Melee Nerf Concern

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I think you misunderstood my post. I meant what AI can do if a frame can destroy everything within 50 meter radius.

Yep . I understood perfectly then ^^ 

[SenorClipClop]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)HollowCube987 said:

Zenurik (Something about energy)

What's wrong with Energizing Dash?

[Surbusken]

"We continue to build the game based on player feedback".

 

I mean it's quite common to have something like focus groups or test screenings in other industries, to regulate your product actually based on feedback, before release.

Not in this industry though. It must be really weird to work on something like 'railjack taxi' for a year, knowing people would have voted it out if they could, but you still had to do the work and then just hope to get away with it.

I wonder who they blame in that situation.

So as far as far I am concerned, they deserve every bit of flack they get after the nerfs, for totally ignoring the players.

And based on the current state of different mods, damage balance or frame balance, I don't think anyone can argue they seem in control of the situation, know what they are doing and know where to take it.

What is your favorite memory, of them coming out with a creative solution to a critical problem. I don't have any, not one.

 

I am ultimately split on the subject, looking forward to people telling them "we told you 5000 times a day" (as per tradition) and laugh at it, wondering how many years till they wake up, or if ever, but I am also sad for the people who are going to get angry and frustrated with the game now, I know exactly what it is like when they ruin the few things you actually enjoy.

People are attached to their favorite items, frames, weapons or game modes, which is what you want, then you just throw those people under the bus and for what.

Sometimes I wonder if they are subconsciously trying to make the game terrible for everyone, as payback for all the times their feelings got hurt over the years, that's how it feels anyway lol.

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

So as far as far I am concerned, they deserve every bit of flack they get after the nerfs, for totally ignoring the players.

What players do you reckon will be interpreted as having been ignored after the nerfs? Not saying there's no ignoring; some ideas are at complete odds with each other or DE's vision/capability, so someone's got to be cut out.

[Surbusken]

25 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What players do you reckon will be interpreted as having been ignored after the nerfs? Not saying there's no ignoring; some ideas are at complete odds with each other or DE's vision/capability, so someone's got to be cut out.

In the developer's official statements, none.

In reality, everyone who enjoys melee combat or even anyone who was hoping they would spend their time on something productive instead, lol.

If you asked 1000 players, if they could have the developers work on anything they want, but could only pick that one thing or a melee nerf - outside the 3 most elite developer apologists, you'd go 1000 for 1000 against a melee nerf.

I am saying, you don't just factor in how bad of an idea nerfing is in itself, you also factor in what that same time could have been spent on instead. That's the real cost.

When you go after something no one asked for, you are ignoring everyone who asked for something else.

 

Going back to my previous example, you talk to the community first, "look guys, we can't complete our own goal for seamless railjack, because of x,y, z limitations".

"Do you want us to create a budget version and try to fake it or do something else?"

"Should we nerf melee or work on something productive?"

Then after stage 1 being ignored, the players are also ignored during the development stage, not being consulted or given options even. And finally ignored again after release, where the changes are staying no matter how terrible they are or what people think of them.

I guess the easiest way to avoid criticism is by not listening?

[(NSW)Greybones]

11 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

I guess the easiest way to avoid criticism is by not listening?

🤔 You reckon they aren’t hearing the criticism? The final actions taken might differ to the loudest requests, but I’d be surprised if they didn’t know about them

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

6 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Going back to my previous example, you talk to the community first, "look guys, we can't complete our own goal for seamless railjack, because of x,y, z limitations".

"Do you want us to create a budget version and try to fake it or do something else?"

"Should we nerf melee or work on something productive?"

Then after stage 1 being ignored, the players are also ignored during the development stage, not being consulted or given options even. And finally ignored again after release, where the changes are staying no matter how terrible they are or what people think of them.

I guess the easiest way to avoid criticism is by not listening?

Warframe's development is iterative, but instead of getting a more refined product, parts of the game fall apart at the foundation as new mods and powers are slapped into the game for the rule of cool instead of balance. DE throws in band-aid mods instead of addressing the core issues and continues to add in half-baked features to drum up hype.

The wall that is enemy armor scaling has created tiers of damage types with Bleed at the top. Changing armor scaling did not change the disparity between damage types and last year's status rework only narrowed the meta.

The plethora of damage multipliers players can stack has lead to enemy band-aids such as invincibility phases, DPS caps, Damage Reduction based on DPS and status immunity.

Player damage and enemy eHP is all over the place.

Warframe's damage system has gotten needlessly more complicated, yet shallower and cheesier over time.

DE only reworks numbers to shut up players and works on flashy new content to drive up hype.

Somehow, keeping Warframe afloat is different than making Warframe good.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The plethora of damage multipliers players can stack has lead to enemy band-aids such as invincibility phases, DPS caps, Damage Reduction based on DPS and status immunity.

I like your use of the word "Can" here 😋

 

[vegetosayajin]

5 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Sometimes I wonder if they are subconsciously trying to make the game terrible for everyone, as payback for all the times their feelings got hurt over the years, that's how it feels anyway lol.

It may feel this way but I suppose it's just superficial assessment. In the core of it all is always money in some way or another, I don't think they care at all(positive or negative). Devstreams are a good show and nothing more imo.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

On 2021-06-07 at 12:10 PM, SenorClipClop said:

What's wrong with Energizing Dash?

