speed on Melee sucks. But adding more than 1 is the high risk of making a very lackluster build, since that would mean that we would need to sacrifice one of the mods mentioned above. The type of build that will make Torment The Acolyte's Pistols blush. the weakest acolyte, can be killed by a rank 0 warframe with skiajati and no helmynth, her pistols barely tickle
  • "Stagger is the issue" - also kinda redundant, considering all that I mentioned above.

4) Yes, melee scales. BUT SO DO FIREARMS. They have Acolyte mods too, ya know. Except, as I already said, they SUCK. Things like Hydraulic Crosshairs and Laser Sight need a minor buff in their duration(and sometimes effects themselves) to actually be good. Plain and simple.

5) And final nail in the coffin: there is a bit of a rule in Game Dev about balancing things - "If you nerf something, not only you must never nerf it into the ground, but you should also buff something properly, as compensation". And what "compensation" do we get? Ridiculous, pathetic, straight up idiotic mods, that might as well force us to abandon all warframes in favor of Mesa. "Gun Buffs", my butt.

Edited by KVenom
Grammar. English ain't my first language.
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Posted (edited)
5 часов назад, Jarriaga сказал:

We know that they are targeting attack speed as per devstream 152 (February) and we got hints towards melee getting nerfed so hard that you'll still be able to see your attack animations after mods if we go by the fact the game's art director and design director were openly displeased with attack speed becoming a blur. 

In that devstream, they also said they were going to remove melee forced staggers from stances, which they did. Thus we have no reason to think attack speed won't take a huge hit.

That alone is a massive nerf.

Yes, it can be massive. Zenistar and Gram Prime will have a risk of being absolutely abandoned. Dual Kama meta might return.

Edited by KVenom
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10 hours ago, KVenom said:

1) Nerfs is a nerf. They already nerfed stagger enough. Anymore, and melee will become too risky. Borderline unviable, even.
2) Oh, adorable. Just because you don't understand why those weapons are called nukes, doesn't mean that they aren't nukes. FYI, kiddo, properly built Kuva Nukor can DESTROY 1h SP Survival with any faction. And Bramma is amazingly good on Steel Path Deimos. I suggest actually trying those, they are not THAT hard to build. And both of them, as well as many other Nuke firearms do the job WAY FASTER than any non-Glaive melee, as tested on actual Steel Path enemies. 
3) DE said this kinds of nonsense so far:

  • "Speed is the issue" - BRUH. More speed mods just translates into lacking of other things a weapon could've had. That's all. I mean, in Proper Melee build we have 1-2 mandatory mods, 2 -3 elemental damage mods, 2-4 Build-specific mods(Citical Damage, Status Chance, Gladiator Set, Blood Rush) and 1 Flavour Mod(range, even more damage, combo duration, status duration). 1 Speed mod is mandatory, since base Speed on Melee sucks. But adding more than 1 is the high risk of making a very lackluster build, since that would mean that we would need to sacrifice one of the mods mentioned above. The type of build that will make Torment The Acolyte's Pistols blush. the weakest acolyte, can be killed by a rank 0 warframe with skiajati and no helmynth, her pistols barely tickle
  • "Stagger is the issue" - also kinda redundant, considering all that I mentioned above.

4) Yes, melee scales. BUT SO DO FIREARMS. They have Acolyte mods too, ya know. Except, as I already said, they SUCK. Things like Hydraulic Crosshairs and Laser Sight need a minor buff in their duration(and sometimes effects themselves) to actually be good. Plain and simple.

5) And final nail in the coffin: there is a bit of a rule in Game Dev about balancing things - "If you nerf something, not only you must never nerf it into the ground, but you should also buff something properly, as compensation". And what "compensation" do we get? Ridiculous, pathetic, straight up idiotic mods, that might as well force us to abandon all warframes in favor of Mesa. "Gun Buffs", my butt.

1) I don't see how removing stagger from primaries will increase the risk on melee, but ok.
2) No one talked about Nukor, which btw is great for priming CO weapons, but by itself it doesn't do what you claim it does, because i have one, proper built, with SEVERAL valence fusions on it, i think its at 56% status. And while its pretty great it doesn't do miracles. Now shoot a Nukor for 2 seconds on an enemy and then go at the pack with a CO weapon? Then you're one shotting everything in sight.

3) I never said i agree with their speed nerfs. And that's not really how you usually build a melee weapon. You have more mandatory mods than that, but ok.
You didn't say anything valid about stagger except nonesense.

4) LOL. Ok, if you're just going to bullS#&$ me, thanks we're done, you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. So i won't bother with anything else.

5) Again, what me to "leak" a few mods myself?

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3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

After the workshop comes up we can probably rename the forums to Bonneville.

Howabout Bonedville. L0d5i.gif

NEW BONNEDVILLE Enhanced performance, handling and technology, timeless.

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2 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I'm sure people will be nothing but respectful and rational.

But this will be the end of warframe.......again........trust me.

I'd expect nothing less from the playerbase, we have the end is nigh every few months. lol 

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