Melee Nerf Concern

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb vegetosayajin:

No "better" is your words and hopes, not mine, apparently you don't understand. 

You're arguing semantics.

vor 1 Minute schrieb vegetosayajin:

So if you point is to just be contrarian for the sake of it, go ahead.

You're accusing me of "not understanding" because I said "make better" where you said "buff" in literally the exact same comment.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

On 2021-06-01 at 7:10 PM, KVenom said:

Dear DE,

I know that you guys already decided on nerfing the Melee in general, so there is no point on begging you to reconsider that.

But please, heed my plea: NERF RESPONSIBLY.

Don't overnerf Melee too much. You guys don't have a history of responsible nerfs, starting with Covert Lethality/Life Strike, ending with Frost and Helmynth.

So please, just try to not go overboard with that.
 

For me, personally, melee is practicly the primary reason to play Warframe. You may call your game a "looter-shooter", but for me(and many other players) - it's a Looter-Slasher. So if you take that away, this would make the whole game for me a very unpleasant process. For me, and maybe more than a few players.

Thanks in advance.

And while you’re at it, can maybe subsumed larva have a couple more meters of range?

21.2m at 290% is....

Well, not good.

[Reitrix]

4 minutes ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

And while you’re at it, can maybe subsumed larva have a couple more meters of range?

21.2m at 290% is....

Well, not good.

On a cheap spammable ability that can be thrown across a room to snatch said entire room worth of spawns instantly? 

It's perfectly fine. Vaubans Tether Mines are a joke compared to how snappy the yank is on Larva. Making Larva reach even further would make it too good. 

Unless you'd like to see some functionality loss for that extra range of course. Maybe a target cap and the tendrils sloooooooowly drag mobs over the floor and get them stuck on bumps? XD

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

7 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

On a cheap spammable ability that can be thrown across a room to snatch said entire room worth of spawns instantly? 

It's perfectly fine. Vaubans Tether Mines are a joke compared to how snappy the yank is on Larva. Making Larva reach even further would make it too good. 

Unless you'd like to see some functionality loss for that extra range of course. Maybe a target cap and the tendrils sloooooooowly drag mobs over the floor and get them stuck on bumps? XD

It exists on Nidus and the game hasn’t broken yet. I’m literally asking for the nerfed version to have just a few more meters. It’s ranged was halved. It was over nerfed. You have to have a max range build to get it to 20 meters. 
 

Anything smaller and it’s barely functional.

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

It exists on Nidus and the game hasn’t broken yet. I’m literally asking for the nerfed version to have just a few more meters. It’s ranged was halved. It was over nerfed. You have to have a max range build to get it to 20 meters. 
 

Anything smaller and it’s barely functional.

That's because Nidus alone can get max range.

It's nerfed for the same reason Warcry, Eclipse, Dispensary, Roar etc are nerfed.

Why bring the original frame for that ability if every frame in the game can provide the same thing but also have access to more powerful abilities on the side through their natural kit?

So no, Subsumed Larva does not need more range, it works perfectly fine as is. If you want more range ... Go play Nidus. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

13 hours ago, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

For me, better IA everywhere is fine, even if we cant see it in action when ennemies dies on first hit.

And it's a pointless work when we can't see it in action. That time and resource would be better spent on something else unless we're turning warframe into a grounded combat game to see it

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

9 hours ago, Reitrix said:

That's because Nidus alone can get max range.

It's nerfed for the same reason Warcry, Eclipse, Dispensary, Roar etc are nerfed.

Why bring the original frame for that ability if every frame in the game can provide the same thing but also have access to more powerful abilities on the side through their natural kit?

So no, Subsumed Larva does not need more range, it works perfectly fine as is. If you want more range ... Go play Nidus. 

It’s not his signature ability. The entire point of the Helminth system was that we weren’t taking away the most important reason to bring a specific frame.

Even without larva, Nidus still has his 1 and its crit augment, his stacks that make him immortal, his link which increases ally power strength, and his ultimate. Larva is not the “core” of his kit, and if it was, it should’ve never been his subsume.

with the same amount of range, 290% you can get ensnare over 60-70 meters, and that ability doesn’t even require line of sight.

People in this thread were talking about DE’s propensity to overnerf, this is an example of something that was overnerfed. A 25% reduction would’ve been perfectly tenable, it would’ve allowed Nidus to still have the better version of Larva, if for whatever reason you decide that’s important, without forcing the subsumed version to require a max range build to get off the ground.

There aren’t a great many frames that can use max range builds well, and of them, there’s a very select few that actually want larva in the first place. Particularly because at 290% range, most abilities are getting into the 40-60m range, and therefor, enemies will either be dead or stunned a long time before they get close to larva.

