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In-Game Competition


Norburito
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By default, in every game I have ever played that had it, I was a PvP-focused player. I'm well aware of Warframe's unfortunate relationship with PvP and quite frankly I don't see a bright future for it unless it gets an overhaul; I'm not here to preach for that though. I'm here to get a taste of that same glory, even if it's a much smaller bite of the cake. That could be a unique ranking system that is PvE related via constant leaderboards with meaningful prizes, automatized profile comparisons when you peep someone's info, or an entirely new and permanent PvE game mode that allows for a more competitive environment. 

I've noticed bits of this surfacing with leaderboards during events that I thoroughly enjoyed, but it's not enough, I'd want something permanent with monthly or yearly cycles, All that introduced to what makes up the majority of the playerbase, PvE players. Now, I know that is generally not what PvE is about, so I compiled a subjective pro and cons list.

 

Pros (Granted)

Competition adds an extra layer of "feeling rewarded" for completion. Imagine seeing your name on top of a meaningful and constant leaderboard or having a shiny achievement on your profile, cool eh?

People who have burned out on game content and have little to do in the game unless an event or something new is added, would have a reason to play more regularly.

Bragging rights. Hopefully innocent, but meaningful.

Cons (Avoidable)

Might be meaningless to a certain type of players who don't want to compete.

If implemented wrong or unjust, it could (by rule of thumb for anything that involves competition) result in toxicity amongst people that do compete. 

Remedying Potential Cons

Do not make it so people feel missed out, don't give out rewards you can't otherwise get, it should all be about bragging rights, with extra rewards on top, but not too extra. I'd be okay with competing for just my name to show up on a list, and my profile to document my progress on that. Maybe a free [insert reward] of my choice if I'm in the top 10?

- Make it specific to a certain game mode (Like ESO) so that people who don't want anything to do with it can just avoid it entirely. Doesn't even have to be a solo game mode necessarily, would even incentivize people to get a 4-man group together and strategize, which surely is a nice and refreshing thing to do after a near-effortless farming session.

 

For what that actual game mode should be...  that's totally up for debate, as are the rewards and the leaderboard system, which is where my fellow players' inputs would be necessary and highly appreciated down below. I do have ideas of my own, but I'd like to see if people are even positive about the addition first. 

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Just now, Norburito said:

Do not make it so people feel missed out, don't give out rewards you can't otherwise get, it should all be about bragging rights, with extra rewards on top, but not too extra. I'd be okay with competing for just my name to show up on a list, and my profile to document my progress on that. Maybe a free [insert reward] of my choice if I'm in the top 10?

PvP won't get played if it isn't fun.  I too agree that some form of competition is necessary, but there are a few barriers.

PvE-focused players expect their superior equipment to carry them.

PvP-focused players expect their skill to stump superior weaponry.

Games which incorporate both systems of weapon progression and PvP must either allow all weapons to compete on a fairly equal playing field, as was the case prior to the release of PoE, or, otherwise, restrict the systems of progression during PvP.

Warframe, being primarily advertised as a PvE game, has secondary PvP with loot-motivated rewards.

What's the point of exclusive rewards if they can be earned without competing?

There are already leaderboards for every node on the starchart, they are just not openly presented, these track a competitive aspect of PvE.

Append.- I suggest you peruse the Conclave Feedback forums.

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13 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

Append.- I suggest you peruse the Conclave Feedback forums.

Why would I post in the conclave feedback forums? I mentioned in my first sentence that I'm not here to advocate for PvP by any means, the suggestion itself is pure PvE-based, so why should I?

Quote

There are already leaderboards for every node on the starchart, they are just not openly presented, these track a competitive aspect of PvE.

The leaderboards we already have are meaningless. All they do is track, nothing else.

Quote

What's the point of exclusive rewards if they can be earned without competing?

By this, I think you meant to ask what the point of rewards for a competition-based area are if the same reward can be earned without competing, right? If so, it's so that people who don't want to be involved with the competition aspect and just want to chill can still get the same outcome. This doesn't mean the reward can't be unique, it just means it can't be something unobtainable by other means or something necessary that tends to make people feel missed out. A good "exclusive" reward would be a warframe skin, it doesn't drop anywhere, but you can still get it via plat which you can get by trading. A banner, certificate, picture or emblem to decorate your orbiter is another good prize. A 'my profile' mention of your achievement that stands out and is unique to only the people who participated is also a good prize. 100 Forma for the top 50 participants is a bad prize (not that DE would ever do that anyway, just to give you a hint).

The rest of what you said had little to do with what I'm suggesting, the fact that PvP players want skill-focused competition is irrelevant, because like I said three times before, these would all be PvE based competitive nodes with a leaderboard and reward system.

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Just now, Norburito said:

Why would I post in the conclave feedback forums? I mentioned in my first sentence that I'm not here to advocate for PvP by any means, the suggestion itself is pure PvE-based, so why should I?

The leaderboards we already have are meaningless. All they do is track, nothing else.