Nothing's currently wrong with energizing dash. I read that a Zenurik power that gave energy was being used before the focus rework, but the sources I checked didn't say what had players so upset

[SenorClipClop]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)HollowCube987 said:

Nothing's currently wrong with energizing dash. I read that a Zenurik power that gave energy was being used before the focus rework, but the sources I checked didn't say what had players so upset

I don't even remember what the old Zenurik Energy-granting feature was, but iirc the rage from some players was over fears the devs would nerf our Energy gain from it into something useless. Rage born of fear of a nerf, not a nerf itself.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2021-06-01 at 5:33 AM, Loza03 said:

As somebody who very much got into Warframe because of Melee, I do feel for you. When I first started playing I had very restrictive views regarding shooter games, and wouldn't have started without Warframe's robust melee combat.

 

That having been said, Nerfs are important. Melee, as is, is a huge outlier and needs to be brought in line. Buffing literally the entire game up to its standard would be an absurd undertaking, and it'd exacerbate other problems that have in part caused this issue, like armour scaling.

[Loza03]

39 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't even remember what the old Zenurik Energy-granting feature was, but iirc the rage from some players was over fears the devs would nerf our Energy gain from it into something useless. Rage born of fear of a nerf, not a nerf itself.

IIRC, you'd start gaining energy after popping the Zenurik Spoiler-Super, which could also give energy. It was permanent, but also selfish.

 

I don't think Zenurik itself is really a problem, as much as just... energy as a whole could probably be reworked to be more interesting and self-balancing rather than just hooking your frame up to the basically-free win juice or rely on pitiful, uncommon 25 energy drops.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

IIRC, you'd start gaining energy after popping the Zenurik Spoiler-Super, which could also give energy. It was permanent, but also selfish.

 

I don't think Zenurik itself is really a problem, as much as just... energy as a whole could probably be reworked to be more interesting and self-balancing rather than just hooking your frame up to the basically-free win juice or rely on pitiful, uncommon 25 energy drops.

That's an idea for some of the less popular damage types like impact or magnetic.

On proc, gain energy, 5+5% of enemy level.

If a damage type isn't the best for damage by a long shot, it needs utility on par with some weaker Warframe powers or Operator Schools.

 

[quxier]

47 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

On proc, gain energy, 5+5% of enemy level.

This should be on hit/kill not tied to specific status. Maybe +X to energy per hit/kill would be "nice".

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

No melee equipped meta?

Garuda's liking this.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

This should be on hit/kill not tied to specific status. Maybe +X to energy per hit/kill would be "nice".

The only status effects players care about are Bleed, Viral and maybe armor strip.

Impact melee weapons that generally don't have forced Bleed stances are already questionable against Grineer for Steel Path.

Status effects should ideally be an alternative to Warframe powers and Operator Schools to round out a kit.

[quxier]

56 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The only status effects players care about are Bleed, Viral and maybe armor strip.

Impact melee weapons that generally don't have forced Bleed stances are already questionable against Grineer for Steel Path.

Status effects should ideally be an alternative to Warframe powers and Operator Schools to round out a kit.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that tying energy restoration to status is bad idea

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that tying energy restoration to status is bad idea

As long as the current methods still exist, why?

[quxier]

25 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

As long as the current methods still exist, why?

Because you somehow forcing players to use pick-your-useless-now-status status if they want to get energy.

Imagine if they are going magnetic. You can pick Heat, Toxin or Gas. Gas isn't good now. Toxin might be  good (haven't really tested) but Heat is very good. Magnetic isn't something very useful. So you are reducing number of statuses if they want energy-per-status.

[Tiltskillet]

22 minutes ago, quxier said:

Because you somehow forcing players to use pick-your-useless-now-status status if they want to get energy.

Imagine if they are going magnetic. You can pick Heat, Toxin or Gas. Gas isn't good now. Toxin might be  good (haven't really tested) but Heat is very good. Magnetic isn't something very useful. So you are reducing number of statuses if they want energy-per-status.

Maybe I'm not following the conversation.  It's an -additional- option, right?

[quxier]

58 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Maybe I'm not following the conversation.  It's an -additional- option, right?

Yes but no... little joke.

You are adding new option to "long" list of things that restores energy. However some players don't have access to many energy restorers. For example new players don't have Zenurik, Helminth and those players use frames/companions that don't restore energy. Those players may pick expensive (at that time) energy pads or your new magnetic. Magnetic doesn't require additional resources so it will be picked by some players.

So, depending on situation you may be forced to use it.

[Tiltskillet]

35 minutes ago, quxier said:

Yes but no... little joke.

You are adding new option to "long" list of things that restores energy. However some players don't have access to many energy restorers. For example new players don't have Zenurik, Helminth and those players use frames/companions that don't restore energy. Those players may pick expensive (at that time) energy pads or your new magnetic. Magnetic doesn't require additional resources so it will be picked by some players.

So, depending on situation you may be forced to use it.

 "Depending on the situation you may want to use it" is more accurate.   Anyway,  out of these scenarios...

 A.  Having the options to use energy pads -and/or- just not cast abilities.

B.  Having the options to use energy pads -and/or- just not cast abilities -and/or- equip magnetic status.

"B" wins.

 

[Herisen_Version1.0]

2021/6/1 PM7点10分 , KVenom 说:

RESPONSIBLY

Are u joking? My bro. 😅 it's impossible  i promise.

 

[KVenom]

Tell that to most other Devs.