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What if Melee enemies could disarm melee weapons?


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Such eloquence and sound reasoning. There is no possible way for me to counter such a well articulated argument.

But I will try.

"Yes".

It is expected , anything that interferes with getting rewards (or slows it down) is going to be disliked by the average player.

It is an unfortunate situation where the game has become more and more a slot machine than an actual shooty slashy action game.

Bigger numbers are preferred over interesting engagements.

I was not trying to argue just stating my opinion on that matter with a simple no but if you want a better reason for that no it sounds annoying and im not interested in another mechanic that makes the game harder we already have a version of this for primary and secondary don’t need another one for melee.

Edited by AlexMercer
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11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Just as there is the Drahk master that can disarm ranged weapons from us

the way its implemented in Warframe is the worst game mechanic every created in any game ever!

 

I am more for just deleting this mechanic!

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Disarm melee? I don't think it will be accepted when people are putting warframe in "fast paced OP walking war crime game" box

Counter and stagger though, I can see it working to some extent to deter people from spamming E through missions. I'm sure I saw prosecutor and guardsman able to counter your melee attack, staggering you for a moment and apparently they can't do it anymore

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7 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Disarm melee? I don't think it will be accepted when people are putting warframe in "fast paced OP walking war crime game" box

Counter and stagger though, I can see it working to some extent to deter people from spamming E through missions. I'm sure I saw prosecutor and guardsman able to counter your melee attack, staggering you for a moment and apparently they can't do it anymore

Another way to discourage spam E would be a combo counter debuff. 

The combo counter is weird. It encourages you to spam E and punishes you for stopping. The strongest thing you have that builds up its own resource?

The reverse makes more sense gameplay wise.

Say, a -6% Damage Debuff to Light Attacks per combo counter after 1, maxing out at -66% on light attacks. That would encourage players to actually use Heavy Attacks or chain gun shots in between melee hits. Encouraging players to actually time their attacks for maximum efficiency.

Can always have Naramon Power Spike remove the debuff as an option for "classic" melee.

 

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5 hours ago, AlexMercer said:

I was not trying to argue just stating my opinion on that matter with a simple no but if you want a better reason for that no it sounds annoying and im not interested in another mechanic that makes the game harder we already have a version of this for primary and secondary don’t need another one for melee.

Everyone has a right to their opinions , I would prefer a discussion to have actual reasonings involved otherwise it becomes difficult to have a conversation, 

And yes , the point is to make the game harder,

Especially cause there is a version for it for guns.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Disarm melee? I don't think it will be accepted when people are putting warframe in "fast paced OP walking war crime game" box

Counter and stagger though, I can see it working to some extent to deter people from spamming E through missions. I'm sure I saw prosecutor and guardsman able to counter your melee attack, staggering you for a moment and apparently they can't do it anymore

They can block and stagger but there is a very specific pre requisite for it based on range , positioning and type of melee attack, so you won't even notice it most of the time , and status immunity reduces it too .

2 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Another way to discourage spam E would be a combo counter debuff. 

The combo counter is weird. It encourages you to spam E and punishes you for stopping. The strongest thing you have that builds up its own resource?

The reverse makes more sense gameplay wise.

Say, a -6% Damage Debuff to Light Attacks per combo counter after 1, maxing out at -66% on light attacks. That would encourage players to actually use Heavy Attacks or chain gun shots in between melee hits. Encouraging players to actually time their attacks for maximum efficiency.

Can always have Naramon Power Spike remove the debuff as an option for "classic" melee.

 

This is interesting , like a stamina bar effect where you lose effectiveness with regular use but doing a rage attack will let you replenish it.

Maybe not reduce damage from the get go , but once you reach say 6x combo then it starts affecting damage , heavy attacks don't take away all your combo , just 30% to 40% of it when used.

So having combo isn't always a detriment and you will not just go all in for heavy attacks either.

This will need to be a core change that affects mods and other melee mechanics in the game though.

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2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

They can block and stagger but there is a very specific pre requisite for it based on range , positioning and type of melee attack, so you won't even notice it most of the time , and status immunity reduces it too .