By this, I think you meant to ask what the point of rewards for a competition-based area are if the same reward can be earned without competing, right? If so, it's so that people who don't want to be involved with the competition aspect and just want to chill can still get the same outcome. This doesn't mean the reward can't be unique, it just means it can't be something unobtainable by other means or something necessary that tends to make people feel missed out. A good "exclusive" reward would be a warframe skin, it doesn't drop anywhere, but you can still get it via plat which you can get by trading. A banner, certificate, picture or emblem to decorate your orbiter is another good prize. A 'my profile' mention of your achievement that stands out and is unique to only the people who participated is also a good prize. 100 Forma for the top 50 participants is a bad prize (not that DE would ever do that anyway, just to give you a hint).

The rest of what you said had little to do with what I'm suggesting, the fact that PvP players want skill-focused competition is irrelevant, because like I said three times before, these would all be PvE based competitive nodes with a leaderboard and reward system.

So items can be unique but still obtainable by other means?

And yes, I understand perfectly well the idea of competitive PvE, I posted my own thread about it recently, but these suggestions fall on empty ears.

PvE-based competitive nodes don't require skill or dedication?  Have you ever played Destiny?

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2 minutes ago, SheikaVoid said:

So items can be unique but still obtainable by other means?

And yes, I understand perfectly well the idea of competitive PvE, I posted my own thread about it recently, but these suggestions fall on empty ears.

PvE-based competitive nodes don't require skill or dedication?  Have you ever played Destiny?

I played Destiny before, quit in less than a week because it felt repetitive, much more so than Warframe does. I didn't say PvE-based competitive nodes don't require skill or dedication, I said the fact that Pvones do is irrelevant because that's not the target audience of this suggestion. 

I guess this all could be answered by introducing a proper dungeon/raid system that a lot of people have been craving for a while, something which Destiny has and heavily relies upon for the aspect I'm trying to vouch for. 

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Just now, Norburito said:

I played Destiny before, quit in less than a week because it felt repetitive, much more so than Warframe does. I didn't say PvE-based competitive nodes don't require skill or dedication, I said the fact that Pvones do is irrelevant because that's not the target audience of this suggestion. 

I guess this all could be answered by introducing a proper dungeon/raid system that a lot of people have been craving for a while, something which Destiny has and heavily relies upon for the aspect I'm trying to vouch for. 

Understood, and, yeah, I realized after drafting my post that you might be implying something other than what I had assumed from your skill comment, so, apologies.

I firmly believe that a system of competitive PvE is absolutely necessary for the long term health of the game, especially given that PvE-only, non-competitive content is unsustainable.  By "PvP", I mean, in the broadest sense, competitive raids, and maybe even a return to a revamped Solar Rails system where extra resources are awarded, rather than stolen from other players.

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If you want PVP, go play one of the numerous PVP focused games that already exist and are crapped out to follow the latest war soldier/battle royale/cutesy creatures duking it out craze. Those games are not trying to balance millions of combinations of frames/weapons/mods with new additions every few months. Leave Warframe for those of us that want a more PVE focused game. We were here first.

Not every game should have every flavor of the month game mode or pop culture fad added into it. Not every game needs zombie modes, battle royale, multiplayer team deathmatch, or high profile crossover cameos in it.

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9 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

If you want PVP, go play one of the numerous PVP focused games that already exist and are crapped out to follow the latest war soldier/battle royale/cutesy creatures duking it out craze. Those games are not trying to balance millions of combinations of frames/weapons/mods with new additions every few months. Leave Warframe for those of us that want a more PVE focused game. We were here first.

Not every game should have every flavor of the month game mode or pop culture fad added into it. Not every game needs zombie modes, battle royale, multiplayer team deathmatch, or high profile crossover cameos in it.

Thank you for your irrelevant input. I'm trying to get DE to give you a trial/raid/dungeon PvE mode or something similar, sorry for that. Please read and understand things before you form an opinion.

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19 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

Not every game should have every flavor of the month game mode or pop culture fad added into it. Not every game needs zombie modes, battle royale, multiplayer team deathmatch, or high profile crossover cameos in it.

"Not every game needs raids"?

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, I think the older DE approach to encounter design might be excellent for raids.  Imagine having a system where you get rated on time, alarms, damage, and what have you, within a multi-stage, high-stakes mission.

There could exist a leaderboard for teams/clans/individuals, and, while all completed raids should award something, the top performers could receive exclusive cosmetic or gameplay rewards for their efforts in the Raid, though, knowing Warframe players, any exclusivity might be viewed as negative.

Encounters could be designed around combination bosses with, say, some mixed-up encounters with old bosses and strengthened normal enemies.

I feel that, with minimal investment, raids could offers some great and engaging content.

Edited by SheikaVoid
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2 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

There could exist a leaderboard for teams/clans/individuals, and, while all completed raids should award something, the top performers could receive exclusive cosmetic or gameplay rewards for their efforts in the Raid, though, knowing Warframe players, any exclusivity might be viewed as negative.

That last thought of your is exactly why I was trying to suggest for the rewards not to be too extravagant, but now that I think about it, they absolutely should be.

In life, people who don't fight for what they want/need simply don't get them. It is a fact that the most popular and well-enjoyed games mimic some aspects of the real world like climbing an invisible ladder of progression or overcoming difficult obstacles that life throws at you, and then you reap the rewards of knowledge, payment and memories. Knowledge being experience in the trial/raid/dungeon, payment being the reward, and memories being either a leaderboard, a profile mention, or both. 

