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Devstream 155 - Railjack vs. Liches


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In Devstream 155, the DE team mentioned that they plan for liches to retreat into Railjack when you figure out their Requiem pattern, and that you will need to run a special mission to confront and defeat them. I have a few concerns about this idea.

I've been fighting liches a lot recently, and it feels like I end up playing solo 4 out of 5 missions. Not because I'm choosing to play solo, but because matchmaking can't find anyone to add to my mission. I think that this is a weakness of the way Lich missions are structured; they are separate from the normal missions, and you can only join them when you have a lich, and there isn't any recent content for liches at the moment, so not many people are playing the lich missions. This feels a bit lonely. Also, it means that I really need carefully-tuned top tier builds to run these missions, and some mission types are nearly impossible unless you bring one of the small number of Warframes which can complete that mission by themselves. Interception is especially problematic here; it feels like I am just required to use Nova, as no other Warframe can protect more than one node at a time.

These problems are not ideal, but are also not impossible to handle or overly frustrating. However, having a special mission to defeat your lich which you can only run when you are ready to beat them will make these problems worse, and having that mission be in Railjack will also make these problems worse. It's already hard enough for matchmaking to find people who 1) have a lich and 2) are running the same mission, but if you also require that those people 3) are ready to beat their lich, and 4) are in Railjack, then I feel that you are basically saying "matchmaking will never work for this mission type."

I recognize that this isn't a problem for people in clans or who are handling liches together with friends, but I feel that there must be a way to make these missions more approachable for semi-solo players such as myself. Here are a few ideas I have for how to do this.

  1. When a lich controls a node on the starchart, don't have a separate mission on that node for hunting lich minions - make the thralls show up in the normal version of that mission, like the way that synthesis targets show up when one of the players running a mission has a task from Simaris. This will make it much easier to find people in matchmaking, and will also encourage experienced players to play lower-level missions with newer players.
     
  2. I recognize that idea #1 could create a problem for less experienced players, because at present the level of all the enemies in the mission depends on the rank of the lich for the host player; it would be an awful experience for an MR 4 player to have to deal with level 100+ enemies on Mars just because matchmaking paired them with an MR 29 who's hunting a rank 5 lich. To fix this, change it so that the level of most enemies in these missions does not increase when you are hunting a lich, and only the lich's minions have elevated levels. This also makes the minions more interesting, more notable and individually challenging, but also something that a lower-level player could avoid.
     
  3. When DE creates the mission which allows you to hunt your lich, allow players to run that mission even when they don't have a lich. For players who don't have a lich, the game should generate a lich for them to fight in that mission. A player who doesn't have a lich doesn't have a requiem sequence to kill one, so the mission also should have a different outcome when they beat that generated lich - something to say that you're inconveniencing them and not actually killing or converting them. To attract players to run that mission when they don't have a lich, it should also have some kind of special reward. (probably Kuva plus something else)
     
  4. One more idea, inspired by the indirect multiplayer you see in games like Dark Souls and Returnal - when a player who does not have a lich runs the mission to kill a lich, instead of generating the lich randomly, use a lich from some other player. Maybe prioritize liches from people on your friends list or in your clan, but it should allow any lich from any other player in the game. And then if the player running the kill-a-lich mission succeeds and beats that lich, then the player who actually owns that lich should get some small but significant bonus, like free murmurs, with a message saying that the first player helped them by fighting their lich. This should include the first player's name, to help create a feeling of connection with the other Tenno out there in the game.
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50 minutes ago, (PSN)digitalgabeg said:

are in Railjack

Why not just make it into 3 different location so player could pick whatever they want:

- RJ

- Open world (I guess Orb valis or whatever it was called)

- Normal, old corpus mission, only non-endless (e.g. capture, exterminate)

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hace 1 hora, (PSN)digitalgabeg dijo:

it feels like I am just required to use Nova, as no other Warframe can protect more than one node at a time.

Nah, the only time you will really struggle with a mission is Excavation since the objectives are completely exposed to enemy fire and can be destroyed in 2-4 hits.

hace 1 hora, (PSN)digitalgabeg dijo:

I recognize that this isn't a problem for people in clans or who are handling liches together with friends, but I feel that there must be a way to make these missions more approachable for semi-solo players such as myself. Here are a few ideas I have for how to do this.

You know, "rEcrUitMenT ChAT eXIST".

hace 1 hora, (PSN)digitalgabeg dijo:

When a lich controls a node on the starchart, don't have a separate mission on that node for hunting lich minions - make the thralls show up in the normal version of that mission, like the way that synthesis targets show up when one of the players running a mission has a task from Simaris. This will make it much easier to find people in matchmaking, and will also encourage experienced players to play lower-level missions with newer players.

Seems right, I remember how players wanted the Lich to send death-squads to hunt you on normal missions so it would certainly be nice.

hace 1 hora, (PSN)digitalgabeg dijo:

I recognize that idea #1 could create a problem for less experienced players, because at present the level of all the enemies in the mission depends on the rank of the lich for the host player; it would be an awful experience for an MR 4 player to have to deal with level 100+ enemies on Mars just because matchmaking paired them with an MR 29 who's hunting a rank 5 lich. To fix this, change it so that the level of most enemies in these missions does not increase when you are hunting a lich, and only the lich's minions have elevated levels. This also makes the minions more interesting, more notable and individually challenging, but also something that a lower-level player could avoid.

Possible, I would like to see a 10-20 level increase on enemy units while keeping the thralls at the current level they can spawn

hace 1 hora, (PSN)digitalgabeg dijo:

When DE creates the mission which allows you to hunt your lich, allow players to run that mission even when they don't have a lich. For players who don't have a lich, the game should generate a lich for them to fight in that mission. A player who doesn't have a lich doesn't have a requiem sequence to kill one, so the mission also should have a different outcome when they beat that generated lich - something to say that you're inconveniencing them and not actually killing or converting them. To attract players to run that mission when they don't have a lich, it should also have some kind of special reward. (probably Kuva plus something else)

No, you can actually run kuva lich missions if you dont have any active without any consequence and imo should stay that way, if you dont want a lich yet but also want to help someone to kill theirs the game shouldnt force you to have anything more than a good equipment and also no it shouldnt attract players who dont have a lich to play that mission because its a face to face against the players lich. Its like entering a gladiators 1v1 battle to help someone to kill the other guy and get rewarded for it.

hace 2 horas, (PSN)digitalgabeg dijo:

One more idea, inspired by the indirect multiplayer you see in games like Dark Souls and Returnal - when a player who does not have a lich runs the mission to kill a lich, instead of generating the lich randomly, use a lich from some other player. Maybe prioritize liches from people on your friends list or in your clan, but it should allow any lich from any other player in the game. And then if the player running the kill-a-lich mission succeeds and beats that lich, then the player who actually owns that lich should get some small but significant bonus, like free murmurs, with a message saying that the first player helped them by fighting their lich. This should include the first player's name, to help create a feeling of connection with the other Tenno out there in the game.

Very, very interesting but as I stated before, the Neptune/Saturn showdown should stay as a face to face against the lich(s) and if a player who doesnt own a lich enters the mission that player will be there to just help killing the other lich(s).

However, this could be an interesting mechanic for annoying friends, say you have  a lich on rank 3 then this lich could actually invade some of your friends on regular missions like the Wolf of Saturn Six does and if your friend defeats the lich then you get murmurs and your friend screaming from its house because almost killed the rescue target and blah blah blah

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