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SP spawn-rates on REGULAR missions


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2 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

But isn't Warframe a game of "Using the right tool for the job"? Warframes like Nyx(Chaos) or Octavia(Resonator+Stealth) make any interception trivial. Even better if subsuming Octavia's ability onto Nyx for extra safety(maybe even overkill too lol). Just confuse everyone, cap points and don't kill enemies. Let the control counter go up, with enemies aimlessly wandering around without desire to cap points. Those who would try to cap - just either kill or cast Chaos again so they forget it.

This makes Interception trivial. Yes, even Steel Path. Yes, even as a solo. And I'm sure there are a few more ways to do it(Sleep Equinox? Ivara sleep arrows+stealth?), those two just the easiest to do and from the top of my head just now.

There's a limit to using the 'right tool for the job'. Reasonable expectations. It should make something reasonably-possible easier, not be used to treat something almost impossible. You don't want to be tantamount obliged to bring a Frost-like to Excavation or an Ivara-like to Spy, same applies here.

I know for a fact Resonator doesn't work reliably, despite the switched-off AI, some enemies can still decide to start capturing, and in the tiniest of tiles you're actually quite hard pressed to keep a point clear even by playing the Pied Piper. It used to be good enough, but something went awry at some unknown point in patches enemies started to cheat grossly. Sleeping enemies still hacking the console. T-posing madlads caught up by Hildryn sometimes still do it too.

 

All that said, it's more of a flaw in the design of the mode that doesn't really support such constant swarms of 'actually survivable for more than 0.001s' enemies - especially since 1 player can't physically be in all 4 places at once. I just wanted to give an example of legitimate concerns with spawn counts.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
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1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

There's a limit to using the 'right tool for the job'. Reasonable expectations. It should make something reasonably-possible easier, not be used to treat something almost impossible. You don't want to be tantamount obliged to bring a Frost-like to Excavation or an Ivara-like to Spy, same applies here.

I know for a fact Resonator doesn't work reliably, despite the switched-off AI, some enemies can still decide to start capturing, and in the tiniest of tiles you're actually quite hard pressed to keep a point clear even by playing the Pied Piper. It used to be good enough, but something went awry at some unknown point in patches enemies started to cheat grossly. Sleeping enemies still hacking the console. T-posing madlads caught up by Hildryn sometimes still do it too.

 

All that said, it's more of a flaw in the design of the mode that doesn't really support such constant swarms of 'actually survivable for more than 0.001s' enemies - especially since 1 player can't physically be in all 4 places at once. I just wanted to give an example of legitimate concerns with spawn counts.

Ok, so... Let me get this straight.

  • You expect to use ONE singular warframe for every type of mission and easily come out victorious 100% of the time?
  • You expect to "play" the game on that one singular chosen warframe in semi-afk mode without doing anything 100% of the time?

Or what? I don't get it.

Yes, sometimes enemies start hacking the console EVEN when under the effect of Chaos/Resonator/Sleep. But that's why you kinda also run around and shoot those enemies or re-apply the effect, you know? You don't just stand in one spot and do nothing. You know, play the actual game? Recasting Chaos, for example, definitely ALWAYS stops the hacking process. Always. I tested it many times. It even does it through walls/floors/ceilings due to not having line of sight requirement. All you have to do is jump over closer to the point that's being hacked and literally just recast Chaos, that's it. You know, move around a bit, yeah? Again, play the actual game instead of AFKing?

Again, warframe is a game that REQUIRES you to "Use the right tool for the job", if you expect to perform well. But it also gives you a tonn of of tools for each job too.

  • Is it Defense? Grab Limbo, Frost, Gara to protect the objective entirely. You don't pick Grendel for that mission - he does not have any abilities to protect the objective.
  • Is it Mobile Defense? You grab either one of the previously three mentioned or something that is capable of killing tonns of enemies fast - my go-to warframe for MD right now is Protea.
  • Is it Survival? Pick Khora, Nekros for extra life support capsules from their abilities. Hell, even Hydroid and friggin Atlas with augments would do.
  • Is it a Capture mission? Grab Titania, Gauss, Volt to get to the objective enemy fast and then to extraction and spend less than 2 minutes on that mission.
  • Is it Rescue? Grab Limbo. Ignore everything, unlock the cell with the prisoner, banish using his 1 and rush to extration - easy mission, less than 2 minutes, no issues with prisoner going down. Alternatively, there are ways to keep the prisoner alive, like with Trinity's and Nidus's "link" abilities, for example. You'll just have to constantly take it slow for the prisoner to keep up with you. Or just grab one of those fast-frames to get to extraction before the prisoner ever gets downed(cuz they teleport after you, if you're going too fast) or before they bleed out, if they are downed.
  • Is it Spy? Grab Ivara with augment, literally ignore all alarm lasers and other obstacles, as well as enemies and cameras due to stealth. Or Loki/Ash too, just gonna have to be more careful with those lasers/scaners, but that's it.
  • And so on, and so forth!