If we're looking for a "softer" alternative to disarm, what about locking you in a 2-second "cinematic sword clashing" animation with the parry unit while other enemies still shoot at you?  That should be annoying enough that most efficient players will keep their trigger finger ready, and get around PSF / status immunity since you're not knocked down and it's not a status effect.  And to maintain the power fantasy, it can even end with your warframe kicking the parry unit away and knocking them to the ground.

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2 hours ago, MqToasty said:

If we're looking for a "softer" alternative to disarm, what about locking you in a 2-second "cinematic sword clashing" animation with the parry unit while other enemies still shoot at you?  That should be annoying enough that most efficient players will keep their trigger finger ready, and get around PSF / status immunity since you're not knocked down and it's not a status effect.  And to maintain the power fantasy, it can even end with your warframe kicking the parry unit away and knocking them to the ground.

I would have disagreed with any kind of animation lock in the past , but with the existence of parazon mods and their parazon finishers this could work.

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7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Everyone has a right to their opinions , I would prefer a discussion to have actual reasonings involved otherwise it becomes difficult to have a conversation, 

And yes , the point is to make the game harder,

Especially cause there is a version for it for guns.

They can block and stagger but there is a very specific pre requisite for it based on range , positioning and type of melee attack, so you won't even notice it most of the time , and status immunity reduces it too .

This is interesting , like a stamina bar effect where you lose effectiveness with regular use but doing a rage attack will let you replenish it.

Maybe not reduce damage from the get go , but once you reach say 6x combo then it starts affecting damage , heavy attacks don't take away all your combo , just 30% to 40% of it when used.

So having combo isn't always a detriment and you will not just go all in for heavy attacks either.

This will need to be a core change that affects mods and other melee mechanics in the game though.

That is the reason why i wrote no in the first place i play the game for a different reason than you and i enjoy it i don’t want it to become harder or more annoying i already dislike the version of this we have for guns.

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6 hours ago, AlexMercer said:

That is the reason why i wrote no in the first place i play the game for a different reason than you and i enjoy it i don’t want it to become harder or more annoying i already dislike the version of this we have for guns.

And you expect people to understand your reasons by writing a single word?

As i said , its fine to disagree and have your own opinion, but giving an explanation helps people see your point of view.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And you expect people to understand your reasons by writing a single word?

As i said , its fine to disagree and have your own opinion, but giving an explanation helps people see your point of view.

I never said i expected them to understand my reasons but that single word does make them understand that i don’t agree with that idea.

Edited by AlexMercer
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It's always fascinating how people try hard to decrease fun in warframe and make gameplay worse

So many thoughts to decrease quality

Sure why not here my idea
How about enemies can land headshots which will kill you instantly with 1 shot no matter of armor/health/shield

Isn't that fun to have that thrill that around the next corner you will be deleted, sure a change to the "brain dead" gameolay

Moreover how about a hostage in every mission who has no shield and once his hp goes 0, the mission will fail, so that we have more failure in missions because reloading and failing is fun.

Finally "dismemberment" in missions, when you get hit by enemy melee attacks your strafing or your mouse (for console either right or left stick) will stop working for the rest of the mission

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5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And you expect people to understand your reasons by writing a single word?

As i said , its fine to disagree and have your own opinion, but giving an explanation helps people see your point of view.

You want difficulty? Then you need to entice DE into reworking the entire game since all this does is screw over people who use melee. If this happens, then all those people spamming some room clearing thing will just move on to the next best/easy thing.

 

Better melee combat would be great, but just removing my melee weapon would be the opposite of that, and if one of those people with OP melee weapons drop their melee weapon, they just pull out their AoE guns/warframe power and nuke 'em. Really, the option to nuke 'em means all this is irrelevant to begin with since enemies can't block your powers or guns properly. So i ask you: why screw over melee weapon users specifically?

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

It's always fascinating how people try hard to decrease fun in warframe and make gameplay worse

And also those that are afraid of change so much that they create strawmen to burn, Its just fun all around :D

16 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

So many thoughts to decrease quality

yeah , like more than what we already have.

16 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

Sure why not here my idea
How about enemies can land headshots which will kill you instantly with 1 shot no matter of armor/health/shield

cool , no idea why you pulled this out in a  discussion about melee though. But sniper enemies getting head shots would be nice where the damage is 2x like regular head shots, currently sniper crewmen and ballistas don't really do headshot multiplier damage if i am not wrong (hard to notice with shield gating and our high mobility that makes them less accurate).