I firmly believe in rewarding those who try, while giving nothing to those who don't want to be challenged, it's just a very good and accurate representation of life within a game in which winners take all and losers get nothing. I speculate most people feel the same way about games (and life too) so after all, I don't really see an issue with exclusive rewards if it drops from the target audience's favorite type of modes anyway (PvE).

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1 minute ago, Norburito said:

That last thought of your is exactly why I was trying to suggest for the rewards not to be too extravagant, but now that I think about it, they absolutely should be.

In life, people who don't fight for what they want/need simply don't get them. It is a fact that the most popular and well-enjoyed games mimic some aspects of the real world like climbing an invisible ladder of progression or overcoming difficult obstacles that life throws at you, and then you reap the rewards of knowledge, payment and memories. Knowledge being experience in the trial/raid/dungeon, payment being the reward, and memories being either a leaderboard, a profile mention, or both. 

I firmly believe in rewarding those who try, while giving nothing to those who don't want to be challenged, it's just a very good and accurate representation of life within a game in which winners take all and losers get nothing. I speculate most people feel the same way about games (and life too) so after all, I don't really see an issue with exclusive rewards if it drops from the target audience's favorite type of modes anyway (PvE).

I feel similarly.  Sadly, it seems like, especially in Western countries, people have become very entitled and feel as though no one should miss out on rewards, which just seems ridiculous to me, though it may be my culture, because working for your gains has always been a value that my people hold dear.

You'll even see people complaining that Conclave-exclusive rewards are not accessible through PvE!

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15 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

I feel similarly.  Sadly, it seems like, especially in Western countries, people have become very entitled and feel as though no one should miss out on rewards, which just seems ridiculous to me, though it may be my culture, because working for your gains has always been a value that my people hold dear.

Why is it that people who talk about "competition" inevitably descend into some form of ad hominem if given enough time? "Oh, no - it can't possibly be that my position is unpopular. It's those OTHER people who are at fault. They're flawed and wrong and holding me back." Give me a break. Warframe is not a professional sport. By and large, its audience is neither competitive nor particularly hardcore. You can rag on people in "Western" countries as being "entitled" and whatever other pejorative you care to bring up, but the simple fact of the matter is you're in the minority. Slagging people who disagree is only going to make this more so. At best you can hope to find yourself an echo chamber.

Some of us treat our video games like we treat our toys. They're things to pass the time and entertain ourselves at the cost of money. A few years back, I plonked down ~$100 for a large Nerf Gun that I've barely used, just because I like the look of it. I didn't need to win a structured competition in order to open the box, I didn't need expert mechanical skills to put together. I bought myself a toy that looks cool and functions about as well as you'd expect. I fail to see why Warframe needs to be any different.

I'm willing to compromise on the need for progression and reward gating to a point, more because I understand that modern gaming is one giant Skinner box. However, that's a compromise to a point. I'm not really interested taking a hit to my own experience so that YOU can feel better about yourself by earning make-pretend victories against me. I have nothing to prove. If it makes you feel any better, then I'm willing to concede that you're better than me at everything. In fact, I'm willing to play with my toys where you can't see me, so you'll never even know that I secretly bought the things you "worked" for.

Video games are illusory in the first place. I've no trouble at all giving you the illusion that you're better than everyone else, just as long as I have the illusion of being awesome in my own disconnected reality. Just as long as you're aware that it IS an illusion.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Why is it that people who talk about "competition" inevitably descend into some form of ad hominem if given enough time? "Oh, no - it can't possibly be that my position is unpopular. It's those OTHER people who are at fault. They're flawed and wrong and holding me back." Give me a break. Warframe is not a professional sport. By and large, its audience is neither competitive nor particularly hardcore. You can rag on people in "Western" countries as being "entitled" and whatever other pejorative you care to bring up, but the simple fact of the matter is you're in the minority. Slagging people who disagree is only going to make this more so. At best you can hope to find yourself an echo chamber.

Some of us treat our video games like we treat our toys. They're things to pass the time and entertain ourselves at the cost of money. A few years back, I plonked down ~$100 for a large Nerf Gun that I've barely used, just because I like the look of it. I didn't need to win a structured competition in order to open the box, I didn't need expert mechanical skills to put together. I bought myself a toy that looks cool and functions about as well as you'd expect. I fail to see why Warframe needs to be any different.

I'm willing to compromise on the need for progression and reward gating to a point, more because I understand that modern gaming is one giant Skinner box. However, that's a compromise to a point. I'm not really interested taking a hit to my own experience so that YOU can feel better about yourself by earning make-pretend victories against me. I have nothing to prove. If it makes you feel any better, then I'm willing to concede that you're better than me at everything. In fact, I'm willing to play with my toys where you can't see me, so you'll never even know that I secretly bought the things you "worked" for.

Video games are illusory in the first place. I've no trouble at all giving you the illusion that you're better than everyone else, just as long as I have the illusion of being awesome in my own disconnected reality. Just as long as you're aware that it IS an illusion.

Not certain I follow the idea of being better than everyone else, but competition and exclusivity of rewards are a cornerstone of competitive modes of playing games.

I don't care if you play video games non-competitively, and I hope you can respect my desire to have an, obviously illusory, sense of virtual competition.  Also, I'm not really certain how gating cosmetics behind PvP as a reward affects your experience, aside from in the most basic sense.