It was overnerfed, I don’t really see that as being debatable. The nerfs to roar and dispensary don’t prevent the abilities from functioning and don’t make being able to synergise with them extremely awkward.

Specially not when ensnare is allowed to exist in the state it’s in.

[killerJoke66]

16 hours ago, Reitrix said:

That's because Nidus alone can get max range.

It's nerfed for the same reason Warcry, Eclipse, Dispensary, Roar etc are nerfed.

Why bring the original frame for that ability if every frame in the game can provide the same thing but also have access to more powerful abilities on the side through their natural kit?

So no, Subsumed Larva does not need more range, it works perfectly fine as is. If you want more range ... Go play Nidus. 

i have a question coming from sheer curiosity , would you be okay or how would you react if subsumed larva would be same as the original one ? Just a note ; i dont like using larva it is clunky imo i use a better alternative which i wont say what it is but i was just really curious about your stance on this . 

You throw an argument for the sake of justification on behalf of DE , trying to make a logic out of it , when in fact we dont know exactly why the balance in this state the way it is , sometimes they release cedo a good take and sometimes they release almost useless arcanes ... 

The very next day(or whatever date, that is irrelevant)  they could be changing the larva subsume to be same as nidus's and/or making the original weak and stronger for the subsumed , or the same or different appliences for other subsumed abilities , they have a track record of doing spontaneous changes just for the sake of it ... so how would you know the exact   reason on why they change stuff in their game unless they specifically say why it is.

[Reitrix]

9 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

It’s not his signature ability. The entire point of the Helminth system was that we weren’t taking away the most important reason to bring a specific frame.

Even without larva, Nidus still has his 1 and its crit augment, his stacks that make him immortal, his link which increases ally power strength, and his ultimate. Larva is not the “core” of his kit, and if it was, it should’ve never been his subsume.

with the same amount of range, 290% you can get ensnare over 60-70 meters, and that ability doesn’t even require line of sight.

People in this thread were talking about DE’s propensity to overnerf, this is an example of something that was overnerfed. A 25% reduction would’ve been perfectly tenable, it would’ve allowed Nidus to still have the better version of Larva, if for whatever reason you decide that’s important, without forcing the subsumed version to require a max range build to get off the ground.

There aren’t a great many frames that can use max range builds well, and of them, there’s a very select few that actually want larva in the first place. Particularly because at 290% range, most abilities are getting into the 40-60m range, and therefor, enemies will either be dead or stunned a long time before they get close to larva.

It was overnerfed, I don’t really see that as being debatable. The nerfs to roar and dispensary don’t prevent the abilities from functioning and don’t make being able to synergise with them extremely awkward.

Specially not when ensnare is allowed to exist in the state it’s in.

DE's own justification for nerfing some abilities is written in their workshop on Helminth. 

Certain abilities in player testing were overwhelmingly used. So they were diminished. Hell, even before release one of the most commonly spoken of abilities to use was Larva as everyone assumed it would be unchanged. 

Dispensary at the nerfed duration barely refunds the energy cost to cast it, which requires a higher investment in Duration to pump out more energy in a single cast. Or sacrifice a mod slot for Equilibrium. 

If you want a full power Dispensary, use Protea. 

I use my Vauban in all content with a Bastille Range of just 12 meters. Even at that size, it covers the entirety of most rooms or a sizeable chunk of it. 

Larva with a small range investment has a similar range on my Frames that use it and it's perfectly functional on them.

If Larva was built in  a way that had your frame be the origination for the yank like Pull, you'd have a leg to stand on to buff it. But you have the ability to place that Larva anywhere in your LoS. 

So as I originally said, If you want a bigger range on Larva, use Nidus. 

Just like if you want the max boost from Warcry, Roar and Eclipse you use the originals. 

[(PSN)FromOtherSpace]

Il y a 10 heures, TheArmchairThinker a dit :

And it's a pointless work when we can't see it in action. That time and resource would be better spent on something else unless we're turning warframe into a grounded combat game to see it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Between actual situation and changing the whole game how many implementation are possible?

Also : DE don't have dedicated departement for IA? Maybe they can hire 1 more people and let their other 100 work on everything else?

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Commenting on the post topic, not the resulting thread: Given DE's history of nerfing, I am extremely concerned about how they're gonna sledgehammer it, in the name of "balance." When they changed all the stances and ruined quick melee for polearms, I barely played the game for an entire year, aside from just logging in for the daily reward thing.

No amount of nerfing melee will make me use guns. (I use the Cedo to have the glaive thingy, and my secondary weapon is mostly just for show; I barely use it.)