Of course I'm talking about SOLO PLAY here. Regular or Steel Path. There is really no difference. Specializing your loadout for the mission you're about to face is what you should do to make things easy, trivial even. I have loadouts for every mission type that I might face in my play - on Sorties, events, etc. I have loadouts for those boss fights solo (Eidolon hunting, both orb mother hunting too). It's always different frames, different weapons, different modding, specifically for the type of mission. Often something that one wouldn't take for other types of missions.

You can't expect to "win 100% all the time" if you're doing things wrong - expecting any warframe/weapon combo to perform equally in ANY sort of mission. Specializing is key. You can't just make a "universal" loadout with ONE frame, ONE weapon and expect it to perform equally good in all mission types. Sure, we can start an argument that "some warframes are less good than others" and "there is no point in taking warframe A if we have warframe B that does the same, but better", which is true in quite a few cases... But that's already another topic entirely.

Fun fact. If you do not kill enemies in Interception and just keep them under Chaos/Resonator - they STOP spawning after a certain amount of enemies. In regular and SP missions. All you have to do is "gather" all the enemies under Chaos/Resonator(apply it to everyone) and then just cap all 4 points. The rest is just standing around, doing nothing while that % counts up and keeping an eye on those Chaos/Resonator timers, recasting when needed. And there you go. Enemies will just pile around the Resonator, follow it and occasionally shoot each other thanks to Chaos, when outside the effects of the Resonator. They will ignore you and the objectives.

Edited by _Kit_Kat_Cat_
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43 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Ok, so... Let me get this straight.

  • You expect to use ONE singular warframe for every type of mission and easily come out victorious 100% of the time?
  • You expect to "play" the game on that one singular chosen warframe in semi-afk mode without doing anything 100% of the time?

Or what? I don't get it.

You're being way more antsy about an offhand example than really seems necessary, especially with gratuitous strawman like that.

Quote

Yes, sometimes enemies start hacking the console EVEN when under the effect of Chaos/Resonator/Sleep. But that's why you kinda also run around and shoot those enemies or re-apply the effect, you know? You don't just stand in one spot and do nothing. You know, play the actual game? Recasting Chaos, for example, definitely ALWAYS stops the hacking process. Always. I tested it many times. It even does it through walls/floors/ceilings due to not having line of sight requirement. All you have to do is jump over closer to the point that's being hacked and literally just recast Chaos, that's it. You know, move around a bit, yeah? Again, play the actual game instead of AFKing?

Point is it's buggy and inconsistent. And you shouldn't be obliged to bring wide CC just because the mode is shortsighted when it comes to swarms. The 'Wargames parable' of the only winning move is not to play (not letting the enemies act) is not desirable as a baseline expectation.

A lost point should be reasonable to clear and recapture if you're up to the task of killing without spending forever on each unit, not kill 500 enemies in short order and still have more trickling in preventing recaptures.

Quote
  • Is it Defense? Grab Limbo, Frost, Gara to protect the objective entirely. You don't pick Grendel for that mission - he does not have any abilities to protect the objective.
  • Is it Mobile Defense? You grab either one of the previously three mentioned or something that is capable of killing tonns of enemies fast - my go-to warframe for MD right now is Protea.
  • Is it Survival? Pick Khora, Nekros for extra life support capsules from their abilities. Hell, even Hydroid and friggin Atlas with augments would do.
  • Is it a Capture mission? Grab Titania, Gauss, Volt to get to the objective enemy fast and then to extraction and spend less than 2 minutes on that mission.
  • Is it Rescue? Grab Limbo. Ignore everything, unlock the cell with the prisoner, banish using his 1 and rush to extration - easy mission, less than 2 minutes, no issues with prisoner going down. Alternatively, there are ways to keep the prisoner alive, like with Trinity's and Nidus's "link" abilities, for example. You'll just have to constantly take it slow for the prisoner to keep up with you. Or just grab one of those fast-frames to get to extraction before the prisoner ever gets downed(cuz they teleport after you, if you're going too fast) or before they bleed out, if they are downed.
  • Is it Spy? Grab Ivara with augment, literally ignore all alarm lasers and other obstacles, as well as enemies and cameras due to stealth. Or Loki/Ash too, just gonna have to be more careful with those lasers/scaners, but that's it.
  • And so on, and so forth!
  • You should be able to at least get through the obligatory rounds of a typical Defense mission without a hard barrier ability. using a competent build and effort. If you can't, then a problem exists. Not 'zero damage received completion', but it shouldn't be down to the wire on the base level.
  • Mob defense, as above. SP can exhibit problems on some especially badly-placed consoles due to the health scaling not really matching with the increased threat of mass + more-damaging enemies.
  • You should not require increased loot drops to have a decent ability to survive the base time of a Survival. Broadly, you don't, but with SP slashing enemy Life Support drop chances more than it increases your kills/sec quantity, sometimes it's only because 5 minutes is easily covered by container drops and Towers.
  • You don't have to be fastframe to Capture. Just need to deal with the typical SP over-tankiness on one unit.
  • You don't need anything in particular to reliably Rescue, at all. SP or otherwise.
  • Beside the fact you cited that pointless, laughable insult of an augment, you don't need anything to reasonably clear a Spy vault, and SP mode offers no added trouble.