I don't really see how your desire to have all the toys in the box negates the need for the occasional exclusive reward.  And, as foreign a concept as this may sound, for some people, it's not the feeling of being better, but the competition that's fun.

Edited by SheikaVoid
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6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Why is it that people who talk about "competition" inevitably descend into some form of ad hominem if given enough time? ...

Kind of interesting how you take offence at one generalisation just to then respond with another.

 

On-topic: @Norburito you've already set the stage here with your first post and are unlikely to garner favourable comments. Not that I disagree, but it is what it is. If past performance is any indication, just check out how even the PvE events with leaderboards have become fewer and fewer over time (from the wiki):

HQ8olR1.png

 

In the meantime if you want some competition, you might want to join the Conclave Discord. Easy link https://discord.me/conclave (direct invite link: https://discord.gg/0o35sDMUR9RSWTWz).

It's not in a very good state nowadays, a lot of broken things that the devs refuse to fix, but we can get you up to speed. And if you don't mind the heavy learning curve, it can be quite enjoyable once you get the hang of it. You know, actual Space Ninja combat.

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6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Why is it that people who talk about "competition" inevitably descend into some form of ad hominem if given enough time? "Oh, no - it can't possibly be that my position is unpopular. It's those OTHER people who are at fault. They're flawed and wrong and holding me back." Give me a break. Warframe is not a professional sport. By and large, its audience is neither competitive nor particularly hardcore. You can rag on people in "Western" countries as being "entitled" and whatever other pejorative you care to bring up, but the simple fact of the matter is you're in the minority. Slagging people who disagree is only going to make this more so. At best you can hope to find yourself an echo chamber.

Some of us treat our video games like we treat our toys. They're things to pass the time and entertain ourselves at the cost of money. A few years back, I plonked down ~$100 for a large Nerf Gun that I've barely used, just because I like the look of it. I didn't need to win a structured competition in order to open the box, I didn't need expert mechanical skills to put together. I bought myself a toy that looks cool and functions about as well as you'd expect. I fail to see why Warframe needs to be any different.

I'm willing to compromise on the need for progression and reward gating to a point, more because I understand that modern gaming is one giant Skinner box. However, that's a compromise to a point. I'm not really interested taking a hit to my own experience so that YOU can feel better about yourself by earning make-pretend victories against me. I have nothing to prove. If it makes you feel any better, then I'm willing to concede that you're better than me at everything. In fact, I'm willing to play with my toys where you can't see me, so you'll never even know that I secretly bought the things you "worked" for.

Video games are illusory in the first place. I've no trouble at all giving you the illusion that you're better than everyone else, just as long as I have the illusion of being awesome in my own disconnected reality. Just as long as you're aware that it IS an illusion.

Posts and standpoints like this is why Warframe has been getting the same stale and repetitive content for the past x years. "Everything's okay, let's keep the game as it is, dumbed down and easy, that's how I got used to it and that's how it shall stay." - the introduction of a raid doesn't change anything that's already in the game, it's an EXTRA layer for the people who like challenge, if you're not one of them just don't do the content and pretend the game hasn't evolved because you didn't want it to.

"Just give me a new open world so I can grind it for a month and never go back there again! New weapons!"

The game already has various time sinking mechanics and features, would it really hurt your Warframe experience so much to see something new that still fits into the theme but is intuitive and not the same exact thing you've seen before with only a minor twist? 

Also, where did this "I've no trouble at all giving you the illusion that you're better than everyone else" sentiment come from? When's the last time someone belittled you for being MR10 when they're MR28? Or that they have something you don't? No one is going to care if you did a piece of content or didn't, not in this game. Either you care about it, (which if you do, you should just do the content) or you don't care. 

 

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23 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

I don't really see how your desire to have all the toys in the box negates the need for the occasional exclusive reward.  And, as foreign a concept as this may sound, for some people, it's not the feeling of being better, but the competition that's fun.

I've yet to see a "need" for exclusive rewards. You talk about "competition," but what you're asking is for rewards to have value based on how many people don't have them. I simply don't see intrinsic value to that. I'm willing to compromise on "bragging rights," sure. However, I'm only willing to compromise if said bragging rights have no intrinsic value beyond BEING bragging rights. Cosmetics have intrinsic value beyond that. Some of hem just look cool regardless of how easy they are to obtain, some look like as regardless of how "elite" and which is which varies wildly from person to person.

I've been having this argument for over 15 years now. You can't and shouldn't gate cosmetics because cosmetics make for poor bragging rights. In 2004/2005, City of Heroes added Capes and Auras (broadly comparable to Syandanas and Ephemeras) as prestige rewards. The result was people slapping them on to look prestigious no matter how dumb it made their costumes look while a lot saw the rewards as hollow precisely because they looked dumb on their costumes. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You want prestige items? Stick to stuff like titles, portrait frames, player icons and such.

Cosmetics matter - I'd argue more so than gameplay. If you wouldn't lock unique PvE-capable guns behind PvP - or the kind of PvP by proxy "competition" you're looking for - then you shouldn't be locking cosmetics. You can have your competition through iconography rewards and leaderboards. I don't see the "need" for anything beyond that.

 

17 hours ago, Norburito said:

"Everything's okay, let's keep the game as it is, dumbed down and easy, that's how I got used to it and that's how it shall stay."

