Melee Nerf Concern

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The problem with this idea is that melee in its current form makes this game very, very easy. If every weapon were buffed to the same level, how much more braindead would this game become?

Not to mention that a melee rage mode is eventually coming (Assuming DE didn't can this idea), which will likely work as a temporary melee buff. Are people going to then ask for a gun rage mode? Where does the powercreep matching end?

[Jarriaga]

57 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Damn this thread is out to 7 pages and still going, no one really knows what DE will do. 

 Holy stale beer Batman, I'm buying popcorn to settle back to read the Mount Everest of forum threads there'll be after the end of the world tweaking to melee.

  Hide contents

The End is Nigh!

 

 

If we go by their own words on devstream 152 (February) then we can expect for melee attack speed to be nerfed so hard that you'll be able to see your attack animations after mods. They also mentioned they were going to remove forced staggers from stances in that devstream... And they did. Thus, it is reasonable to expect a heavy attack speed nerf.

[Jarriaga]

58 minutes ago, quxier said:

Bigger health, armor etc won't make this game much harder/easier.

 

 

It actually does. Bigger health pools means higher TTK, which gives enemies time to retaliate. Multiply this by the number of enemies that would have been already dead otherwise and it does make the game feel more difficult.

[Slayer-.]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If we go by their own words on devstream 152 (February) then we can expect for melee attack speed to be nerfed so hard that you'll be able to see your attack animations after mods. They also mentioned they were going to remove forced staggers from stances in that devstream... And they did. Thus, it is reasonable to expect a heavy attack speed nerf.

I was sure they talked about stacking speed mods, it shouldn't effect berserker builds as much.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, Slayer-. said:

I was sure they talked about stacking speed mods, it shouldn't effect berserker builds as much.

Thing is, they likely know most people use berserker alone, or with arcane strike at most. I think they are going to cap attack speed at 2 regardless of the source. This will also be a direct nerf to Gauss, Volt, Wisp and Valkyr.

[Slayer-.]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Thing is, they likely know most people use berserker alone, or with arcane strike at most. I think they are going to cap attack speed at 2 regardless of the source. This will also be a direct nerf to Gauss, Volt, Wisp and Valkyr.

Oh well not much we can do really, I'll sit back and see how it goes, DE do what they want.

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Thing is, they likely know most people use berserker alone, or with arcane strike at most. I think they are going to cap attack speed at 2 regardless of the source. This will also be a direct nerf to Gauss, Volt, Wisp and Valkyr.

Wouldnt that more be a buff to those Frames when you look at it. They'd be unique and have the potential to circumvent the 2x restriction unless it is percent increase restrictions. Kinda like Vex armor letting you ignore base damage mods. Those frames would allow you to squeeze more out of melee speed than others since strength interacts with their percentage increase of AS. So instead of sitting with say primed fury and zerker for the base 55% and multiplicative 75% a Valkyr could stack strength to go beyond the 55% mark easily and utilize the zerkers multiplicative 75% ontop of it.

edit: Or did you mean they'll cap attack speed at 2.0 attacks per seconds? If so, yeah that would be a nerf.

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Wouldnt that more be a buff to those Frames when you look at it. They'd be unique and have the potential to circumvent the 2x restriction unless it is percent increase restrictions. Kinda like Vex armor letting you ignore base damage mods. Those frames would allow you to squeeze more out of melee speed than others since strength interacts with their percentage increase of AS. So instead of sitting with say primed fury and zerker for the base 55% and multiplicative 75% a Valkyr could stack strength to go beyond the 55% mark easily and utilize the zerkers multiplicative 75% ontop of it.

Capped at 2 means capped at 2. It doesn't matter how you get there (Abilities, mods, arcanes).

Capped at 2 regardless of source would mean than Valkyr at 200 power strength and a weapon with attack speed of 1 would cap when activating Warcry.

Which means she would get no benefit from Arcane Strike, Berserker or Primed Fury if they are in the build because the weapon would already be at 2 because of Warcry. That is a heavy nerf to those frames in particular if DE don't make an exception that allows for ability attack speed to stack with mod/arcane attack speed.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

Capped at 2 regardless of source would mean than Valkyr at 200 power strength and a weapon with attack speed of 1 would cap when activating Warcry. Which means it would get no benefit from Arcane Strike, Berserker or Primed Fury if they are in the build because the weapon would already be at 2 because of Warcry.

Ah yeah. Forgive my sunday slowness. I figured that was what you went after I posted my reply. When I first read it in my sunday haze I got it to mean 2 sources of attack speed buffs i.e arcane+zerk, WC+zerk, WC+arcane, WC+fury etc. No freakin idea how I summed it up like that in my head since what you say makes perfect sense already.