You appear to have missed the point. It's not whether you can make things trivial. It's how much you need to take special concerns for a basic expectation of completing the mission at all.

Quote

Fun fact. If you do not kill enemies in Interception and just keep them under Chaos/Resonator - they STOP spawning after a certain amount of enemies. In regular and SP missions. All you have to do is "gather" all the enemies under Chaos/Resonator(apply it to everyone) and then just cap all 4 points. The rest is just standing around, doing nothing while that % counts up and keeping an eye on those Chaos/Resonator timers, recasting when needed. And there you go. Enemies will just pile around the Resonator, follow it and occasionally shoot each other thanks to Chaos, when outside the effects of the Resonator. They will ignore you and the objectives.

They will ignore the consoles - except when they don't because aforementioned bugs see them attach to the consoles anyway. And then you kill them, and the game spawns in fresh ones, taking two separate points at once, which is troublesome to deal with as a single entity.

But really the subject is blowing out of proportion. All I was saying is that a high spawn rate can make capturing Int points on small maps unreasonable, even if you can kill the enemies in a fairly timely manner.

In the same way, you probably can kill the Profit Taker with Loki, with a stack of revives and some divine good fortune, but that doesn't mean it's reasonably expected you can - and being mostly because Loki's core survival mechanism is abjectly ignored by the PT, it's arguably unfair even though you can choose tank frames.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
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56 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

And you shouldn't be obliged to bring wide CC

((and really, a lot of other points from your post, I just don't want to bloat the post with quotes upon quotes upon quotes))

I mean... Why not? You should. That's kinda... The whole point? No?

You have a mission. With an objective. A "problem" to solve. With specific variables, challenges.

And you also have lots of tools for problem-solving. A whole variety of tools - warframes with varied abilities. Some are damage dealers, supports, protectors, crowd-controllers...

 

It's basic, common logic. It's basic MMO game design. You don't go into a dungeon in RPGs as 5 tanks, you know? Because you need healers and damage dealers, for example. But since we're talking solo play...

If an objective is to defend something - you take a defensive warframe(Frost, Limbo, etc). It's basic, common logic.

If an objective is to keep 4 points under your control - you prevent enemies from capturing them. How? There are two ways: they can't capture if they are dead (which means take some nuke frame, like Saryn) OR they can't capture if they don't want to capture (which means crowd control, like Nyx). It's basic, common logic.

To solve the problem you pick the right tool. You don't expect the wrong tool to "still do the job at least okay-ish". You just don't. ESPECIALLY if we are talking solo play and Steel Path. Or full-squad spawns for solo play, just like in Steel Path, but in regular starchart.

Please, don't tell me you're the person who uses a hammer instead of a screwdriver to deal with screws..?

 

It's not "increased spawn rates". It's normal spawn rates. For a full 4-man squad. Instead of "reduced" spawn rates due to you being solo. While in Steel Path, there are ALWAYS full spawns. All I'm asking us AN OPTION to have full squad spawns in regular missions. One that people can opt out, if they find things too hard for them.

Edited by _Kit_Kat_Cat_
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On 2021-06-01 at 3:07 PM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

So the bottom line is. Can we have a switch - "FULL ENEMY SPAWN RATE when solo" or something like that? An option to turn on for those who want it and turn off for those who don't.

If it comes with a switch to lower solo spawns in SP too, I'm all for it.  Because sometimes i do feel like killing tough enemies with a Veldt or Daikyu without  using a stealth frame.

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18 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

If it comes with a switch to lower solo spawns in SP too, I'm all for it.  Because sometimes i do feel like killing tough enemies with a Veldt or Daikyu without  using a stealth frame.

But... there are way more ways to do so without just stealth frames and Veldt/Daikyu..? o.o

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21 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which part are you confused about?

There are a lot of ways of "killing tough enemies" with Veldt/Daikyu (or any other weapon for that matter) WITHOUT using stealth frames. Regardless of numbers - many or just a few. That's just a very weird and specific thing you're mentioning. I just don't see any connection of Veldt/Daikyu and stealth frames to number of enemies.

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55 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

There are a lot of ways of "killing tough enemies" with Veldt/Daikyu (or any other weapon for that matter) WITHOUT using stealth frames. Regardless of numbers - many or just a few. That's just a very weird and specific thing you're mentioning. I just don't see any connection of Veldt/Daikyu and stealth frames to number of enemies.

Those were just examples, though they're two of my favorites.  It could be different single target weapons, and it could be a different hack than invisibility I want to avoid, like extreme crowd control.

Point being, I can play Warframe as a kind of half arsed tactical shooter...outside of Steel Path.  It's not efficient, and sometimes I fail, but it's a fun change of pace. In SP though, I'm not nearly good enough to keep up with the increased spawns, even if I'm still 1HKing almost everything.

So it would be nice to have the option to lower spawn rates too. (Solo only obviously, just like the original proposal.)

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