16 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

Isn't that fun to have that thrill that around the next corner you will be deleted, sure a change to the "brain dead" gameolay

It actually would be, , maybe a nightmare mission where enemies have true damage on headshots.

16 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

Moreover how about a hostage in every mission who has no shield and once his hp goes 0, the mission will fail, so that we have more failure in missions because reloading and failing is fun.

That already happens in arbitration missions. maybe advise something not already in game?

16 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

Finally "dismemberment" in missions, when you get hit by enemy melee attacks your strafing or your mouse (for console either right or left stick) will stop working for the rest of the mission

oh yeah , happens sometimes ,my frame just goes "praise the T pose" and some buttons stop working. And some liches can just straight up stop my weapons , movement and abilities from working. So again , already in the game.

Jokes aside ,

maybe focus on the point at hand if you want to be taken seriously ,

there are many many many things that can be better or worse for the game if introduced,

If you go off the rails and talk about random stuff it wont really help anyone.

You are ok to disagree , just stay relevant to the point at hand.

16 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

You want difficulty? Then you need to entice DE into reworking the entire game since all this does is screw over people who use melee. If this happens, then all those people spamming some room clearing thing will just move on to the next best/easy thing.

 

Better melee combat would be great, but just removing my melee weapon would be the opposite of that, and if one of those people with OP melee weapons drop their melee weapon, they just pull out their AoE guns/warframe power and nuke 'em. Really, the option to nuke 'em means all this is irrelevant to begin with since enemies can't block your powers or guns properly. So i ask you: why screw over melee weapon users specifically?

The point of the discussion is to put forth ONE aspect of game change , it need not be in vaccum , discussion are a platform to make actual feedback for DE after getting inputs from others. And as mentioned in the beginning the objective is to torture the tenno challenge the meta.

Why melee specifically? cause they currently don't have a check in the game , there is nothing in the game you cannot melee through (maybe flying enemies pose a minor challenge if you also refuse to jump and Eidolons and Railjack , though those are more like their own game), Why now? cause there is going to be changes to melee and guns soon , might as well look at mechanical options instead of just stat changes to intoduce some risks.

Lets look at the different means of dealing damage ,their requirements and some checks that exist for them,

Guns have ammo, reload and aiming requirements ,and drahk masters and other enemies that can disarm you,

Powers have energy and need to be built differently for different frames ,not to mention energy leeches , Comba , scrambus and nullifiers that can take away your ability to cast abilities,

Melee has a requirement to press the melee button and maybe a movement key depending on your stance.

I hope i have made myself clear on why i am proposing this.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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19 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Why melee specifically? cause they currently don't have a check in the game , there is nothing in the game you cannot melee through (maybe flying enemies pose a minor challenge if you also refuse to jump and Eidolons and Railjack , though those are more like their own game), Why now? cause there is going to be changes to melee and guns soon , might as well look at mechanical options instead of just stat changes to intoduce some risks.

Lets look at the different means of dealing damage ,their requirements and some checks that exist for them,

Guns have ammo, reload and aiming requirements ,and drahk masters and other enemies that can disarm you,

Powers have energy and need to be built differently for different frames ,not to mention energy leeches , Comba , scrambus and nullifiers that can take away your ability to cast abilities,

Melee has a requirement to press the melee button and maybe a movement key depending on your stance.

I hope i have made myself clear on why i am proposing this.

When a room clearing AoE gun has some 600 ammo, you'll kill so many enemies with a single clip that you don't ever run out of ammo and you won't even need a mod for that, so that's not much of a "check". Some very specific weapons might have a problem with it (which is remove with a mod) but those are few and far between. The check for melee is that you need to go to melee range and deal with the endless spam of CC. Since there are mods to mitigate both checks, what's the difference? Powers on the other hand only have problems depending on the warframe and faction. All of that can be trivialized, just like anything and everything in the game.

 

Anyway, i don't spin-to-win or use meta mod combos to get max deeps, so why should the game be worse for me since i hate guns? Unless you want the blocking enemies to block ALL damage regardless of souce and with a very specific weakness to kill them, this just screams that you despise melee for some reason.

