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Guns 2.0 Suggestion!


XJR15

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for guns 2.0 they should have 1 arcane slot for primary secondary and melee weapons to go along with the 2 slots in the warframe section. in this case those new slots can have the primary and secondary and melee weapon arcanes transfereed over to them to help with  the damage aspect in steel path to balance it out better for that mode. \

thoughts?

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5 minutes ago, XJR15 said:

thoughts?

*sigh*

Arcanes alone are not gonna solve the divide. I don't think mods will either, but DE openly said they'd rather do that than go through a base stat rework of each individual weapon again; in a way, I don't blame them as with our arsenal of weapons that's a Herculean task, but sometimes you've got to put in that crazy level of work if you want to make changes happen.

the way I see it, it's regular hitscan bullet guns like Soma, Tenora, Braton etc. that need the most help, as these weapons' lack the AoE that makes most current weapons far more popular. they need scaling mods like Condition Overload, Berserker, Weeping Wounds etc applied to them so that they can better deal damage to single targets in higher levels. with AoE guns, they don't need quite as much help because they can already hit groups and proc elements really hard, but they should still get something, maybe diluted versions of the mods for hitscan guns. both AoE and hitscan guns should be equally viable in the different tactics they require to use:

- with bullet guns, the downside is no AoE to hit groups (aside from punchthrough mods, but that's another thing). in exchange for not wiping out groups, bullet guns should be much better at dealing damage and procs to single targets, a weapon you can use reliably against bosses and stubborn heavy Eximus units that can take more of a beating than the regular mobs surrounding them.

- with AoE guns, you shouldn't get quite the same level of sustained DPS on a single target, but you remove the need for precision and can more easily and quickly clear trash mobs out of the way, which for the vast majority of content means they will still feel really powerful.

AoE weapons can and likely will still dominate most loadouts, but bullet guns will now be just as viable once enemy scaling kicks in. and of course, melee will still be an option, though how much of an option depends on what changes they ultimately propose on the 16th. 

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Aha "steel path aspect"
Are you telling me that melee is not broken op over guns in 90% of the game content?
Are you telling me we need only melee nerfs for steel path which is only one mode of the game.

Weird because people on forum said you can't use guns anymore in warframe because of melee

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I'm hoping they add a "stance/Aura" slot to guns. 

They're going to give us new mods to power guns up in SP, bit I can't imagine these new mods are going to cost the same as current ones, so capacity will end up being an issue.

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I know what u guys mean when u say Guns need help and Melee are fine / OP i personally think Melee is fine in Steel Path especially survival.

but what DO YOU think would make guns where they need to be for Steel Path? personally guns are fine in regular mode its just in steel path they needs to be buffed up to melee standard.

Im at end game right now which is steel path and ive finished it and i noticed guns are underpowered compared to melee in it.

 

what do u guys think needs to be done to guns to bring them up to speed on steel path similar to that of melee weapons?

 

thoughts?

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The problem is not that guns are underpowered compared to melee weapons stat-wise, the problem is in the mods. Guns don't have any damage scaling mods as good as the most  meta melee ones (bloodrush, condition overload, weeping wounds, etc.).
DE has already stated that they are going to add a batch of new mods for guns in a future update, which will supposedly be on par with their melee counterparts; I don't know if that alone will solve the issue, but if they make those right, that should probably help guns a lot.

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you know what they could do with for a start ? make it so the polarity on the exilus slot can be swapped with other slots!! its a major constraint when doing gun builds and people white knight this inconvenience for some reason !?

anyway I think on devsteam they said it would going to be done via mods so I expect it to only be done using new mods

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6 hours ago, General-Pacman said:

The problem is not that guns are underpowered compared to melee weapons stat-wise, the problem is in the mods. Guns don't have any damage scaling mods as good as the most  meta melee ones (bloodrush, condition overload, weeping wounds, etc.).
DE has already stated that they are going to add a batch of new mods for guns in a future update, which will supposedly be on par with their melee counterparts; I don't know if that alone will solve the issue, but if they make those right, that should probably help guns a lot.

OK sounds good, thanks! also i agree mods like condition overload are needed for all guns in primary and secondary weapon slot for steel path, steel path survival especially. so they can be on par with melee in steel path. Like this:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2507625681

in this case i have condition overload on and viral and heat status mods so that increases the damage a very large amount on melee they need to do the same for guns like that in guns 2.0 atleast.

 

thanks.

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On 2021-06-03 at 9:56 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

the way I see it, it's regular hitscan bullet guns like Soma, Tenora, Braton etc. that need the most help, as these weapons' lack the AoE that makes most current weapons far more popular. they need scaling mods like Condition Overload, Berserker, Weeping Wounds etc applied to them so that they can better deal damage to single targets in higher levels.