17 hours ago, Norburito said:

"Just give me a new open world so I can grind it for a month and never go back there again! New weapons!"

I don't know whose post you're reading, but it's not the one you're responding to because it says nothing of the sort. If you actually looked at it, you'd have noticed me criticising the game's grind as a Skinner box. Whomever's points you're projecting onto my words, I recommend you read them again as standalone. You may also consider what I'm responding to. Specifically, the notion of "Western gamers" being "entitled," the implication being that "non-Western gamers" are somehow superior and more cultured in the proper way of playing video games. Well, speaking as a former Soviet block Eastern European gamer, that doesn't track. Not being competitive doesn't equal being entitled. I tend to respond in the tone of what I'm responding to, and what I'm responding to is dismissive.

 

17 hours ago, Norburito said:

Also, where did this "I've no trouble at all giving you the illusion that you're better than everyone else" sentiment come from? When's the last time someone belittled you for being MR10 when they're MR28? Or that they have something you don't? No one is going to care if you did a piece of content or didn't, not in this game. Either you care about it, (which if you do, you should just do the content) or you don't care. 

I don't give a rat's ass what people think of in-game achievements - that's the point. I plonked down 1700 Plat for Arcane Grace way back in the day (and later realised I'd been ripped off). I don't "deserve" to have that because I didn't do the "work" of grinding Eidolons, but I don't care. I have my Arcane. And that's just an example, by the way. But proposing that cosmetic rewards are uniquely gated behind a competitive mode, even if it's PvPvE, is different. THE GAME cares, and that does actually affect me. It denies me stuff I might like the look of because someone arbitrarily decided that it and it specifically will be locked behind "competitive" mode.

Here's the thing. If the only way some people can enjoy the game is by feeling superior to me by having stuff I don't have, then I'm perfectly happy to accommodate - as long as it's stuff I don't actually want. That's why I proposed titles and icons and borders and so on - because I don't care about any of these things. You can have 'em all, I'll gladly admit that I'm not good enough to have 'em and we both walk away happy, no? You've succeeded in competition and gotten exclusive rewards, I've succeeded in avoiding competition and not missed out on anything I wanted. I don't see a downside.

Yes, it's an illusion, but this is a video game. It's all an illusion. Being good at video games is akin to being good at smoking - it's not a practical skill. You're good at making yourself feel good. That's a useful skill to have, but its real-world application is illusory. It carries weight only with the willing suspension of disbelief. If you can suspend disbelief long enough to accept that your virtual in-game achievements matter (which a well-designed system should help you with), then you shouldn't have to worry about what I have over here where you can't see me. I almost never play in public matches. You're never going to get teamed with me, so what I have access to literally has no effect on you.

 

Long story short: I've no issue with "competitive" PvE gameplay. None whatsoever. What I have issue with is exclusive rewards for it. If you guys claim that you're only in it for the competition and not for the sense of superiority over other players, then you shouldn't NEED exclusive rewards to engage in it.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Steel_Rook said:

I've yet to see a "need" for exclusive rewards. You talk about "competition," but what you're asking is for rewards to have value based on how many people don't have them. I simply don't see intrinsic value to that. I'm willing to compromise on "bragging rights," sure. However, I'm only willing to compromise if said bragging rights have no intrinsic value beyond BEING bragging rights. Cosmetics have intrinsic value beyond that. Some of hem just look cool regardless of how easy they are to obtain, some look like as regardless of how "elite" and which is which varies wildly from person to person.

I've been having this argument for over 15 years now. You can't and shouldn't gate cosmetics because cosmetics make for poor bragging rights. In 2004/2005, City of Heroes added Capes and Auras (broadly comparable to Syandanas and Ephemeras) as prestige rewards. The result was people slapping them on to look prestigious no matter how dumb it made their costumes look while a lot saw the rewards as hollow precisely because they looked dumb on their costumes. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You want prestige items? Stick to stuff like titles, portrait frames, player icons and such.

Cosmetics matter - I'd argue more so than gameplay. If you wouldn't lock unique PvE-capable guns behind PvP - or the kind of PvP by proxy "competition" you're looking for - then you shouldn't be locking cosmetics. You can have your competition through iconography rewards and leaderboards. I don't see the "need" for anything beyond that.

I'll only respond to the portion of your post in which I was quoted.

I agree completely, apologies if I came across in a manner other than intended.  I consider exclusive glyphs a form of cosmetic, and I wouldn't want to compromise anyone's fun through the implementation of cosmetic armor/skins/attachments/syandana/what-have-you.

Would having something to compete for in the form of glyphs compromise enjoyment?

Edited by SheikaVoid
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I've yet to see a "need" for exclusive rewards. You talk about "competition," but what you're asking is for rewards to have value based on how many people don't have them. I simply don't see intrinsic value to that. I'm willing to compromise on "bragging rights," sure. However, I'm only willing to compromise if said bragging rights have no intrinsic value beyond BEING bragging rights. Cosmetics have intrinsic value beyond that. Some of hem just look cool regardless of how easy they are to obtain, some look like as regardless of how "elite" and which is which varies wildly from person to person.