Cheers!

[(NSW)Greybones]

23 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It actually does. Bigger health pools means higher TTK, which gives enemies time to retaliate. Multiply this by the number of enemies that would have been already dead otherwise and it does make the game feel more difficult.

Can attest to this 👍.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Bigger health, armor etc won't make this game much harder/easier.

 

 

You might be surprised at the difference it can make. 

(I’d fit double quotes into the one post instead of making two individual posts, but I can’t do that on my phone 😕)

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Can attest to this 👍.

Indeed. It's just that people don't like to recognize it because it's inconvenient in a game that is deeply tied to farming efficiency. Bullet sponges are not fun, but they at least have the opportunity to fight back.

Call it "artificial difficulty" or whatever, but the fact is that enemies that fight back are more difficult than enemies that can't fight back at all.

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ah yeah. Forgive my sunday slowness. I figured that was what you went after I posted my reply. When I first read it in my sunday haze I got it to mean 2 sources of attack speed buffs i.e arcane+zerk, WC+zerk, WC+arcane, WC+fury etc. No freakin idea how I summed it up like that in my head since what you say makes perfect sense already.

Cheers!

Cheers indeed.

[Aldain]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

Indeed. It's just that people don't like to recognize it because it's inconvenient. Bullet sponges are not fun, but they at least have the opportunity to fight back.

Call it "artificial difficulty" or whatever, but the fact is that enemies that fight back are more difficult than enemies that can't fight back at all.

The problem is that's a very fine line to walk.

The point between "sufficiently durable" and "Wolf of Saturn Six" is a hot mess right now because of the massive gaps in damage potential that players can hit.

Just cranking the numbers up doesn't solve the problem, all it does is make more and more weapons naturally less useful, it also does nothing to address how after a certain point enemy damage becomes so obtusely high that no amount of Armor or damage reduction on the player's side has any value, which then just promotes hard CC lockdown stratgies which only make enemies who fall under that "damage sponge" umbrella more irritating rather than difficult because they are then reduced to sandbags.

Warframe is lacking in parity, it needs some sort of reasonable expectation of the player that doesn't devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after the star chart is done.

[Jarriaga]

31 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The problem is that's a very fine line to walk.

The point between "sufficiently durable" and "Wolf of Saturn Six" is a hot mess right now because of the massive gaps in damage potential that players can hit.

Just cranking the numbers up doesn't solve the problem, all it does is make more and more weapons naturally less useful, it also does nothing to address how after a certain point enemy damage becomes so obtusely high that no amount of Armor or damage reduction on the player's side has any value, which then just promotes hard CC lockdown stratgies which only make enemies who fall under that "damage sponge" umbrella more irritating rather than difficult because they are then reduced to sandbags.

Warframe is lacking in parity, it needs some sort of reasonable expectation of the player that doesn't devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after the star chart is done.

I agree with all of your points. That's the other side of the same coin, and it is caused by the damage disparity between, say, Baruuk and Hydroid. Making an enemy that is sufficiently durable for Baruuk automatically means Wolf of Saturn Six levels for Hydroid. Damage equalizers per frame (In which enemies take percentage damage depending on the frame damaging it) would solve this problem, but it would then create a new problem: All frames feeling like they deal the same damage.

[Aldain]

15 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Damage equalizers per frame (In which enemies take percentage damage depending on the frame damaging it) would solve this problem, but it would then create a new problem: All frames feeling like they deal the same damage.

The big thing is that I personally believe that all frames that are focused on dealing damage should deal roughly the same damage with some variance based on if they deal some extra effects, the way to avoid homogenization is making differences in how the damage is delivered not in dramatic gaps between the damage which creates clearly superior options and as a result becomes an illusion of choice.

Not everything needs to be the same in method of delivery, but with how Warframe as a whole is designed they should at least be comparable in effectiveness to some relative degree.

[quxier]

55 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It actually does. Bigger health pools means higher TTK, which gives enemies time to retaliate. Multiply this by the number of enemies that would have been already dead otherwise and it does make the game feel more difficult.

25 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You might be surprised at the difference it can make.

The important word were "much". Of course if you cannot nuke all enemies it will increase difficulty.

After certain point it doesn't change too much:

- you can nuke enemies with 1k HP

- you have slight problem with 3k HP

- you have big problems with 6k HP

- you die regularly with 10k HP

What change is between 10k and 100k? Almost 0.

For me Eidolons, Orb stupid-timer Mother or Steel path (that haven't been made for that reasons) are not more challenging than ~100 level Kuva Lich missions.

