Yareli / Pre-release feedback + Initial thoughts

[quxier]

1 minute ago, killerJoke66 said:

it(xaku) WAS , not right now of course , it was weak when it was released with all the high investment cost against meh outcome , it was basically an all rounder frame with nothing best at particular except the high investment value which made it basically hydroid tier but not after the big buffs 

Ah... you meant before updates. Yes, that good reasons. I personally seen it as not the worst but as a "potential". I can see how other think differently.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

45 minutes ago, quxier said:

So.... Xaku mindlessly killing some high level enemies (I don't remember, it was probably few tousands). And you call it one of the worst? I mean sure, even my one of favorite, I see bad things but "the worst" is too much.

Do you mind telling us what is so wrong with that frame that makes it "one of the worst"?

They launched as a terrible frame.

Now they are technically a good frame but the build required to get them to optimal performance is awful and they never should’ve been balanced around it. Also their ability design is bizarre and incoherent. Like they prevent their 2 from being recastable at max guns because DE doesn’t want them to be better than Loki? Loki, the frame that aging extremely poorly right now? Or how about making their 4, an AOE debuff ability, now become an ability duration buffer....while still also being an AOE debuff. So the debuff gets complete ignored in favor of the duration freeze.

Nothing about Xakus ability design and balancing makes sense. And their 2 isn’t good enough to justify that. So they are pretty mediocre in my book.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Nothing about Xakus ability design and balancing makes sense.

Yeah, it's almost like they're made up of bits and pieces from like three different frames or something. The fact that the offensive power of their 2 scales with both Strength and Range makes it quite good though, even without the 100% defense reduction. However, they still got some stuff in need of fixing/buffing, like how their 1 is just straight-up a weaker and less synergistic subsumed Roar.

[Surbusken]

My first reaction was, the map design doesn't support k-drives.

You will be at a disadvantage bumping into walls and getting stuck. It would have some type of mechanical purpose to using the k-drive, knockdown on NPCs or some kind of anti-bounce mechanic where you slide off walls or corners, instead of stopping.

Could also have been wall climbing, large jumps regular frames can't handle or even fishing while hovering on water.

 

Then while I was contemplating that, I got to wondering, if you can use melee and guns while on the k-drive?

Seems like the k-drive doesn't add anything but rather just disables being able to fight while moving?

So now you are both movement impaired and attack disabled - but you do "get a damage reduction!!!!1"

 

Then I also didn't like any of the animations of the casted abilities and I personally would not have added another water frame knowing how ignored the hydroid players feel.

 

So it's probably a total overhaul or complete remake for me.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Like they prevent their 2 from being recastable at max guns because DE doesn’t want them to be better than Loki? Loki, the frame that aging extremely poorly right now?

The one thing that makes me "little" frustrated is something like this. GoL isn't recastable but it's ok for it to be able to just kill everything for almost free.

10 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

However, they still got some stuff in need of fixing/buffing, like how their 1 is just straight-up a weaker and less synergistic subsumed Roar.

With status you can make enemies unable to shoot you (void bubble). It works nice with GoL. Xata "semi disarm" enemies at large distance and GoL "truly disarm" them at smaller distance with more casts.

You can even makes headshots easier.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Yeah, it's almost like they're made up of bits and pieces from like three different frames or something. The fact that the offensive power of their 2 scales with both Strength and Range makes it quite good though, even without the 100% defense reduction. However, they still got some stuff in need of fixing/buffing, like how their 1 is just straight-up a weaker and less synergistic subsumed Roar.

But that’s the problem. You want high range on Xaku for both the number of guns, and because Graps gun range is awful. But you also want strength for the gun damage and Gaze armor strip. So you’re put into a position where you need both Overextended and Blind rage are necessary for Xakus abilities to function optimally. And it makes the frame super unsatisfying and clunky to use.

