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Melee Nerf Concern


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okay, so they nerf melee, in a game where the selling point is being a space ninja. why? melee is fine, what is melee stopping people from doing? warframe's gunplay as of late is basically melee, i literally just run up to everything point blank and open fire at their head because the aiming is wonky and enemies move too quickly for precision. if they want guns to be more viable they should force everyone to play as a operator using their gun of choice in slow grueling trench fights,

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il y a 15 minutes, dudefaceguy a dit :

 The main thing Warframe has always needed is better enemies.

Damn true!

In a video about WF IA, Ashisogi had made spawn some grinner with their shield (Sorry, i dont remember their name) then he just rolled and look them staring where he was, walking on that direction carefully behind their shield for, like, 10 seconds... I was aware that WF IA is not close to perfection but I wasn't aware it's so far from it.

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Lets not forget about "the tragedy of darth-energy-channeling"

Replacing it with ragdolling enemies up into the air out of melee range? really? they were better off not doing anything at all.
 

 

(As a side note, I'd be interested in knowing how many people use melee lifting seriously, willing to bet it is much lower then the amount that used channeling)

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PSN)FromOtherSpace:

Damn true!

In a video about WF IA, Ashisogi had made spawn some grinner with their shield (Sorry, i dont remember their name) then he just rolled and look them staring where he was, walking on that direction carefully behind their shield for, like, 10 seconds... I was aware that WF IA is not close to perfection but I wasn't aware it's so far from it.

devs have top people. AI can be improved super easily. but that's not what the majority want. most people are causal.

Isn't it obvious how they will freak out when AI behaves like in a pvp game? Camping, sprinting, crouching, jumping, left-right movements, running out of range, etc ...
or jokes like: you go into another room and there a group camps with nulli shield next to the wall and gives you heaps of headshots.

but team work has never worked in publics.
and if you want a challenge, you can play against other players.

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Posted (edited)

In his video which I can't find for now, Ashisogi  made a proposal for a kind of "IA scaling" : Dumb ennemies on starter planet and they get less and less dump. I think it could be a sort of solution. (I dont know how difficult or easy this could be to implement, I got zero xp in coding)

Edited by (PSN)FromOtherSpace
typo
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1 hour ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

In his video which I can't find for now, Ashisogi  made a proposal for a kind of "IA scaling" : Dumb ennemies on starter planet and they get less and less dump. I think it could be a sort of solution. (I dont know how difficult or easy this could be to implement, I got zero xp in coding)

What can a smart Grineer do against Limbo, Saryn, or Equinox?

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9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What can a smart Grineer do against Limbo, Saryn, or Equinox?

Easy actually. AI Squads. Special abilities for defensive units. 
Example, Heavy Gunners always spawn in sets of 2, with 4 Elite Shield Lancers to guard them against AoE attacks or chained beams. Special property of said Shield Lancers? Negate all all abilities directed at them from their front while redirecting all abilities cast in their vicinity to themselves. 

A Saryn would be unable to spread her spores onto the Shield Lancer, who would prevent the Spores from affecting the other units in his 'Squad'.
Saryn player would then need to remove the Shield Lancers first and then apply the Spores. 

Make the diverse unit types actually mean something and have them spawn in groups of specific unit types to force the player to actually think a little when engaging. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Easy actually. AI Squads. Special abilities for defensive units. 
Example, Heavy Gunners always spawn in sets of 2, with 4 Elite Shield Lancers to guard them against AoE attacks or chained beams. Special property of said Shield Lancers? Negate all all abilities directed at them from their front while redirecting all abilities cast in their vicinity to themselves. 

A Saryn would be unable to spread her spores onto the Shield Lancer, who would prevent the Spores from affecting the other units in his 'Squad'.
Saryn player would then need to remove the Shield Lancers first and then apply the Spores. 

Make the diverse unit types actually mean something and have them spawn in groups of specific unit types to force the player to actually think a little when engaging. 

The most glaring issue is that older enemies haven't been updated at all to match how Warframe changes for the player.

Warframe enemies are designed for a cover shooter back in the early years of Warframe when stamina was a thing and melee was objectively worse than guns.

In the New Era of Warframe, it feels like the enemies are practicing Napoleonic tactics against tanks with machine guns.

Butchers rush you out of cover, except Warframes don't need cover and melee is the most OP thing players have while Butchers are the squishiest of Grineer.

Lancers and Heavy Gunners shoot at you behind cover. Lancers throw down blunts if no cover is available, but players have no short supply of AOE.