 

So, are you willing to take an enemy for ALL factions that can activate a shield, kinda like the nullifier shield, that block all damage unless you, say, hit a specific tile on the impassable shield with a melee attack that activates at regular intervals and is only vulnerable for a short while? Why melee? Because nullifier shield already have something to shoot at.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

When a room clearing AoE gun has some 600 ammo, you'll kill so many enemies with a single clip that you don't ever run out of ammo and you won't even need a mod for that, so that's not much of a "check". Some very specific weapons might have a problem with it (which is remove with a mod) but those are few and far between. The check for melee is that you need to go to melee range and deal with the endless spam of CC. Since there are mods to mitigate both checks, what's the difference? Powers on the other hand only have problems depending on the warframe and faction. All of that can be trivialized, just like anything and everything in the game.

I mentioned 3 things for guns - Aiming , reload and ammo, you have so far only focused on ammo (there is also recoil , magazine size, accuracy , falloff which i think can be overcome with minor skill and modding combinations so i didnt mention them)

And on top of that you are trying to use exceptions as examples , AOE guns are a small part of the gun roster , and on top of that they have their own drawback of knockback.

And then trying to say "there is a mod to mitigate it" , well that goes both ways. Hows about a mod that reduces chance to get melee countered/stolen ? you should be ok with that as well right? you willing to let go some of that damage for convenience?

As to the risk of "closing in" on enemies i have personally never seen that as a challenge in the slightest considering how mobile the frames are (irrespective of my melee weapon of choice) and constant CC is only seen in maybe 3 situations in the game (and there is a mod for mitigating that right :P ?),

Powers only have problems depending on warframe and factions? no S#&$ sherlocks, that is the biggest thing there , not all powers are equal and so there is reasons to use them in some situations and not in others.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Anyway, i don't spin-to-win or use meta mod combos to get max deeps, so why should the game be worse for me since i hate guns? Unless you want the blocking enemies to block ALL damage regardless of souce and with a very specific weakness to kill them, this just screams that you despise melee for some reason.

Spin to win hasn't been a thing for quite some time now, so i am not sure what you consider "meta mod combos"

You may hate guns , I personally like them.

And there are already enemies which are immune to everything except one very specific weakness, so that point is moot.

The thread might make me look like a melee hater , but as already mentioned multiple times , the objective is to torture tenno challenge the meta,

Its fine if it shifts to something else, i will challenge that too if it is overwhelmingly.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

So, are you willing to take an enemy for ALL factions that can activate a shield, kinda like the nullifier shield, that block all damage unless you, say, hit a specific tile on the impassable shield with a melee attack that activates at regular intervals and is only vulnerable for a short while? Why melee? Because nullifier shield already have something to shoot at.

So we are making new enemies that you are forced to using melee on now ? sure , i wouldnt mind. And i am not sure if you were around when nullifiers didnt have those drones, you could only brute force the shield or get inside the shield to damage them.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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Removing the weapon entirely is a bit much, especially since picking up special items has a weirdly long and slow animation. And considering guns are (despite popular opinion) also pretty powerful and the number of frames that give insane survivability, it probably wouldn't matter anyway. It'd be better if there were enemies that couldn't be damaged by melee, or have armor/a shield that can only be removed with a heavy attack, thus depleting your melee counter and weakening the effects of Blood Rush. Airborne enemies or enemies snipers (in actual sniper positions) are also good deterrents of melee spam. Enemies also tend to spawn and group very close together making it easier to clear them with Nukor --> CO/BR/WW combo. If you spread out the enemies a meaningful distance from each other (ideally outside of Nukor chain range) then melee becomes less ideal.

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5 hours ago, ZestyChieftain said:

Removing the weapon entirely is a bit much, especially since picking up special items has a weirdly long and slow animation. And considering guns are (despite popular opinion) also pretty powerful and the number of frames that give insane survivability, it probably wouldn't matter anyway. It'd be better if there were enemies that couldn't be damaged by melee, or have armor/a shield that can only be removed with a heavy attack, thus depleting your melee counter and weakening the effects of Blood Rush. Airborne enemies or enemies snipers (in actual sniper positions) are also good deterrents of melee spam. Enemies also tend to spawn and group very close together making it easier to clear them with Nukor --> CO/BR/WW combo. If you spread out the enemies a meaningful distance from each other (ideally outside of Nukor chain range) then melee becomes less ideal.