And such mods would need to be locked out for AoE weapons. Otherwise, people will just use them with AoE weapons and the Soma, Tenora, Braton etc. would remain exactly as they are.

On 2021-06-03 at 9:56 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

with AoE guns, they don't need quite as much help because they can already hit groups and proc elements really hard, but they should still get something, maybe diluted versions of the mods for hitscan guns.

Heavily diluted.

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On 2021-06-03 at 9:56 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

*sigh*

Arcanes alone are not gonna solve the divide. I don't think mods will either, but DE openly said they'd rather do that than go through a base stat rework of each individual weapon again; in a way, I don't blame them as with our arsenal of weapons that's a Herculean task, but sometimes you've got to put in that crazy level of work if you want to make changes happen.

I don't think base stat reworks are very effective. We already had one in Update 22.12.0 where weapons were buffed to match Mastery Requirements.

To me, buffing numbers just moves the goal post, what Warframe needs to change is how numbers fundamentally interact with each other.

Like the change to Condition Overload Vs Primed Pressure Point.

As long as armor scaling exists, Bleed which ignores armor scaling will always be the defacto best proc. As armor scales, all other damage types approach 0, but Bleed stays the same.

Solution: Enemy armor shouldn't scale.

Enemy armor scaling is also the only justification for all the damage multipliers players have access to in the multipliers arms race. 

To reach a set of manageable numbers to balance around, the rampant multiplication on both sides needs toned down.

Weapon Modding in Warframe is just about cramming as many multipliers you can feasibly fit into 8 slots which includes ways to circumvent enemy health multipliers (Hunter Munitions). Top tier weapons such as melee can abuse the most multipliers, while low tier has access to the least or less desirable multipliers like Fire Rate.

Viral procs, Critical Damage should be additive with Base Damage. Headshots should not be a separate multiplier and provide a flat +100% Crit Chance.

This would hit melee harder than ranged weapons as players will have to choose between Condition Overload and Blood Rush + Organ Shatter instead of putting in both without having to think.

High end weapons and the low end weapons need to be in the same zip code. 

Another way is to have a combo counter debuff to encourage people to actually heavy attack like DE intended.

Say, -5% overall Melee Damage for Light Attacks per Combo Counter over 1, maxing out at -55% at 12X.

Always found it weird how the combo system encouraged people to Mash E faster and faster, while penalizing you for stopping when you wanna shoot something. It should be the other way around where you are punished for button mashing like in other games.

PS: Another Functionality of Naramon Power Spike is the removal of Combo Counter debuff if people wanna play with the old meta.

 

 

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8 hours ago, XJR15 said:

I know what u guys mean when u say Guns need help and Melee are fine / OP i personally think Melee is fine in Steel Path especially survival.

but what DO YOU think would make guns where they need to be for Steel Path? personally guns are fine in regular mode its just in steel path they needs to be buffed up to melee standard.

Im at end game right now which is steel path and ive finished it and i noticed guns are underpowered compared to melee in it.

 

what do u guys think needs to be done to guns to bring them up to speed on steel path similar to that of melee weapons?

 

thoughts?

What makes Steel Path end-game?

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13 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

I don't think base stat reworks are very effective. We already had one in Update 22.12.0 where weapons were buffed to match Mastery Requirements.

To me, buffing numbers just moves the goal post, what Warframe needs to change is how numbers fundamentally interact with each other.

Like the change to Condition Overload Vs Primed Pressure Point.

As long as armor scaling exists, Bleed which ignores armor scaling will always be the defacto best proc. As armor scales, all other damage types approach 0, but Bleed stays the same.

Solution: Enemy armor shouldn't scale.

Enemy armor scaling is also the only justification for all the damage multipliers players have access to in the multipliers arms race. 

To reach a set of manageable numbers to balance around, the rampant multiplication on both sides needs toned down.

Weapon Modding in Warframe is just about cramming as many multipliers you can feasibly fit into 8 slots which includes ways to circumvent enemy health multipliers (Hunter Munitions). Top tier weapons such as melee can abuse the most multipliers, while low tier has access to the least or less desirable multipliers like Fire Rate.

Viral procs, Critical Damage should be additive with Base Damage. Headshots should not be a separate multiplier and provide a flat +100% Crit Chance.

This would hit melee harder than ranged weapons as players will have to choose between Condition Overload and Blood Rush + Organ Shatter instead of putting in both without having to think.

High end weapons and the low end weapons need to be in the same zip code. 

Another way is to have a combo counter debuff to encourage people to actually heavy attack like DE intended.

Say, -5% overall Melee Damage for Light Attacks per Combo Counter over 1, maxing out at -55% at 12X.

Always found it weird how the combo system encouraged people to Mash E faster and faster, while penalizing you for stopping when you wanna shoot something. It should be the other way around where you are punished for button mashing like in other games.