Shield Lancers provide mobile cover for other units to close the distance......, but what tactical advantage does closing the distance provide?

Some changes to old enemies:

Butchers and Scorpions should be the tankier than Heavy Gunners so that them rushing you actually makes tactical sense. Up in your face, drawing your aggro away from the squishier ranged units like a tank.

Lancers should always try to keep their distance and be a bit quicker than they are now. They should have to be a hassle to hunt down with melee.

Second thought, If DE really wanted to challenge us, they could just throw squads of reskinned Rathuum Grineer at us enmasse in normal missions.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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8 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Second thought, If DE really wanted to challenge us, they could just throw squads of reskinned Rathuum Grineer at us enmasse in normal missions.

 

With some tweaks, that would do a lot of good things.  Last but not least:  the initial forum meltdowns would be amazing.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

Easy actually. AI Squads. Special abilities for defensive units. 
Example, Heavy Gunners always spawn in sets of 2, with 4 Elite Shield Lancers to guard them against AoE attacks or chained beams. Special property of said Shield Lancers? Negate all all abilities directed at them from their front while redirecting all abilities cast in their vicinity to themselves. 

A Saryn would be unable to spread her spores onto the Shield Lancer, who would prevent the Spores from affecting the other units in his 'Squad'.
Saryn player would then need to remove the Shield Lancers first and then apply the Spores. 

Make the diverse unit types actually mean something and have them spawn in groups of specific unit types to force the player to actually think a little when engaging. 

You actually made my point and what I wanted to get at: Smart AI is useless without much despised total ability immunity.

There's nothing smart AI can do against Limbo stasis unless they are flat-out made immune to stasis. There's nothing they can do either against a 10 million damage Maim nuke unless they are immune to it.

The problem is our power level. Not the enemies. An enemy that can't even move or that dies out of sight due to a 60 meter nuke is harmless to you. This is something Pablo himself acknowledged some time ago:

Quote

Pablo said: Imagine a world in which every single enemy is controlled by a deepmind AI (The StarCraft AI designed to beat pro-players), so the smartest AI you can have or imagine in every single enemy. You'll be able to just press 4 and just freeze them in place and shoot them in the face. There's absolutely nothing the smartest AI can do if you can crowd-control them forever. So how do you counter that? You have to nerf those things. But imagine the level of friction it would generate with the community if all CC abilities in the game were nerfed.

And guess how many enemies would need to survive nukes as to make a difference? Are those 4 Elite Shield Lancers protecting all other 20 Grineer that die as soon as they spawn?

Edited by Jarriaga
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4 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Damn true!

In a video about WF IA, Ashisogi had made spawn some grinner with their shield (Sorry, i dont remember their name) then he just rolled and look them staring where he was, walking on that direction carefully behind their shield for, like, 10 seconds... I was aware that WF IA is not close to perfection but I wasn't aware it's so far from it.

And it's in simulacrum I believe, not in field testing because as far as I see in the field, shield lancers still turn around to where I am

And even with best AI, or human players secretly put into the mission, how can they react when they're getting locked down or nuked 50 meters away? Should we start nerfing warframe abilities too to have line of sight and no longer locking down enemies? Because last time we have abilities changed to requiring line of sight (Khora Whipclaw), it doesn't hit enemies sometimes because the terrain blocked it and you can see the meltdown

4 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

In his video which I can't find for now, Ashisogi  made a proposal for a kind of "IA scaling" : Dumb ennemies on starter planet and they get less and less dump. I think it could be a sort of solution. (I dont know how difficult or easy this could be to implement, I got zero xp in coding)

Why should they scale in the first place? Make even starter planet enemies act smart where they suppress you, no need for dumb enemies and they getting less dumb

3 hours ago, Reitrix said:

Easy actually. AI Squads. Special abilities for defensive units. 
Example, Heavy Gunners always spawn in sets of 2, with 4 Elite Shield Lancers to guard them against AoE attacks or chained beams. Special property of said Shield Lancers? Negate all all abilities directed at them from their front while redirecting all abilities cast in their vicinity to themselves. 

A Saryn would be unable to spread her spores onto the Shield Lancer, who would prevent the Spores from affecting the other units in his 'Squad'.
Saryn player would then need to remove the Shield Lancers first and then apply the Spores. 

Make the diverse unit types actually mean something and have them spawn in groups of specific unit types to force the player to actually think a little when engaging. 