[sunderthefirmament]

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that’s the problem. You want high range on Xaku for both the number of guns, and because Graps gun range is awful. But you also want strength for the gun damage and Gaze armor strip. So you’re put into a position where you need both Overextended and Blind rage are necessary for Xakus abilities to function optimally. And it makes the frame super unsatisfying and clunky to use.

Yeah, they're hard to build.  I've currently got a glass cannon one that has high enough strength for full defense strip and max, max, max range.  I... kind of miss my lower range build, tbh.  But it's not really possible to do both with the polarities I'd need.

 

Still, I think the worst part about Xaku is the awkward cycling ability.  I only ever bother with the defense strip one... Gaze, I think it's called.  I'd use the others more, but it's just not worth cycling through.

 

To get back to Yareli, I'm betting she's going to follow the modern trend of needing everything.  I miss the days of frames with an easy dump stat, or reasonable breakpoints.  But I think DE has realized that they can squeeze more forma purchases out of the playerbase if the build needs are high.  Sevagoth was a test, no doubt.

[mrrobotto67]

I am actually surprised that DE took so long on releasing a frame with its on K-Drive, taking into account that they loved showcasing them before fortuna launched.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

Then while I was contemplating that, I got to wondering, if you can use melee and guns while on the k-drive?

Seems like the k-drive doesn't add anything but rather just disables being able to fight while moving?

So now you are both movement impaired and attack disabled - but you do "get a damage reduction!!!!1"

I'm wondering about this as well. 

If her 2 doesn't allow you to use melee or primaries then I see it as the ability being replaced the most in Helminth. Thing is, it was stated to be her defensive ability to soak damage, and her other abilities may have synergies that require it. I see this frame being labeled as worse than Hydroid if that's the case.

[PsiWarp]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

If her 2 doesn't allow you to use melee

Her idle animation lets her hug the board, now I'm seeing her bashing faces in with it.

But yeah, I hope that primaries are allowed given the frequent weapon swapping of the whole Arsenal that DE wants us to do. Smooth transition into melee would be a plus.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

With status you can make enemies unable to shoot you (void bubble).

Huh, didn't know it affected enemy projectiles as well. Today I learned, I guess. Still, I prefer Roar to boost the scaling damage of GoL.

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that’s the problem. You want high range on Xaku for both the number of guns, and because Graps gun range is awful. But you also want strength for the gun damage and Gaze armor strip.

I see no problem in a frame having multiple abilities that significantly benefit from multiple ability attributes. I even prefer that over frames like Rhino or Loki, where it feels like a complete waste to build certain attributes because they only affect a couple of abilities each in any noticeable way.

[Jarriaga]

6 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Her idle animation lets her hug the board, now I'm seeing her bashing faces in with it.

But yeah, I hope that primaries are allowed given the frequent weapon swapping of the whole Arsenal that DE wants us to do. Smooth transition into melee would be a plus.

If she doesn't allow it we can pretty much at least appreciate the size of Pablo's balls for sticking to a "fun" concept at the total expense of functionality and viability. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Huh, didn't know it affected enemy projectiles as well. Today I learned, I guess. Still, I prefer Roar to boost the scaling damage of GoL.

I see no problem in a frame having multiple abilities that significantly benefit from multiple ability attributes. I even prefer that over frames like Rhino or Loki, where it feels like a complete waste to build certain attributes because they only affect a couple of abilities each in any noticeable way.

I see a major problem with a frame that incentivizes you to use conflicting mods as their basic build. Because it Xakus case it massively affects the way Xaku is played.

Xaku is a caster frame. A frame that wants to constantly be casting abilities, but due to the needed use of Overextended and by extension blind rage. You have a caster frame who can literally drain half their energy pool on 3 ability casts.

Thats not good design. Not to mention the build leaves no room for flexibility with modding as it uses up 7 of the 8 mod slots.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

If she doesn't allow it we can pretty much at least appreciate the size of Pablo's balls for sticking to a "fun" concept at the total expense of functionality and viability. 