I've been having this argument for over 15 years now. You can't and shouldn't gate cosmetics because cosmetics make for poor bragging rights. In 2004/2005, City of Heroes added Capes and Auras (broadly comparable to Syandanas and Ephemeras) as prestige rewards. The result was people slapping them on to look prestigious no matter how dumb it made their costumes look while a lot saw the rewards as hollow precisely because they looked dumb on their costumes. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You want prestige items? Stick to stuff like titles, portrait frames, player icons and such.

Cosmetics matter - I'd argue more so than gameplay. If you wouldn't lock unique PvE-capable guns behind PvP - or the kind of PvP by proxy "competition" you're looking for - then you shouldn't be locking cosmetics. You can have your competition through iconography rewards and leaderboards. I don't see the "need" for anything beyond that.

 

I don't know whose post you're reading, but it's not the one you're responding to because it says nothing of the sort. If you actually looked at it, you'd have noticed me criticising the game's grind as a Skinner box. Whomever's points you're projecting onto my words, I recommend you read them again as standalone. You may also consider what I'm responding to. Specifically, the notion of "Western gamers" being "entitled," the implication being that "non-Western gamers" are somehow superior and more cultured in the proper way of playing video games. Well, speaking as a former Soviet block Eastern European gamer, that doesn't track. Not being competitive doesn't equal being entitled. I tend to respond in the tone of what I'm responding to, and what I'm responding to is dismissive.

 

I don't give a rat's ass what people think of in-game achievements - that's the point. I plonked down 1700 Plat for Arcane Grace way back in the day (and later realised I'd been ripped off). I don't "deserve" to have that because I didn't do the "work" of grinding Eidolons, but I don't care. I have my Arcane. And that's just an example, by the way. But proposing that cosmetic rewards are uniquely gated behind a competitive mode, even if it's PvPvE, is different. THE GAME cares, and that does actually affect me. It denies me stuff I might like the look of because someone arbitrarily decided that it and it specifically will be locked behind "competitive" mode.

Here's the thing. If the only way some people can enjoy the game is by feeling superior to me by having stuff I don't have, then I'm perfectly happy to accommodate - as long as it's stuff I don't actually want. That's why I proposed titles and icons and borders and so on - because I don't care about any of these things. You can have 'em all, I'll gladly admit that I'm not good enough to have 'em and we both walk away happy, no? You've succeeded in competition and gotten exclusive rewards, I've succeeded in avoiding competition and not missed out on anything I wanted. I don't see a downside.

Yes, it's an illusion, but this is a video game. It's all an illusion. Being good at video games is akin to being good at smoking - it's not a practical skill. You're good at making yourself feel good. That's a useful skill to have, but its real-world application is illusory. It carries weight only with the willing suspension of disbelief. If you can suspend disbelief long enough to accept that your virtual in-game achievements matter (which a well-designed system should help you with), then you shouldn't have to worry about what I have over here where you can't see me. I almost never play in public matches. You're never going to get teamed with me, so what I have access to literally has no effect on you.

 

Long story short: I've no issue with "competitive" PvE gameplay. None whatsoever. What I have issue with is exclusive rewards for it. If you guys claim that you're only in it for the competition and not for the sense of superiority over other players, then you shouldn't NEED exclusive rewards to engage in it.

Some people mine gold, some people buy gold.

If you had an unlimited amount of plat at your disposal, would you skip playing every part of the game that awards prizes that are tradeable? Because if so, I'm not sure you even like the game you're playing. This might just be me, but I'd never pay for anything that I can otherwise get (even if I'm able to pay), I'm not playing a game only to pay other people for my rewards. However, I understand paying for vaulted items, skins or very grind-heavy/time-consuming stuff, A raid could have rotating vaulted item prizes. It's exclusive, and it's tradeable; and from what I gathered from your posts, you'd like this part, even if you won't want to play the game mode, correct? Great, win-win for both of us, even if I don't approve of skipping gameplay with plat, it's none of my business. 

A raid could also have several exclusive cosmetics for the top groups (which are usually not tradeable on Warframe). I think this is the type of reward you're against, but listen to this: If you say you only mind missing out on things you'd want, why do you care about rewards that are SPECIFIC to a game mode that you DON'T WANT TO PLAY? You think you'll want to wear a batman costume when you hate batman? Exclusive cosmetic rewards tend to have thematic alignment with where they come from. If by whatever miraculous means you still end up liking and wanting the cosmetic, you'll have to play the game or miss out. 

And that's all I'll say about my stance on rewards, it's kind of funny to me that we don't even know what DE would decide the prizes will be or if you'd want to play the content in the first place, so at this point it's kind of pointless to debate further. Oh, sorry, we don't even know if they even want to introduce a raid at all.

Edited by Norburito
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On 2021-06-04 at 4:58 PM, Norburito said:

I firmly believe in rewarding those who try, while giving nothing to those who don't want to be challenged

Off topic: This is disconnected bullsh*t. Look around you and wake up, naivety like this does not help your point. Nuff said. Moving on. 😤

On topic: I like the idea of introducing a competitive aspect  to PvE, it would be fun to see how well you have mastered Warframe mechanics in relation to others. I think it could even act as a motivation for people to try and improve certain aspects of their gameplay. However, I don't think it should be tied to damage or kills as that would just encourage a few specific loadouts. As it stands, Warframe is not a skill based game. The person who gets to extraction fastest is the person with the fastest frame, and the person who does the most damage is the person with the glaive. Finding the aspects of the game that do involve skills and creating a competitive system based on those would indeed be cool though. 

