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Helminth System instead of reworks/buffs


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So is it just me of does the helminth system just not patch useless abilities on old frames 90% of the time. 

Do you need Helminth on protea or Octavia? No because their kits are well designed, balanced and cohesive. Does everyone enjoy Protea’s 4 no but if it wasn't swappable, it wouldn't make or break her. 

Where as frames like Loki only have 2/4 relevant abilities. Helminth just makes sense.

 

Was this system designed to give us options, or remove the burden the devs felt for updating older frames? Because if all frames had cohesive kits & balance it wouldn't be so clear cut on helminthing frames.

 

I mean most of the ”outdated” frames also have outdated subsume abilities, that should get power creeped up to match the other options available. 

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Yeah let's pretend  Zephyr rework didn't happen right?

Or when the devs explained how Helminth system works, they stated "IT DOESEN'T REPLACE THE REWORKOF ABILITIES WHEN IT'S NECESSARY"
If you want state something bring proofs next time.

Cheers.

 

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37 minutes ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

So is it just me of does the helminth system just not patch useless abilities on old frames 90% of the time. 

Do you need Helminth on protea or Octavia? No because their kits are well designed, balanced and cohesive. Does everyone enjoy Protea’s 4 no but if it wasn't swappable, it wouldn't make or break her. 

Where as frames like Loki only have 2/4 relevant abilities. Helminth just makes sense.

 

Was this system designed to give us options, or remove the burden the devs felt for updating older frames? Because if all frames had cohesive kits & balance it wouldn't be so clear cut on helminthing frames.

 

I mean most of the ”outdated” frames also have outdated subsume abilities, that should get power creeped up to match the other options available. 

I think your problem comes from the fact you only look from your own standpoint (and i dont mean anything bad by it)
You see some ppl mod excalibur only for exalted blade others for radial blind and others for a little bit of everything

Same story with ember but best example some ppl mod her inferno for DoT while others for max range and short duration with max efficiency for initial hit

We are different we dont have same gameplay style what is gold for you on inaros is garbage for me

And considering all that i believe heminth was easy trick to add some diversity to how we play without breaking some warframes and shoving some fresh air up their butts

Maybe its lazy design but hey it works and it did its thing
On top of that it dont prevent any warframe abilities from being updated in the future

So however you want to put it i say it was good move

And just a side note
Imagine now updating like lets say 10 warframes and their abilities not breaking game with making it crap or too op at the same time keeping in mind they need to feel new and fresh and different from other warframe abilities and remembering there need to be new warframes with new fresh abilities added to game

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47 minutes ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

Do you need Helminth on protea

Yes, because Temporal Anchor is very weird ability that does not interact well with the usuall flow of the game, and whatever niche scenario I could come up with where it would be benefitial to use, it ends up being alot of investment for an output that will be subpar compared to bazilion other options that require much less - if any - investment.

 

52 minutes ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

Does everyone enjoy Protea’s 4 no but if it wasn't swappable, it wouldn't make or break her. 

For me it's useless "ult" on otherwise decent frame, and it's much more fun since I have replaced it with more interesting options. There are many older frames btw that are essentially 2-3 abilities ponies (where 1 or 2 abilities are essentially useless, like temporal anchor)

 

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

Where as frames like Loki only have 2/4 relevant abilities. Helminth just makes sense.

you still can only replace one per config ;)

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

Because if all frames had cohesive kits & balance it wouldn't be so clear cut on helminthing frames.

Even for ones that are indeed well designed, I could see option for people to just not like skill X and prefer to spaw it for something else.

 

55 minutes ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

I mean most of the ”outdated” frames also have outdated subsume abilities, that should get power creeped up to match the other options available. 

That may be unpopular opinion, but I did seriously consider putting decoy on protea :P

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It was for build diversity not to remove the need for reworks. 

But for reworks in general there have only been a handful of full reworks and a number of individual ability reworks ever. They aren't all that common to begin with regardless of how outdated the frames are.

 

Also because I have to pick on Loki every time he's mentioned; he only has one relevant ability which became even more outdated once Octavia released. Loki is bad and needs a rework more than any other frame now.

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when Helminth was first announced, my primary concern was that DE would use it as a shield to prevent them form doing proper reworks, but thankfully they proved me wrong. helminth should NEVER be an alternative for a proper rework for frames who need it.

the downside though is that reworks always take a long time: they have to take feedback, process it into something they like, that we might like, and that is also manageable to do, then they have to actually implement it, test it, vet it for bugs etc.. and only after that can we get a rework. 

14 minutes ago, trst said:

Loki is bad and needs a rework more than any other frame now.

finally, someone else said it!

- His Decoy should never have been made to scale based on power strength, when his kit has basically zero damage : decoy should invincible but with a limited duration.

- Invis works fine, but it's also basically a crutch, let's not lie to ourselves here.