In short, spores having line of sight which is surely hated by many. And it's pointless when you can bring an explosive weapon and blow them away like nothing unless we make them highly resistant/immune to frontal attack too

Not to mention we need to nerf nearly every ability that locks or disable AI so they're still able to fight back even under our abilites

2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Butchers and Scorpions should be the tankier than Heavy Gunners so that them rushing you actually makes tactical sense. Up in your face, drawing your aggro away from the squishier ranged units like a tank.

And what is the reason they should be tankier? As I'm sure people would complain that they're light unit but for some reason tougher than a heavy gunner. Make them way faster than what we have now and make them able to block or counter our melee like prosecutor

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

There's nothing smart AI can do against Limbo stasis unless they are flat-out made immune to stasis. There's nothing they can do either against a 10 million damage Maim nuke unless they are immune to it.

I sharpened the nerf hammer too much it's a nerf axe now, what we're nerfing next?

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6 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Damn true!

In a video about WF IA, Ashisogi had made spawn some grinner with their shield (Sorry, i dont remember their name) then he just rolled and look them staring where he was, walking on that direction carefully behind their shield for, like, 10 seconds... I was aware that WF IA is not close to perfection but I wasn't aware it's so far from it.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And it's in simulacrum I believe, not in field testing because as far as I see in the field, shield lancers still turn around to where I am

In normal missions I still see weird AI. I can sometimes roll in front of enemy and he won't see me (I can do stealth finisher). I once played "pranks" for minutes on enemy that took cover and he have been crouching. I could jump around his back and he didn't hear me. He might be deaf (it's was a Greener) but come on... look around you from time to time!

 

6 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

Isn't it obvious how they will freak out when AI behaves like in a pvp game? Camping, sprinting, crouching, jumping, left-right movements, running out of range, etc ...
or jokes like: you go into another room and there a group camps with nulli shield next to the wall and gives you heaps of headshots.

I sometimes see group of 3 or more Nullies... it's close enough.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Why should they scale in the first place? Make even starter planet enemies act smart where they suppress you, no need for dumb enemies and they getting less dumb

Whole system might be hard to understand for new players. I remember not getting statuses when I started playing this game for a long time. For example radiation... I wonder if there is some place in the field where they explain it clearly.

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8 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

As a side note, I'd be interested in knowing how many people use melee lifting seriously, willing to bet it is much lower then the amount that used channeling

Lets just say I still get surprised for a microsecond or two every time I accidentally "lift" enemies.

It might an excellent fighting technique, but it doesn't suit me personally. Using abilities ("magic") or explosions/impact procs ("kinetic energy") to make enemies fly around is perfectly fine, but for some reason making them hang in the air when fighting them with hand-held melee weapons feels completely off. I am not saying the "lifting" is bad, just that I personally dislike it and thus try to avoid it.

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Posted (edited)

In my opinion melee should get a "total" rework. Abilities work pretty much ok according to the in-game framework (with the exception of stat-stick dependencies), primaries/secondaries also work ok. Area effects, punch-through, target linking, explosions, mostly it all makes sense.

Melee on the other hand is completely senseless. If I stand in the middle of room full of armored enemies and wave my melee weapon around, I am somehow able to hit all of them. To shoot one target behind another I need to have punch-through, but my melee weapon magically passes through all bodies and all that armor and hits every enemy within it's radius. What is actually happening? Is this some representation of me running around poking the enemies at über-ultra-speed, or does all my melee weapons have some inherent incorporeal ability that allows it to pass through bodies (and armor) while only doing a little damage?

Of course, from a game-balancing viewpoint (or a "power-fantasy" viewpoint) it makes mathematical sense, sort of, that I can whip out my tiny dagger modded for range and hit every enemy within reach. But it doesn't sync with the mostly logical in-game physics of primaries, secondaries and abilities, or with the environment overall.

This is not all that is wrong (with melee). If you making a sweeping attack it is logical that you can hit several enemies closest to you and within range. If you make a lunging attack it makes sense that you can "punch-through" your first target and also hit the target(s) behind. In both cases it would also feel right to be able to hit a "next target behind" if you insta-kill the one in front. But that is not how melee works, at all. In fact we can't even see or experience how it works, since melee fighting animations aren't all that connected to what happens. What you see is your warframe making some moves, damage numbers and proc effects. And enemies dying like flies.