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2 hours ago, Seorel said:

Off topic: This is disconnected bullsh*t. Look around you and wake up, naivety like this does not help your point. Nuff said. Moving on. 😤

On topic: I like the idea of introducing a competitive aspect  to PvE, it would be fun to see how well you have mastered Warframe mechanics in relation to others. I think it could even act as a motivation for people to try and improve certain aspects of their gameplay. However, I don't think it should be tied to damage or kills as that would just encourage a few specific loadouts. As it stands, Warframe is not a skill based game. The person who gets to extraction fastest is the person with the fastest frame, and the person who does the most damage is the person with the glaive. Finding the aspects of the game that do involve skills and creating a competitive system based on those would indeed be cool though. 

I apologize if my similes/wording offended or confused you. I'm overly glad you pointed it out, but sadly you're not my public speaking coach, so next time try to stay on topic, maybe that'd aid your point as well.

And no, I think it should be tied to overall score. Perhaps making the raid in a way that the holy trinity of mmos would have to shed some light onto Warframe and we'd have to get a tank frame, two damage dealers and a healer into a competent group, everyone doing their job to complete the dungeon/raid with as high of a score as possible (or like you said, different phases throughout the place for different kinds of frames that excel at speed/zone control/defense/offense/stealth).

The goal would be to come together as a group and overcome mobs/bosses/areas, and perhaps compete with other groups score-wise, promoting the will to perform better for both yourself and your squad mates. It would obviously come with the occasional impatient player raging after the first mistake and leaving, but that's just a personal issue and shouldn't be too frequent if the gameplay design is right; that said, I don't imagine it being pug-friendly at all, which at first might seem like a negative trait. but if you think about it, it brings people together. You'd have to join a clan and team up, you'd have to talk to people, strategize; social game stuff. I'd be both surprised and disappointed if the difficulty level of raids upon their potential release would be similarly underwhelming. 

Side-note: I do hope the developers know that raising difficulty doesn't mean add HP and damage to something, that's the most braindead way to go about it... erhem, steel path... - we need new gameplay mechanics, ones that actually function well and are engaging; but if nothing else, at this point I'd even be happy with a "dungeon" that simply puts a bunch of already existing game modes together and switches between them randomly, with miniature changes. I do hope that's not the bar DE wants to set though.

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6 hours ago, Norburito said:

If you had an unlimited amount of plat at your disposal, would you skip playing every part of the game that awards prizes that are tradeable? Because if so, I'm not sure you even like the game you're playing.

How do you figure? If I had unlimited amounts of money with which to buy everything so that I could enjoy the core gameplay loop without worrying about the progression system, how is that not liking "the game?" Do I like the game less than someone insisting asking "Why should I play Railjack if it doesn't offer exclusive rewards?" You can swap Railjack with any section of the game and my point stands. I would argue that someone like me, willing to play the game without progression, has a better claim on "liking the game" than someone refusing to play it without rewards.

Obviously, that might not describe YOU, but I like Warframe plenty. I just don't like the grind. And no - grind isn't content. Grind is a waste of my time. This is why I've often described this game as "not F2P but rather a paid game with a free trial." Pretty much every aspect of Warfame's progression system is designed to test patience, strain nerves and push people into paying. YOU might not do it, but enough of us to to pay for ourselves AND you. Games of this nature rely on whales overpaying for things they could normally get by a wide enough margin to cover for the rest of the game's population. That's simply a fact of the business model, and why you're unlikely to ever see a substantial change to the game's core monetisation philosophy.

 

6 hours ago, Norburito said:

I think this is the type of reward you're against, but listen to this: If you say you only mind missing out on things you'd want, why do you care about rewards that are SPECIFIC to a game mode that you DON'T WANT TO PLAY? You think you'll want to wear a batman costume when you hate batman? Exclusive cosmetic rewards tend to have thematic alignment with where they come from. If by whatever miraculous means you still end up liking and wanting the cosmetic, you'll have to play the game or miss out.

Err... I'm going to have to insist that you're playing word games here. I have no idea why you keep talking about Raids when I've deliberately made no mention of them at all, but let's go with Raids. What kind of cosmetics do you envision which are "specific" to Raids. What makes them "specific?" What aspect of them would make them simultaneously appealing to someone who likes Raids and unappealing to someone who doesn't? This statement means nothing without context. I could understand making that claim for cosmetics sharing a specific visual theme. The Graxx skins are all Grineer themed (broadly speaking), so they're unlikely to appeal to people who dislike Grineer design. But "Grineer" is not a game mode. It is itself a broad art design. If you had Raids dropping just Grineer pieces, then people who like the Grineer but not Raids would obviously be at a disadvantage.

So what is this art style which is so unique to "the game design concept of Raids" and NOTHING else that you can claim it's "specific to Raids?" Do you have examples? An explanation? Some kind of structure by which to define what is and isn't in that set of cosmetics? Because sure - I'm not fundamentalist enough to campaign for my right to purchase cosmetics I don't want and won't purchase. It's why I never talk about Ephemeras - I think they're all butt ugly and have no place on my costumes. That doesn't mean I'm never going to like ANY of them, though - DE could come up with some that I like. What if they happen to be the ones you've decided to gate behind Raids?