I do agree with what you have suggested , if all those things were to be introduced maybe there would be a sufficient check on melee as well.

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On 2021-06-07 at 5:47 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I mentioned 3 things for guns - Aiming , reload and ammo, you have so far only focused on ammo (there is also recoil , magazine size, accuracy , falloff which i think can be overcome with minor skill and modding combinations so i didnt mention them)

And on top of that you are trying to use exceptions as examples , AOE guns are a small part of the gun roster , and on top of that they have their own drawback of knockback.

And then trying to say "there is a mod to mitigate it" , well that goes both ways. Hows about a mod that reduces chance to get melee countered/stolen ? you should be ok with that as well right? you willing to let go some of that damage for convenience?

As to the risk of "closing in" on enemies i have personally never seen that as a challenge in the slightest considering how mobile the frames are (irrespective of my melee weapon of choice) and constant CC is only seen in maybe 3 situations in the game (and there is a mod for mitigating that right :P ?),

Powers only have problems depending on warframe and factions? no S#&$ sherlocks, that is the biggest thing there , not all powers are equal and so there is reasons to use them in some situations and not in others.

Why do you think most people use AoE guns? Because it doesn't need aiming and when the room gets deleted, you have all the time in the world to reload while you go forward. Anything else you said is just repeating what i already pointed out. Let's sum up your point: you can mitigate every problem for every playstyle but i want to specifically make things worse for melee (for some reason). Well, DE is going to nerf melee and buff guns with their usual way that do not solve the source of the problem.

 

Quote

Spin to win hasn't been a thing for quite some time now, so i am not sure what you consider "meta mod combos"

You may hate guns , I personally like them.

And there are already enemies which are immune to everything except one very specific weakness, so that point is moot.

I've seen people spin-to-win with room clearing proficience and incredible speed, so i guess it's just out of fashion or something. It still works though.

The only enemy that's (almost) immune in the game is ancient disruptor. Bosses that are immune are those that require you to shoot a specific spot or use a gimmick which means melee is useless from the get go. Bursa shiled is a joke since you just use guns to shoot them from afar, unlike with melee where you need to walk up to them and get stomped, Especially "fun" with multiple at the same time. You're just proving my point here.

 

Quote

The thread might make me look like a melee hater , but as already mentioned multiple times , the objective is to torture tenno challenge the meta,

Well, at least you're honest about the fact that you despise melee and all who use it.

 

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33 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Why do you think most people use AoE guns? Because it doesn't need aiming and when the room gets deleted, you have all the time in the world to reload while you go forward. Anything else you said is just repeating what i already pointed out. Let's sum up your point: you can mitigate every problem for every playstyle but i want to specifically make things worse for melee (for some reason). Well, DE is going to nerf melee and buff guns with their usual way that do not solve the source of the problem.

You didn't answer my question ,

and are now diverging and just doubling down on your exception of AOE guns , probably because you know that's the only straw you can hold onto.

People use AOE weapons for the same reason that they use melee , it requires minimum effort from the player.

What DE does or does not do is up to them , it is their game at the end of it.

39 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

I've seen people spin-to-win with room clearing proficience and incredible speed, so i guess it's just out of fashion or something. It still works though.

It works cause melee is over powered.

Any actions that involve swinging you melee will be effective.

42 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

The only enemy that's (almost) immune in the game is ancient disruptor. Bosses that are immune are those that require you to shoot a specific spot or use a gimmick which means melee is useless from the get go. Bursa shiled is a joke since you just use guns to shoot them from afar, unlike with melee where you need to walk up to them and get stomped, Especially "fun" with multiple at the same time. You're just proving my point here.

Guess again mate , there are others (and one specifically) that you haven't mentioned. Though not specifically bosses they are a rather annoying but frequent enemy in a certain game mode.

43 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Well, at least you're honest about the fact that you despise melee and all who use it.

Too general , I don't hate melee overall. Just certain aspects of it.

Specifically I hate brain dead meta slaves and AFK tacticians and any mechanics that encourages it, I have never tried to hide that fact.

Make of it what you will.

From the flow of our argument I feel there will be no further progress , I have understood your viewpoint and I don't think I will be able to change it.

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