Guns have been "underpowered" in the game since I started playing, not due to the power of the guns themselves, but by the nature of the game. It's not something pure stat balancing will change. EVEN IF guns could one-shot everything they hit, I STILL wouldn't use them.

You need to be near the enemies you kill, if you want to be sure to get the items they drop. (hunting down drops with or without vacuum, trying to go everywhere you think an enemy died, you'll invariably miss out on some of the drops.)

To farm efficiently, and complete missions in a timely manner, you need to kill swarms of enemies quickly, while most guns only hit one target at a time, and they can often take a full clip to kill a single enemy, at least when dealing with most secondary weapons.

Guns require Ammo and Reload time... when dealing with swarms. In no way am I suggesting Melee weapons should require Ammo... like the abomination of Destiny2. I do think most guns should have larger clips and ammo maximums, given they're weaker than melee anyway. (I'd personally go so far as to say, ammo should be a thing of the past.)

 

I prefer my fights to be in melee range, not sniping from a distance. A personal thing as well, that no balancing will ever address.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Commenting on the post topic, not the resulting thread: Given DE's history of nerfing, I am extremely concerned about how they're gonna sledgehammer it, in the name of "balance." When they changed all the stances and ruined quick melee for polearms, I barely played the game for an entire year, aside from just logging in for the daily reward thing.

No amount of nerfing melee will make me use guns. (I use the Cedo to have the glaive thingy, and my secondary weapon is mostly just for show; I barely use it.)

Guns have been "underpowered" in the game since I started playing, not due to the power of the guns themselves, but by the nature of the game. It's not something pure stat balancing will change. EVEN IF guns could one-shot everything they hit, I STILL wouldn't use them.

You need to be near the enemies you kill, if you want to be sure to get the items they drop. (hunting down drops with or without vacuum, trying to go everywhere you think an enemy died, you'll invariably miss out on some of the drops.)

To farm efficiently, and complete missions in a timely manner, you need to kill swarms of enemies quickly, while most guns only hit one target at a time, and they can often take a full clip to kill a single enemy, at least when dealing with most secondary weapons.

Guns require Ammo and Reload time... when dealing with swarms. In no way am I suggesting Melee weapons should require Ammo... like the abomination of Destiny2. I do think most guns should have larger clips and ammo maximums, given they're weaker than melee anyway. (I'd personally go so far as to say, ammo should be a thing of the past.)

 

I prefer my fights to be in melee range, not sniping from a distance. A personal thing as well, that no balancing will ever address.

It feels like Warframe just needs more QoL updates from that perspective.

Instead of enemies dropping loot and instead of vacuum, loot should be added to our inventory automatically upon death like in other games.

When DE buffed base damage and removed the damage multiplier on the combo counter on melee weapons, I thought they were going to change combo counter into a debuff counter.

Old Melee:

Skana Base Damage 35, multiplied by combo counter.

What I thought DE was gonna do:

Skana Base Damage 120, light attacks divided by combo counter and heavy attacks multiplied by combo counter.

That would encourage people to chain light attacks with guns and heavy attacks, but it didn't go in that direction. Just spam E, except some of the stances aren't as fluid as quick melee.

 

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That would encourage people to chain light attacks with guns and heavy attacks, but it didn't go in that direction.

Likely because decreasing your damage as your counter grows is a terrible idea. 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Likely because decreasing your damage as your counter grows is a terrible idea. 

Combo counter used to multiply damage, now it doesn't.

Now it's just an arbitrary number that only matters if you run Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

[Jarriaga]

44 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Combo counter used to multiply damage, now it doesn't.

Now it's just an arbitrary number that only matters if you run Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

Doing nothing is better than making you weaker as the number grows.

[George_PPS]

Guns should be buffed massively to make them match what melees can do, not nerfing melees! 
I am tired of seeing the massive nerf from melee 2.0 to 3.0 and now more nerfs coming? 
DE please this is a PvE game not PvP!

[SenorClipClop]

6 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Guns should be buffed massively to make them match what melees can do, not nerfing melees! 

The problem with this idea is that melee in its current form makes this game very, very easy. If every weapon were buffed to the same level, how much more braindead would this game become?

[Aldain]

18 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

The problem with this idea is that melee in its current form makes this game very, very easy. If every weapon were buffed to the same level, how much more braindead would this game become?

Also, it still wouldn't help the problem of Single-Target vs AoE ranged weapons, if anything it would only make single target weapons even worse because then even a base Tonkor could kill things faster than any rapid fire weapon because it barely needs to aim.