 

52 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The problem is that's a very fine line to walk.

The point between "sufficiently durable" and "Wolf of Saturn Six" is a hot mess right now because of the massive gaps in damage potential that players can hit.

Just cranking the numbers up doesn't solve the problem, all it does is make more and more weapons naturally less useful, it also does nothing to address how after a certain point enemy damage becomes so obtusely high that no amount of Armor or damage reduction on the player's side has any value, which then just promotes hard CC lockdown stratgies which only make enemies who fall under that "damage sponge" umbrella more irritating rather than difficult because they are then reduced to sandbags.

Warframe is lacking in parity, it needs some sort of reasonable expectation of the player that doesn't devolve into "nuke or be nuked" after the star chart is done.

This one is good explanation!

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Indeed. It's just that people don't like to recognize it because it's inconvenient in a game that is deeply tied to farming efficiency. Bullet sponges are not fun, but they at least have the opportunity to fight back.

Call it "artificial difficulty" or whatever, but the fact is that enemies that fight back are more difficult than enemies that can't fight back at all.

Shorter TTK's also have their value.  They usually reward more frenetic, high-speed gameplay.

 

The issue is that, with Warframe, a lot of 'squishier' frames and even mid-durability frames get killed really fast in 'high level' content whilst enemies can take several seconds to die. A more tactical, long-TTK kind of experience is fun. So is a kinetic, short-TTK experience. Fighting high-health enemies whilst you individually have very little health is just frustrating. Being high health when everything dies in one hit is... playing Inaros in low-level content right now. Player EHP needs to match the intended experience to some degree.

[SenorClipClop]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Bigger health, armor etc won't make this game much harder/easier.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. But if you mean something like, "Don't nerf melee, just buff up guns and also buff enemy Health, Armor etc." that is just nerfing melee with extra steps. And a lot of extra work. It's suggesting to make every other number in the game bigger just because you don't like the idea of making a few numbers smaller, with the result being that all numbers be brought to around the same relative level.

[SenorClipClop]

6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Are people going to then ask for a gun rage mode?

Oh, you know it. Players are never going to stop asking for more power. First rule of a ton of gaming communities.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb SenorClipClop:

Oh, you know it. Players are never going to stop asking for more power. First rule of a ton of gaming communities.

if you look at the profiles, they are mostly new players. they don't know a lot of tactics or don't have a good gear. so it's okay to complain. they are like little children.
nobody asks for tips or whatever. just like in real life.

i haven't seen a mr30 player complain about low damage. because before posting he probably has to laugh under the table for an hour.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. But if you mean something like, "Don't nerf melee, just buff up guns and also buff enemy Health, Armor etc." that is just nerfing melee with extra steps. And a lot of extra work. It's suggesting to make every other number in the game bigger just because you don't like the idea of making a few numbers smaller, with the result being that all numbers be brought to around the same relative level.

First I don't mean buffing enemy HP/Armor etc, only guns' damage (if you want to put words in my mouth).

But what I really meant was that increasing/decreasing some numbers won't change too much. The problem, in my opinion, lays somewhere else.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

When DE nerfs something, more likely than not, that thing being nerfed will require a lot more investment to return to its former glory or will never get there until further notice. For examples, we have

-Ember WoF Nerf

- Literally everything about Gas Procs

-Blast Procs

-Simulor (I started playing after Garuda was released and couldn't find any info on this, but it used to be crazy apparently)

Telos Boltace (Again, don't know how strong these truly were, but I've heard a lot about them)

-Naramon (Shadow Step, I believe)

Zenurik (Something about energy)

-Tonkor w/ Zephyr combo

-Kuva Bramma max ammo nerf, ammo pickup nerf, and cluster bomb reduction nerf

I'm hoping for the best, just like a lot of you, but I'm just saying that this is the most likely outcome

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)HollowCube987 said:

When DE nerfs something, more likely than not, that thing being nerfed will become close to if not unusable. Just look at

-Ember

-Gas Procs

-Blast Procs

-Simulor

-Tonkor

-Kuva Bramma (but I disliked the Bramma so I don't mind too much)

I'm hoping for the best, just like a lot of you, even though my guilty pleasure might be brought down in terms of power (Goodbye, Redeemer). I'm just saying that this is the most likely outcome

 

Unusable for what? Are we talking maximum efficiency or endurance runs or Steel Path or…?

[Kaotyke]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Unusable for what? Are we talking maximum efficiency or endurance runs or Steel Path or…?

The fact that Ember and Bramma are in the list makes me think this guy is just throwing things at the wall.