PS: Another Functionality of Naramon Power Spike is the removal of Combo Counter debuff if people wanna play with the old meta.

 

 

Thought experiment:

What if Combo Count stacked 1x per 1 hit (12 hits to reach 12x combo count) but was reset when striking another enemy?

Basically change combo from a personal  buff stack to being something that you build on a specific target and then do a "finisher" with Heavy Attacks to kill it and start the process anew for another target.

That'd make Bloodrush stack your crit against a heavy target to scale up the damage the longer you strike it, bit once it's dead, you need to start that stack again on a different target.

You'd be wanting to spend that combo count as you build it rather than wasting it by killing the target before using a Heavy to finish it. 

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49 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Thought experiment:

What if Combo Count stacked 1x per 1 hit (12 hits to reach 12x combo count) but was reset when striking another enemy?

Basically change combo from a personal  buff stack to being something that you build on a specific target and then do a "finisher" with Heavy Attacks to kill it and start the process anew for another target.

That'd make Bloodrush stack your crit against a heavy target to scale up the damage the longer you strike it, bit once it's dead, you need to start that stack again on a different target.

You'd be wanting to spend that combo count as you build it rather than wasting it by killing the target before using a Heavy to finish it. 

That's basically what melee combo was before Body Count, the original combo duration mod existed.

Combo Counter used to multiply your damage directly before the changes to base melee damage, ramping up as you kept hitting the same enemy, but combo duration was so short that it basically dissipated when you started attacking another enemy.

Combo Duration mods allowed you to keep the combo up throughout the mission as long as you were hitting things.

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5 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That's basically what melee combo was before Body Count, the original combo duration mod existed.

Combo Counter used to multiply your damage directly before the changes to base melee damage, ramping up as you kept hitting the same enemy, but combo duration was so short that it basically dissipated when you started attacking another enemy.

Combo Duration mods allowed you to keep the combo up throughout the mission as long as you were hitting things.

I was thinking more along the lines of having Combo Count behave more like a Status you apply to the Enemy. 
That way, mods like Bloodrush would make the target more vulnerable to Critical Strikes rather boosting your crit chance directly. 

The problem facing Bloodrush isnt the power it offers, its the fact that it only takes a moment into a mission to build it and maintain that buffed state for a whole run (I have a Shildeg build with around 30 seconds of combo duration >_>)
Other mods would be able to compete if Bloodrush/Weeping ramped from 0 - 100 on a per target basis, constantly building up and then falling off as you move through targets. 

Modifying the way Combos work might be an easier solution than just smashing BR/WW into the ground. 

To bring it all back around to the original topic though ... Combo could even be applied to guns with alt fire modes acting as Heavy Attacks to take advantage of that combo counter. Have an internal cooldown of around one second so Fire Rate doesn't make things weird. Call it 'Fixation' or somesuch. DE could then make combo type scaling mods for work for guns and we'd have more interesting alt fires than 'kill a bunch of dudes and then explode something'.  

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Am 3.6.2021 um 15:40 schrieb XJR15:

for guns 2.0 they should have 1 arcane slot for primary secondary and melee weapons to go along with the 2 slots in the warframe section. in this case those new slots can have the primary and secondary and melee weapon arcanes transfereed over to them to help with  the damage aspect in steel path to balance it out better for that mode. \

thoughts?

unlimited ammunition for kuva bramma?
I would be clearly for it. only devs want to avoid that and "sell" new content.
kitguns performance is much worse compared to top weapons.

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On 2021-06-03 at 9:40 PM, XJR15 said:

thoughts?

In a recent Devstream, Reb mentioned that they'll be buffing ranged weapons primarily through new Mods. I was initially a bit skeptical of this, but as she explained the reasoning it made me realize there are a lot of features given to melee via Mods, that just aren't available to ranged weapons, and it's mostly these mods that lend to melee's superiority. Here's a bunch of stuff melee can do (mostly because of its Mods) that ranged weapons can't do:

  • ramp up attack speed to a very high rate (Berserker)
  • strip base Armor on hit (Shattering Impact)
  • increase Crit and Status chances many times over based on use of the weapon (Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds)
  • build up an incredibly strong hit over time (combo system, which for guns is only present with Snipers in a weaker state than the melee combo system)
  • multiply damage based on enemy debuffs (Condition Overload)

Powerful Mods, as well as the combo system and heavy attack, are what creates the power divide between ranged and melee. Giving ranged weapons some scaling, interactive mods will make them stand out.