This is why exclusive cosmetic rewards is a fool's errand. There's no objective measure by which they can be graded between "better" and "worse" and even general art style is only a loose commonality. A cosmetic with more pointy bits, more sprites, more flappy fabric isn't necessarily "better" than a simple one. Excalibur has all manner of AWFUL skins, with Zato being easily the worst, but I like the Proto-Armour one because it's the only one with shoes - as opposed to bunion socks. Does that make it "better?" Hell, no - people are almost guaranteed to give me grief for hating Zato despite it being obviously "better" in their eyes because it's weird and more detailed and has a thrift store's worth of scarves - all things I hate.

If you can come up with a plausible explanation for what these cosmetics you're referring to might constitute, then I'm willing to listen.

 

7 hours ago, SheikaVoid said:

I agree completely, apologies if I came across in a manner other than intended.  I consider exclusive glyphs a form of cosmetic, and I wouldn't want to compromise anyone's fun through the implementation of cosmetic armor/skins/attachments/syandana/what-have-you. Would having something to compete for in the form of glyphs compromise enjoyment?

This I have no issue with. I'm perfectly happy to have exclusive Gliphs as rewards for "competitive" an other such activities. I'm also fine with extending this further. I recall Titanfall had a whole host of customisation options for the player's "card" that identified them in the abstract. You had I think a border, a background image, a player icon and I think a few others. Stuff like this I'm absolutely fine with being exclusive.

Let's invent some terms, just to make sure we're on the same page. Let's say that things like skins, hats, auras, capes and so on are part of "Fashionframe." Those I would like to be available to everyone, and I'd go one step further in suggesting that they should all be purchasable or at least tradable in some fashion (such as trading Liches with specific Ephemeras). Generally speaking, I'd like players to have as much freedom as possible in creating their fictional avatars, within reason.

Things like glyphs, sprays (forget what they're called in-game), name colours, name fonts, backgrounds, etc. I'll call "account customisation." Pretty much anything you can think of to do with account customisation, I'm fine with being exclusive. Hell, I'd be fine with introducing more ways for players to customise their accounts, such as unique poses for their Warframe/Operator, unique backgrounds and so on.

My reasoning here is this: Fashionframe is a matter of customising a fictional fantasy. I'd like for everyone to have as much freedom there regardless of what they enjoy or take part in. Account customisation is a matter of expressing the the real-world PLAYER behind the fiction. As such, I'm perfectly fine with that being entirely achievement-based, because that bit isn't fiction. That's a player's projection into the game world. That bit CAN be exclusive and where I'd like for bragging rights to be. It kind of already is. I'm pretty sure I can't get an Excalibur Prime glyph because I wasn't a founder. That's fair - I don't deserve to have one and that's fine.

Sure, we might end up with account customisation I really like but can't get because it's high-level PvP or some event I've missed, but this I can easily get over. I understand that the account is for the real person, the character is for the fiction. You can hold me to that.

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On 2021-06-05 at 8:59 AM, Steel_Rook said:

Why is it that people who talk about "competition" inevitably descend into some form of ad hominem if given enough time? "Oh, no - it can't possibly be that my position is unpopular. It's those OTHER people who are at fault. They're flawed and wrong and holding me back." Give me a break. Warframe is not a professional sport. By and large, its audience is neither competitive nor particularly hardcore. You can rag on people in "Western" countries as being "entitled" and whatever other pejorative you care to bring up, but the simple fact of the matter is you're in the minority. Slagging people who disagree is only going to make this more so. At best you can hope to find yourself an echo chamber.

Your point here is definitely correct. Warframe's community is overwhelmingly non-competitive, and any player who wants competition is certainly in the minority. However, I think it's worth pointing out that it isn't a coincidence, this happened by design. DE did have competitive Warframe game-modes for a while, but then they removed them (solar rails) or stopped maintaining them (conclave). As a result, Warframe's competitive community dried up and players moved to different games. This wasn't necessarily a bad decision, since it allowed DE to focus entirely on casual PvE content which has obviously been very successful. It does have some downsides, e.g: if you don't have competitive play then there's no urgency to balance anything, which is a problem that the devs have fully acknowledged. 

So the question is: Should DE try competitive game-modes again? As you pointed out, it'll be unpopular with the current community, but it may bring back those old players and maybe even some entirely new ones. There would be some benefits to this: competitive players will be able to provide much better balance feedback, and competitive play generally helps to reduce the cyclical nature of "content drought." There would also be some downsides: The current "casual PvE only" community members won't be happy, it may slow down the updates which advance Warframe's story, and PvP also doesn't appear to be in the devs' vision for the game anyway.

So is it worth it? Probably not. DE has a terrible track record when it comes to balancing, timely fixing of exploits, banning cheaters... - all things necessary for good competition. They also tend to neglect older content completely. So I understand where the OP is coming from, it's not a bad idea to introduce competition into a game, but it is a bad idea for Warframe unless DE hires an entirely new team to focus on the competitive aspects. I won't hold my breath!

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Warframe isn't, wasn't, and likely never will be, a pvp centric game. The game is not balanced enough for competitive scenarios, especially now with a melee/gun rebalance around the corner.

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