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Belly Points: reworking Grendel's mechanics


(XBOX)Nightseid

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So I haven't played Grendel in a while, so I picked him up for a quick mission, and was just unimpressed...again. I get this frame can super powerful, he can eat enemies whole after all, but the energy costs required to get him going feels like a tasks in itself.

As such, considering most of his abilities dont cost energy but can't activate unless he eats someone I feel Grendel would benefit from a mechanic that does not require energy.

One mechanic that comes to mind is world of warcraft rogue combo point mechanic. This mechanic requires the rogue to combat tricks that adds a combo points, once they rogue sufficient points they will use a finisher move that is multiple based amount of points they consumed. The rogue can open with a finisher attack but it will be less effective. Could a similar mechanic work for Grendel? Perhaps.

Passive: 5 Stomachs - Grendel recieves a point for each enemy he eats, let's say the max is 5. Each point, gives Grendel added armor. As time passes, a point expires and restores small portion of Grendel's health. Grendel cannot feast on any more enemies once his point meter is full.

Feast - instead of vomiting enemies, when Grendel has a full combo point meter or whenever he holds this ability Grendel could blech, reducing the affected enemies armor values with corrosive gas cloud.

Nourish - instead of devouring one enemy at a time, this ability should consume them all providing a larger buff return. 

Regurgitate - a tap will spit out on enemy whereas holding the ability, will puke out all the enemies in large toxic sluge, similar to the Tar Mutalist MOA, leaving a large toxic gunk on the floor for a short duration affecting with any enemies that step on it with toxic damage. If Grendel uses this ability without having an enemy in his belly he spilt out bile that will cost him some of his health instead.

Pulverize - Grendel should be able to turn into a meatball instead of having this ability require him to have eaten an enemy. I think instead the damage it causes should be increased by the number of combo points Grendel has.

Grendel can be fun but he is underwhelming. This is mostly because I cannot use abilities unless I eat an enemy but each enemy devoured drains so much energy. So I think an non-energy mechanic may help Grendel be a bit more playable, at least in my opinion.

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14 hours ago, (XBOX)Nightseid said:

Passive: 5 Stomachs - Grendel recieves a point for each enemy he eats, let's say the max is 5. Each point, gives Grendel added armor. As time passes, a point expires and restores small portion of Grendel's health. Grendel cannot feast on any more enemies once his point meter is full.

You telling me I can only eat 5 enemies? No thanks. I’d rather take my 40 enemies in my stomach draining my energy near instantly than be capped at 5. 
 

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

You telling me I can only eat 5 enemies? No thanks. I’d rather take my 40 enemies in my stomach draining my energy near instantly than be capped at 5. 

I think you're misunderstanding them. By the sound of it, he can eat as many enemies as your energy allows, but y-

16 hours ago, (XBOX)Nightseid said:

Grendel cannot feast on any more enemies once his point meter is full.

Never mind, you're not misunderstanding them. That'll be a "no thanks" from me, as well. Reaching max benefit after X enemies (and balancing around that) sounds good, but limiting the number of enemies you can vacuum up (particularly to the single digits) would be a massive nerf.

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Yeah, this would make him terrible. Currently with spectrosiphon, Grendel is like a low A tier warframe. He can vacuum an entire room, use spectorrage, and make 300+ energy. While this is definitely a helminth band-aid situation, it is a strong build. What he really needs is nourish armor to be worth something, an energy drain cap at 10-15 enemies, his 4 to continue to scale with how many enemies he's eaten and be able to eat enemies like it was shown initially, and some kind of rework to his 3. 

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I had a similar idea before , it use a "fullness meter" instead of just points , which will fill up when something is in Grendal's stomach , and abilities will use those meter to cast . Other things , including all he can do now , remain unchanged .

...which I can't find. Sad.

 

I think being able to eat a whole room is Grendal's biggest selling point and source of enjoyment , so is probably better to not touch it . But that being said , I still agree it's necessary to revisit the mechanic so playing him will feel more fluid.

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No thanks. Grendel doesn't need to be made more complicated. His list of fixes is kind of simple, really:

  • A real passive unrelated to his Feast-ability (it's currently just a part of Feast, really). Maybe like a lesser "meatball Catapult" when doing bulletjumps?
  • Less energydrain on Feast, it should DEFINITELY not ramp up over time. It should drain more like Sevagoth's Gloom.
  • His 2nd, 3rd and 4th needs to be useable without any bodies eaten (they then cost more energy when bodies aren't used, so his 3rd is no longer free on an empty stomach).
  • His 3rd needs an additional effect to it, like a pool of corrosive acid spawning on impact Zone too.
  • His 4th's augment needs to be baked in by default, there's absolutely no reason for it to be seperated.
  • His 4 should let him cast ALL his other abilities while he is rolling around.

And that's it.

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On 2021-06-07 at 1:49 AM, Azamagon said:

No thanks. Grendel doesn't need to be made more complicated. His list of fixes is kind of simple, really:

  • A real passive unrelated to his Feast-ability (it's currently just a part of Feast, really). Maybe like a lesser "meatball Catapult" when doing bulletjumps?
  • Less energydrain on Feast, it should DEFINITELY not ramp up over time. It should drain more like Sevagoth's Gloom.
  • His 2nd, 3rd and 4th needs to be useable without any bodies eaten (they then cost more energy when bodies aren't used, so his 3rd is no longer free on an empty stomach).
  • His 3rd needs an additional effect to it, like a pool of corrosive acid spawning on impact Zone too.
  • His 4th's augment needs to be baked in by default, there's absolutely no reason for it to be seperated.
  • His 4 should let him cast ALL his other abilities while he is rolling around.