As far as we know currently you can only use secondaries with yareli’s board. Hence why her passive is a crit buff to secondaries while moving 

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

As far as we know currently you can only use secondaries with yareli’s board. Hence why her passive is a crit buff to secondaries while moving 

Hence his huge balls as to design a frame that doesn't let you melee or use primaries when using a defensive ability.

[Reitrix]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that’s the problem. You want high range on Xaku for both the number of guns, and because Graps gun range is awful. But you also want strength for the gun damage and Gaze armor strip. So you’re put into a position where you need both Overextended and Blind rage are necessary for Xakus abilities to function optimally. And it makes the frame super unsatisfying and clunky to use.

It's almost like having to globally mod for ability stats is archaic and limits a frames kit by either crippling 3/4ths of it or making half of it kind of mediocre. 

I've said before that DE should have Abilities modded directly like an exalted weapon.

But all that got as a response was some screeching about how crippling most of a frames kit to make one ability useful was "a build".

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Reitrix said:

It's almost like having to globally mod for ability stats is archaic and limits a frames kit by either crippling 3/4ths of it or making half of it kind of mediocre. 

I've said before that DE should have Abilities modded directly like an exalted weapon.

But all that got as a response was some screeching about how crippling most of a frames kit to make one ability useful was "a build".

That’s a terrible idea.

think of the forma.

[Jarriaga]

6 hours ago, Reitrix said:

It's almost like having to globally mod for ability stats is archaic and limits a frames kit by either crippling 3/4ths of it or making half of it kind of mediocre. 

I've said before that DE should have Abilities modded directly like an exalted weapon.

But all that got as a response was some screeching about how crippling most of a frames kit to make one ability useful was "a build".

I agree for stat-stick abilities, but I don't think extending it to all abilities is reasonable.

I'd personally be happy to pay a forma tax so I can at least not limit how my melee weapon performs while chasing an ability. While it would indeed be a nerf because stat-stick abilities would no longer be boosted by Rivens or weapon-specific damage buffs like the Jaw Sword or Dual Cleaver augments, I would highly appreciate being able to use whipclaw and shattered lash without sacrificing functionality on my melee weapon.

But adding mods to all abilities separately? That's another level. How many mods would be allowed? How many mod slots? How many mod slot drain points? Would you be able to add duplicate mods you are already using in another ability? Meaning, if I put Blind Rage in Warcry, do I also get to put it on Hysteria? And if I do, do I need a second copy of Blind Rage? And how would you then prevent everyone from just adding all health/armor mods to the main frame if mods for abilities no longer take their space? What about augments? Even without considering forma that's a massive push in powercreep by virtue of having your cake and eating it too. 

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I agree for stat-stick abilities, but I don't think extending it to all abilities is reasonable.

I'd personally be happy to pay a forma tax so I can at least not limit how my melee weapon performs while chasing an ability. While it would indeed be a nerf because stat-stick abilities would no longer be boosted by Rivens or weapon-specific damage buffs like the Jaw Sword or Dual Cleaver augments, I would highly appreciate being able to use whipclaw and shattered lash without sacrificing functionality on my melee weapon.

But adding mods to all abilities separately? That's another level. How many mods would be allowed? How many mod slots? How many mod slot drain points? Would you be able to add duplicate mods you are already using in another ability? Meaning, if I put Blind Rage in Warcry, do I also get to put it on Hysteria? And if I do, do I need a second copy of Blind Rage? And how would you then prevent everyone from just adding all health/armor mods to the main frame if mods for abilities no longer take their space? What about augments? Even without considering forma that's a massive push in powercreep by virtue of having your cake and eating it too. 

I don't mean adding all new mods. I just mean to move Strength/Duration/Efficiency/Range onto the Ability itself. 
Give something like 4  slots per ability and one dedicated Augment slot. 
You'd be making similar choices with it as you do now. You just wouldn't be crippling some of your abilities to make others worth using. Or crippling 3 to make the last one do something unusual (Hi Speedva).