- Switch Teleport needs straight up replacing. if people want to still switch with decoys to bypass lasers or whatever, they can aim at the decoy and cast 1 again. that way you only need one button for anything teleport/decoy related.  as for what to replace it with, I don't know, but Loki is supposed to be a Trickster in Norse Mythology, with abilities including shape-shifting, hypnosis and Telekinesis, so I'm sure there's room for creativity here (we don't have a truly Telekinetic-themed frame, maybe Loki can pick up containers and loose barrels and throw them at enemies!)

- Disarm is kinda meh without the augment, and Irradiating disarm is too simlar to Nyx's Chaos: I'd rather see a version where enemy weapons actually explode in their hands, dealing damage to them, perhaps allow him to take enemy weapons and equip them on to his Decoy to increase it's firepower? 

there's a lot of potential for Loki, if his rabid fanbase would just step aside for one second and let him get the recognition he deserves.

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Helminth has an interesting potential use, should DE ever feel like it. 

Every ability they've ever concepted for a given Frame could be put on the Helminth. Maybe even make it a different category of ability where they can only be subsumed onto the relevant Frame. 
Example being Vaubans Tesla Grenades from pre-rework.
Build a Vauban, Feed it to the Helminth under a different tab like 'research' or 'develop' and it unlocks Tesla Grenade to swap an existing ability with, But it would be unique to Vauban, Unavailable to other Frames via Subsume. 

Under such a framework, DE could create whatever ability they they ever concepted but didnt end up making the cut, Or revive old abilities that got reworked and we just grind out the frame again to feed to Helminth to unlock it. 

Gives a reason for veteren players to continue farming non Prime Frames. Non Primes have a single use purpose now thanks to Helminth, but they could make them infinitely useful. 

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I think some of us have forgotten--I've forgotten it myself from time to time--that DE said they'd make some small touch ups to "all" frames, largely in response to concerns about the Helminth system being a replacement for actual balancing. 
 
On 2020-11-19 at 3:39 PM, [DE]Megan said:

WARFRAME ABILITY CHANGES:

The first group in our “touch all Warframes” list! We aim to give each Warframe a little quality of life touch up and not laser focus on one Warframe at a time.

And I believe they said they'd use Helminth as a tool for further balancing and improvements.  Which makes sense.  What Helminth abilities are unpopular?  What native abilities are popular to replace?  What frames see the least and the most Helminth alterations?   Etcetera.


So... 

Yes, we got what was said to be the first batch of these November.  And one of those--Zephyr--ended up getting close to a full rework later on. Has there been anything else outside of the standard post-release changes to new frames, some bugfixes, and a few nerfs?  What's happening with the rest?

Maybe I've missed something they've said or done about it.  It wouldn't be the first time.  Maybe they're just postponed like so many things for so many of  us have been.  Maybe there will be more revealed at Tennocon, or in the fall.  If so, fine.  I'm having fun with the game anyway.

But in the meantime, I think people like the OP can be forgiven for looking at frames like  Loki, Hydroid, Valkyr, and Inaros and questioning what the real role of Helminth is supposed to be.  Regardless of what statements  DE made about it last year.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Tiltskillet:

But in the meantime, I think people like the OP can be forgiven for looking at frames like  Loki, Hydroid, Valkyr, and Inaros and questioning what the real role of Helminth is supposed to be.  Regardless of what statements  DE made about it last year.

Those frames have been the way they are for years and years. If someone is going to tell me that he honestly believes that they didn’t get a rework this last year because of the Helminth he better come up with a good explanation for why they didn’t get a rework in the years before.

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13 hours ago, (XBOX)Thrush iD said:

So is it just me of does the helminth system just not patch useless abilities on old frames 90% of the time. 

Do you need Helminth on protea or Octavia? No because their kits are well designed, balanced and cohesive. Does everyone enjoy Protea’s 4 no but if it wasn't swappable, it wouldn't make or break her. 

Where as frames like Loki only have 2/4 relevant abilities. Helminth just makes sense.

 

Was this system designed to give us options, or remove the burden the devs felt for updating older frames? Because if all frames had cohesive kits & balance it wouldn't be so clear cut on helminthing frames.

 

I mean most of the ”outdated” frames also have outdated subsume abilities, that should get power creeped up to match the other options available. 

"A little from column A, a little from column B" - Grandpa Simpson.

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Thrush iD:

So is it just me of does the helminth system just not patch useless abilities on old frames 90% of the time. 

Do you need Helminth on protea or Octavia? No because their kits are well designed, balanced and cohesive. Does everyone enjoy Protea’s 4 no but if it wasn't swappable, it wouldn't make or break her. 

Where as frames like Loki only have 2/4 relevant abilities. Helminth just makes sense.

 

Was this system designed to give us options, or remove the burden the devs felt for updating older frames? Because if all frames had cohesive kits & balance it wouldn't be so clear cut on helminthing frames.

 

I mean most of the ”outdated” frames also have outdated subsume abilities, that should get power creeped up to match the other options available. 

octavia is a warframe for macros. absolute fail and just embarrassing! how can you let so many useful ideas sink into a toilet?!?!?!? !!?!?!

what do you do with octavia? `?? oh yes ... hold 4 skills on cd like a monkey. tactic? good joke! you don't need it! and also generate buffs!
ABSOLUTE EPIC FAIL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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