And that's it.

Meatball catapult on bullet jumpnwould be hilarious. I need this XD

On your other points though, I do need to disagree.

The buffs from his second are actually quite powerful, my current Grendel with just Energy Nourish active plus Rage/Hunter Adrenaline can keep 20+ mobs eaten indefinitely as long as something is hitting me. The only time I ever run out of energy is when the map decides to trickle one or two mobs at me. 

His third just wouldn't even work without something eaten to use as a projectile, so using it without a hapless victim would need a different effect. 

I do kind of agree that he should be able to at least cast Nourish with Meatballed. But rather than just allow the use of abilities while in ball mode, why not have them change functionality slightly?

Example being his third essentially does what the 4ths augment does mechanically. In practice, itd launch Grendel as a projectile instead of using a victim. Using the normal impact Meatball damage modifiers instead of the victims in his gut. 

Feast could cause him to catapult himself at a target, briefly going back to normal mode (with the belly flop animation) and Feasting on whatever he lands on, returning to ball mode on landing. 

 

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On 2021-06-08 at 4:20 PM, Reitrix said:

1) Meatball catapult on bullet jumpnwould be hilarious. I need this XD

On your other points though, I do need to disagree.

2) The buffs from his second are actually quite powerful, my current Grendel with just Energy Nourish active plus Rage/Hunter Adrenaline can keep 20+ mobs eaten indefinitely as long as something is hitting me. The only time I ever run out of energy is when the map decides to trickle one or two mobs at me. 

3) His third just wouldn't even work without something eaten to use as a projectile, so using it without a hapless victim would need a different effect. 

4) I do kind of agree that he should be able to at least cast Nourish with Meatballed. But rather than just allow the use of abilities while in ball mode, why not have them change functionality slightly?

Example being his third essentially does what the 4ths augment does mechanically. In practice, itd launch Grendel as a projectile instead of using a victim. Using the normal impact Meatball damage modifiers instead of the victims in his gut. 

Feast could cause him to catapult himself at a target, briefly going back to normal mode (with the belly flop animation) and Feasting on whatever he lands on, returning to ball mode on landing. 

 

1) Would be pretty fun, wouldn't it? ^_^

2) I never said Nourish was weak?

3) Like I said, add corrosive bile to it. If you have no victim to launch with it, just make it a ball of acid. It would totally work.

4) Nourish IS castable during Meatball actually. But the other two aren't.

I wouldn't mind his abilities changing up a bit how they work (Nourish already does slightly), as long as it gets more interactive. It's a really boring "exalted" ability, imo.

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11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

1) Would be pretty fun, wouldn't it? ^_^

2) I never said Nourish was weak?

3) Like I said, add corrosive bile to it. If you have no victim to launch with it, just make it a ball of acid. It would totally work.

4) Nourish IS castable during Meatball actually. But the other two aren't.

I wouldn't mind his abilities changing up a bit how they work (Nourish already does slightly), as long as it gets more interactive. It's a really boring "exalted" ability, imo.

I didn't explain myself properly on Nourish. I meant that Nourish being as powerful as it is having a side effect of needing a victim is kind of a balance. 
Maybe a severely reduced effect if you Nourish with no victim, But i can't see them allowing Nourish casts with no victim. 

If the spit had an energy cost with no victim for a corrosive glob instead, i could get behind that.

Fully agree on Pulverize though. The ball needs better controls and alt functionality for 1 and 3. 

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On 2021-06-10 at 7:12 AM, Reitrix said:

1) I didn't explain myself properly on Nourish. I meant that Nourish being as powerful as it is having a side effect of needing a victim is kind of a balance. 
Maybe a severely reduced effect if you Nourish with no victim, But i can't see them allowing Nourish casts with no victim. 

2) If the spit had an energy cost with no victim for a corrosive glob instead, i could get behind that.

3) Fully agree on Pulverize though. The ball needs better controls and alt functionality for 1 and 3. 

1) Oh ok. But I think you're overselling its power a bit. And remember that I said this: His 2nd, 3rd and 4th needs to be useable without any bodies eaten (they then cost more energy when bodies aren't used, so his 3rd is no longer free on an empty stomach).

I think that would balance it out.

Then it would look like this:

  • Nourish with bodies -> 50 energy, damages the bodies
  • Nourish without bodies -> 75 energy, no damagedealing (i.e. a waste of damaging opportunity)
  • Regurgitate with bodies -> 0 energy, launches a body with the damage it deals now, along with creating acid raining down into a pool on the first impact spot (which does continuous Corrosive damage+procs)
  • Regurgitate without bodies -> 25 energy, only launches an acid projectile (creating the pool as mentioned), but the scaling impact damage is not there at all.
  • Pulverize with bodies -> 0 energydrain, has the base damage-to-enemylevel damagescaling, plus its damagescaling based on number of bodies inside.
  • Pulverize without bodies -> 10 energy/second, only has the base damage-to-enemylevel scaling.

As you can see, having bodies is VERY sought after to amp up the abilities both in effect and in energy-efficiency. But they're not outright necessary.

2) Yup. I explained it above a little better

3) Very much so, yeah. Subsuming something else instead of Pulverize was way too easy of a choice for me (Yes, I find even Regurgitate more useful - or at least more entertaining to use, if nothing else).

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