Game already allows for the same mod to exist on multiple locations, Kitgun Rivens specifically. I have a Catchmoon Primary and Secondary that i run together, but only 1 Catchmoon Riven. Game allows it on both at once. 

So it wouldn't be impossible to extend that to abilities. 

Just slapping all the armor and health mods into the now vacant slots isn't necessarily the best move. There are a lot of Warframe mods that see zero use on account of how niche they are and the cost of installing one over say, more strength or armor.  
Sure, You COULD just slap on all the health and armor mods. Or you could use some of the resistance stuff. Or the Proton set. Or anything you wanted to. Because you would have the space to make meaningful non ability related choices. 
It also opens up oppurtunies for DE to get creative with Warframe mods. 
Currently, There is zero reason for DE to ever consider making more unique or unusual Warframe mods because no one would use them over Health/Armor/Ability mods. 
Look up any frame build on Overframe. Its always the same mods, ability buffs and then nearly always Adaptation followed by Health/Armor (because shields are garbage and only good for shield gating)

Its not going to make individual abilities any more powerful than they can be made to be right now. We just wouldn't be crippling parts of our warframe to do it. 
Maybe I'm just the weird one for wanting a Warframe with 4 abilities to have 4 useful abilities instead of 1 good one and 3 that may as well not even be there. 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I see a major problem with a frame that incentivizes you to use conflicting mods as their basic build. Because it Xakus case it massively affects the way Xaku is played.

Xaku is a caster frame. A frame that wants to constantly be casting abilities, but due to the needed use of Overextended and by extension blind rage. You have a caster frame who can literally drain half their energy pool on 3 ability casts.

Thats not good design. Not to mention the build leaves no room for flexibility with modding as it uses up 7 of the 8 mod slots.

The funny thing here is that you can switch out "Xaku" for any other caster frame in that comment.

15 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I see a major problem with a frame that incentivizes you to use conflicting mods as their basic build. Because it Mag's case it massively affects the way Mag is played.

Mag is a caster frame. A frame that wants to constantly be casting abilities, but due to the needed use of Overextended and by extension blind rage. You have a caster frame who can literally drain half their energy pool on 3 ability casts.

Thats not good design. Not to mention the build leaves no room for flexibility with modding as it uses up 7 of the 8 mod slots.

Like oh, you wanna run both high Range and Duration on your Gara? I guess there's now a "needed use" for both Overextended and Narrow Minded, and that's "not good design"?Man, it's almost as if the game's modding system requires you to choose and balance your trade-offs once on a while. What frame wouldn't benefit from running 15 mods? Having to decide between what to include and not is kinda what a build is. If you wanna run high Range, you gotta build for high Range. If you don't like the trade-offs or want more mod slots, you need to make some choices which may include lowering the Range.

Alternatively, one can always rant on the forum about wanting high Range without building for high Range, but I suggest one makes their own topic in that case.

[Jarriaga]

7 hours ago, Reitrix said:

Maybe I'm just the weird one for wanting a Warframe with 4 abilities to have 4 useful abilities instead of 1 good one and 3 that may as well not even be there. 

The only other person I've seen suggesting something like this is a notorious powercreep-pusher in the forums (Lutesque). This is why such a proposal gets a hard no from me.

I mean, just look at Mirage. Chasing the biggest damage bonusses for Hall of Mirrors and Eclipse results in a terrible energy drain for Prism. Being able to negate the energy drain of Prism via Fleeting Expertise without affecting duration for Eclipse/HoM means the ability no longer has a balancing mechanism keeping it in check. Not to mention that even if all health mods are not "ideal", it still means more direct powercreep via set mods as in your own example, because I would personally be adding gladiator mods to my melee frames left and right.