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3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

In a recent Devstream, Reb mentioned that they'll be buffing ranged weapons primarily through new Mods. I was initially a bit skeptical of this, but as she explained the reasoning it made me realize there are a lot of features given to melee via Mods, that just aren't available to ranged weapons, and it's mostly these mods that lend to melee's superiority. Here's a bunch of stuff melee can do (mostly because of its Mods) that ranged weapons can't do:

  • ramp up attack speed to a very high rate (Berserker)
  • strip base Armor on hit (Shattering Impact)
  • increase Crit and Status chances many times over based on use of the weapon (Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds)
  • build up an incredibly strong hit over time (combo system, which for guns is only present with Snipers in a weaker state than the melee combo system)
  • multiply damage based on enemy debuffs (Condition Overload)

Powerful Mods, as well as the combo system and heavy attack, are what creates the power divide between ranged and melee. Giving ranged weapons some scaling, interactive mods will make them stand out.

Before Blood Rush and Body Count, melee was in a worse state than guns. I just feel like buffing guns to the level of melee right now will just move the goal posts and just exacerbates the issue that DE feels like enemies need invincibility phases and status immunity to stand up to us. We already have bosses that can't be attacked with melee.

On the flip side, the scaling mods don't perform any better than the base mods in low level missions. The scaling mods don't do anything until enemies are tanky enough to survive your initial hits and are exclusively useful for endurance runs and Steel Path.

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Am 3.6.2021 um 15:40 schrieb XJR15:

for guns 2.0 they should have 1 arcane slot for primary secondary and melee weapons to go along with the 2 slots in the warframe section. in this case those new slots can have the primary and secondary and melee weapon arcanes transfereed over to them to help with  the damage aspect in steel path to balance it out better for that mode. \

thoughts?

-double post-

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6 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

On the flip side, the scaling mods don't perform any better than the base mods in low level missions. The scaling mods don't do anything until enemies are tanky enough to survive your initial hits and are exclusively useful for endurance runs and Steel Path.

Yup. Considering that this is the area where the melee/ranged discrepancy is most apparent, I think scaling mods would address the issue pretty well.

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On 2021-06-04 at 7:04 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

What makes Steel Path end-game?

Oh, because it increases enemy level to be on par with max level warframes using maxed everything on warframes like mods, umbras, etc. on warframes and all weapons. this is really prominent in steel path survival.

in this case they need to up primary and secondary (guns) to melee level like how it is in steel path survival. just something i noticed. im sure they will nail it as someone said its the mods if they can put mods like how they have for melee into ranged like condition overload, etc.  like every melee mod like was mentioned here for ranged that would fix the issue i think + anything else they had planned for guns 2.0!

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On 2021-06-03 at 9:56 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

*sigh*

Arcanes alone are not gonna solve the divide. I don't think mods will either, but DE openly said they'd rather do that than go through a base stat rework of each individual weapon again; in a way, I don't blame them as with our arsenal of weapons that's a Herculean task, but sometimes you've got to put in that crazy level of work if you want to make changes happen.

the way I see it, it's regular hitscan bullet guns like Soma, Tenora, Braton etc. that need the most help, as these weapons' lack the AoE that makes most current weapons far more popular. they need scaling mods like Condition Overload, Berserker, Weeping Wounds etc applied to them so that they can better deal damage to single targets in higher levels. with AoE guns, they don't need quite as much help because they can already hit groups and proc elements really hard, but they should still get something, maybe diluted versions of the mods for hitscan guns. both AoE and hitscan guns should be equally viable in the different tactics they require to use:

- with bullet guns, the downside is no AoE to hit groups (aside from punchthrough mods, but that's another thing). in exchange for not wiping out groups, bullet guns should be much better at dealing damage and procs to single targets, a weapon you can use reliably against bosses and stubborn heavy Eximus units that can take more of a beating than the regular mobs surrounding them.

- with AoE guns, you shouldn't get quite the same level of sustained DPS on a single target, but you remove the need for precision and can more easily and quickly clear trash mobs out of the way, which for the vast majority of content means they will still feel really powerful.

AoE weapons can and likely will still dominate most loadouts, but bullet guns will now be just as viable once enemy scaling kicks in. and of course, melee will still be an option, though how much of an option depends on what changes they ultimately propose on the 16th. 

If they do want to rework base stats of weapons, they could always do it in batches. Like, “the pistol update,” or “the corpus weapon update.”

Or even just randomly assorted batches of weapons decided by usage statistics. They could take everything with a 0.5 disposition and start adjustments there, and work backwards to the truly underwhelming weapons.

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In the "Devstream 155 Overview" it has comments about the damage issue guns in the primary and secondary slot have:

 

TENTATIVE: MELEE AND GUN WEAPON REVIEW

Devstream 155 Overview

We have made mention of this in the past, but for those who missed it: the discrepancy of power between melee weapons and primary/secondaries is an issue we are hoping to address. Our philosophy has been to tackle this with the goal of increasing the power of Guns via Mods and new Upgrades -- but there may be a handful of nerfs along the way as well.

Expect full details in a Dev Workshop and a Video currently planned for June 16.

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