[Aratir]

They will balance it to be on par with primary weapon damage and they will disable true damage on every cc ability.

[killerJoke66]

8 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Guns should be buffed massively to make them match what melees can do, not nerfing melees! 
I am tired of seeing the massive nerf from melee 2.0 to 3.0 and now more nerfs coming? 
DE please this is a PvE game not PvP!

tbf tho they did kinda make it up for the inital huge overall melee nerfs with nerfing the enemy as well by a lot but there was a period of time no less than 3 months that we basically didnt have much damage against high level enemies , like i said i dont exactly remember how many months was that but it left a bad taste in my mouth as most builds were trying to accomplish a heavy attack focus build that barely functioned not to mention that was against enemies with old broken scaling armor ... 

[killerJoke66]

9 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Guns should be buffed massively to make them match what melees can do, not nerfing melees! 
I am tired of seeing the massive nerf from melee 2.0 to 3.0 and now more nerfs coming? 
DE please this is a PvE game not PvP!

(continueing my post) Sometimes DE does these things with the blurry visions of trying create a more sound game where players dont just go levels beyond 120 or 200 or even 100 (i guess they kinda wanna dial back to old times) but then do the reverse with introducing more power creeped stuff ?   (yes it is because they are trying to also cater to everyone)

I am totally fine for a pursuit for endgame , but at this rate changing things one at a time doesnt work because even tho most things in this game while may seem broken(in overpowered sense)  when you really scratch the surface there are only really handful of small ''too good'' things compared to vast majority of whats been left unused , mods , frames , even amongst melees , primaries and secondaries being reduced to primers , when you break those down you understand more and more that unused and underperforming things in this game is pretty large . (even primaries and secondaries alone make huge part of the items) 

And so is my guess on why nerfs in warframe generally arent as welcomed compared to other games because everything is so glued together with duct tapes and wires that if you take even one thing at a time it all just falls down and you see bad sides of the picture more clearly . If they ever want to adjust what level vs enemies we should be playing and going from that , they need to basically reconstruct the whole system that was put behind 7-8 years because at this point there are not seperate things , thus my prediction on if they try to continue to change things one at a time with this game being that old and large , there will always be unrest 

[killerJoke66]

people in this forum sometimes mention the ourage and backlash on pablo suggesting nerf on saryn back then , and (some , very few even) forum users time to time use that as a blame goat to why things tend to not change , but they dont take into acount why people can become so vile about that , although i'd say it is good to see that for the last years they have ben doing frame reworks to make them more viable (at least) 

[Ianto]

Melee weapons only scale better than than ranged weapons because of mods like weeping wounds, bloodrush and CO.

If you want the easiest way to balance guns without ham-fisted nerfs, just reduce the percentages a bit & make these mods apply bonuses to both Melee and ranged weapons. 

If CO is on your melee and you prime an enemy with status, CO works on the gun too. Hitting a target by gun or blade builds combo and Blood rush and weeping wounds from the melee also work for the gun. As I said, you'd have to bring the values down a bit, obviously, but I have no doubt you are doing that anyway.

It would fix a bunch of problems.
 

1. You wouldn't need to rework all the gun mods because the power increase would come from mods we all already use on our melee anyway. 

2. We don't need to farm new gun mods as the point investment will be on the melee weapons. 

3. The extra mod slots melee have to use to house these mods will allow the guns to keep pace by using pure damage mods. This will offset the AOE nature of melee.

4. If you can shoot distant targets to keep the combo counter up you don't need to use Naramon on every single frame to keep the combo counter up, so we can actually use the others again.

5. You can use the combo system to buff secondary attacks on guns like trumna etc, that have an alt fire, to function like melee heavy attacks. A Massive chunk of damage at the expense of combo counter in case you are in a pinch.
 

I personally think that a playstyle that promotes using both weapon types in unison to keep a constant momentum of battle up, (which is what the combo counter is *supposed* to do anyway) would be far more in keeping with the spirit of the game. The combo counter goes from being an arbitrary number to being more in line with action games like DMC.

 

This way, guns improve, melee doesn't get hammered and both weapon types are used situationally, as they should be. Freely switching between them all is half the fun of warframe.

 

[Slayer-.]

Damn this thread is out to 7 pages and still going, no one really knows what DE will do. 

 Holy stale beer Batman, I'm buying popcorn to settle back to read the Mount Everest of forum threads there'll be after the end of the world tweaking to melee.

Spoiler

The End is Nigh!

 

 

[quxier]

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The problem with this idea is that melee in its current form makes this game very, very easy. If every weapon were buffed to the same level, how much more braindead would this game become?

Bigger health, armor etc won't make this game much harder/easier.