And what about the forma? You have mentioned 4 slots. What is their mod drain capacity? How do forma slots work for each ability? If I forma a slot for Warcry with Umbra forma for Umbral Intensify, what happens to the slot in the config for Hysteria? Does it also lock me to an Umbral forma there (Effectively removing the usability of the slot if I'm not using Umbra there) or do I need a second Umbra forma so I can add it if I want? And if so, do I now need 4 Umbral forma if I'm chasing power strength in a different frame? That's also a hard no from me.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The funny thing here is that you can switch out "Xaku" for any other caster frame in that comment.

Like oh, you wanna run both high Range and Duration on your Gara? I guess there's now a "needed use" for both Overextended and Narrow Minded, and that's "not good design"?Man, it's almost as if the game's modding system requires you to choose and balance your trade-offs once on a while. What frame wouldn't benefit from running 15 mods? Having to decide between what to include and not is kinda what a build is. If you wanna run high Range, you gotta build for high Range. If you don't like the trade-offs or want more mod slots, you need to make some choices which may include lowering the Range.

Alternatively, one can always rant on the forum about wanting high Range without building for high Range, but I suggest one makes their own topic in that case.

You don’t need overextended for Gara tho.

Also if you were to use those 2 mods together Gara has her 2’s scaling mechanic to counter the decrease to the starting strength of it.

Xaku doesn’t have that luxury.

[Eyn_Sof]

17 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

 

To get back to Yareli, I'm betting she's going to follow the modern trend of needing everything.  I miss the days of frames with an easy dump stat, or reasonable breakpoints.  But I think DE has realized that they can squeeze more forma purchases out of the playerbase if the build needs are high.  Sevagoth was a test, no doubt.

So we are gonna ignore lavos? He doesn't really need efficiency, yes it increases the cooldown reduction from 3 but that's it. Sounds like a dump stat to me.

[sunderthefirmament]

52 minutes ago, Eyn_Sof said:

So we are gonna ignore lavos? He doesn't really need efficiency, yes it increases the cooldown reduction from 3 but that's it. Sounds like a dump stat to me.

Good point!  In fact, I prefer low efficiency on him due to how unpleasant using his powers can be.  Tap-tap-hold for every single one, and that's if you invert the tap-hold functions.  Forgot about him, honestly, as he's just not fun for me to play.  I recognize his power, but he's an absolute miss for me in usability.

 

Are there any others though?

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Good point!  In fact, I prefer low efficiency on him due to how unpleasant using his powers can be.  Tap-tap-hold for every single one, and that's if you invert the tap-hold functions.  Forgot about him, honestly, as he's just not fun for me to play.  I recognize his power, but he's an absolute miss for me in usability.

 

Are there any others though?

It depends how far back you go. 

Hildryn, Protea, Baruuk, Grendel, Gauss, Lavos, Garuda, Revenant and Xaku all have stats they can ignore or keep neutral or at lower investments. Wisp is a bit tricky since she needs strength for 1, range on 3 while efficiency is useful aswell and duration isnt a bad stat either to keep the buffs up longer for less clunky mechanic use.

Hildryn can completely skip duration down to atleast 40% if you wanna cap shield/sec at the lowest cost at 190% efficiency.

Protea only needs balanced stats. Enough duration to hit a good spot on turrets, same deal with range. Can max efficiency or go with other sustain options. Strength gets what it gets pretty much, not really a must have stat due to how her turrets scale.

Baruuk thrives with minimal duration (13%)

Grendel really needs nothing, which is more of a Inaros-like design flaw.

Gauss works well with balanced stats

Lavos is all about range and strength with neutral dura and dumped efficiency.

Garuda really doesnt need range and you only need a limited amount of strength to push her #4 to 100% status chance per hit.

Revenant doesnt need range either.

Xaku can go for balance between range and strength, since both benefit his pew pew. He does however need strength for 100% stripper gaze. Durartion above neutral isnt really needed if you manage his #4 properly.