My point is not actually dissing Warframe melee as such, but that the melee disconnect from in-game reality is what divides players, and their views. In one corner are those loving that they have to aim, shoot, line up, re-load and handle all the other mechanics of shooting enemies, in the other are those loving that enemies die in droves just by pressing E. The first group likes a game where you have to move, plan, aim, shoot, conserve ammo, the second group likes a game where unlimited killing potential, can jump at the closest enemies and press E.

I am not saying either one is right (or wrong), I am just not totally sure that the real problem in all this can be solved with a math-/DPS-based re-balancing of amounts of damage. Or in other words, the actual problem with melee currently being "too effective" (when compared to guns and abilities) might not be in the damage numbers themselves, but in the melee mechanics. If so, pushing numbers up or down (buff/nerf) will not help.

Edited by Graavarg
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On 2021-06-01 at 5:29 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Last stream honestl made the nerf sound a lot worse than what was originally pitched.

They said the main focus on melee was the attack speed and how you can get a super fast attack speed with all the attack speed mods. So they were going to limit how many attack speed mods you could put on. The problem with this logic is that literally no one builds for max attack speed as a meta build so I don’t really seeing any nerf to this as a big problem unless they make it 1 attack speed mod only. That’s going to really screw with my Baruuk build.

other than that I don’t really see a damage nerf as they said they weren’t going to buff each individual gun but instead add mods. They aren’t going to nerf each individual melee.

My builds are focused on attack speed. 3 slots sacrificed and forma'ed for attack speed mods alone.

To adress the powercreep, they won't touch insane buff stacks, they won't touch arcanes or other powerceeped content, no - they will tackle the new player-friendly way to boost your dps via attack speed.

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30 minutes ago, Hayrack said:

My builds are focused on attack speed. 3 slots sacrificed and forma'ed for attack speed mods alone.

To adress the powercreep, they won't touch insane buff stacks, they won't touch arcanes or other powerceeped content, no - they will tackle the new player-friendly way to boost your dps via attack speed.

I don't use attack speed mods no need, if you build a certain way. Though some just want super speed on the first swing.

-----------------------------

2GWe1.jpgzQdpo.jpg

 

I'll just chill and wait for the changes and see how it effects my game play.

Not dig myself into a hole of despair over it,DXqODgr.gif DE will do what DE do. 

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vor 31 Minuten schrieb Kaotyke:

We are very concerned. Remember when they nerfed the Beams into uselessness?! It now sits in my inventory with less use than my Lato!

is also a big company. I've worked in some of them myself. what goes on there can only be described as embarrassing.
not every decision is perfect. actually very far from perfection. But there are things in the foreground like profit, motivation of players etc.

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35 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

Also I read some leaks that sound very "interesting" for the buffs 
"300% damage for rifles, shotgun's and secondaries on the condition you dont have a melee equipped and they have 20 drain and they're called ballistic serration, point blank and hornet strike"
how insanely out of touch does that sound to you :D
this update is gonna be a blast 

giphy.gif

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Here's a fun detail.

With Power Spike from Naramon and Drifting Contact, it takes more than 10 minutes to fully lose a combo count from its maximum, and a minute to lose each individual stack (i.e. to go from 2X to 1X. This means with 2 mods and a focus investment, Blood Rush (the single strongest crit mod in the entire game, including god-rolled riven mods on max-disposition weapons), can be considered a completely normal crit chance mod after the first few seconds of combat, because that's how much time it takes to get it ramped up to 2 or 3X.

In other words, the mod which is stronger than every other non-riven, non-augment crit mod in the game has functionally no weaknesses after a certain amount of progression.

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4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

In other words, the mod which is stronger than every other non-riven, non-augment crit mod in the game has functionally no weaknesses after a certain amount of progression.

aaaand the point is?
All used mods should be like that, not just one or two.That will create diversity, not "make everything sh1tty and pick between the less sh1t and more sh1t".

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2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

aaaand the point is?
All used mods should be like that, not just one or two.That will create diversity, not "make everything sh1tty and pick between the less sh1t and more sh1t".

The point is that more power should be bought at some kind of opportunity cost. That's how it's supposed to work. Power vs Consistency, Risk results in Reward. Being good on one respect means weakness in another. That creates diversity, because you can't just choose to have everything. In turn, different people building for different things will use different loadouts.

Blood Rush as it currently exists is effectively just 'Point Strike but better'. That's not diversity, because diversity would look something like 'do you want to be somewhat powerful all the time, or really powerful in this particular situation'. And then depending on how often you personally found yourself in that situation, that'd effect your choice.

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