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Roll to Remove Volt's Speed Buff instead of Backflip


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19 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Can someone explain why the speed buff hampers your gameplay so much?

Because some people are poorly coordinated and spent so much time on Hydron they never learned to parkour, and react to slight changes in their frames speeds like a drunk stumbling into walls. 

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17 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is how these threads always go because the entire premise is based on people who can't handle buffs.

Wrong, we don't WANT the dang buff. We are constantly tired of Volt's crap. How do you not get this premise of these threads? You want speed, play Volt yourself but quit forcing it on the rest of us.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Wrong, we don't WANT the dang buff. We are constantly tired of Volt's crap. How do you not get this premise of these threads? You want speed, play Volt yourself but quit forcing it on the rest of us.

You are playing a cooperative game. 

If you can't cooperate with other players and all their myriad abilities, play solo or with friends. This is a you problem. 

Anyways, saying you don't want the buff has nothing to do with his point, because he isn't arguing whether or not some people don't want it. 

He is arguing why they don't: Which is that those people cannot handle the effects properly. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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4 hours ago, (PSN)CambionDrift said:

You will not be getting a toggle.

Such assurity! You must have a direct line to the dev team! No? Then that is nothing but a bold assumption.

4 hours ago, (PSN)CambionDrift said:

If these thing bother you, you will need to workshop an idea they might implement.

  I offered a solution in a thread concerning a percieved problem. I see no reason to go clog up the feedback section with yet another thread on the same subject.

4 hours ago, (PSN)CambionDrift said:

Perhaps a gear item like the keys that once equipped makes it so certain warframes with abilities like this can’t buff you.

  So you offer a solution, that does exactly the same, but is more convoluted.

4 hours ago, (PSN)CambionDrift said:

Because they’ll delete speed before they give you a toggle for it.

Again, and assumption. You have no means of knowing this. DE has already implemented a range of toggles and sliders for players to adjust their playing experience, lately the toggle to reduce the visual effects of other players (though still not to an adequate degree in a lot of cases). Thus you have neither proper information or precedent to base your claim on.

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55 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

You are playing a cooperative game. 

If you can't cooperate with other players and all their myriad abilities, play solo or with friends. This is a you problem. 

Anyways, saying you don't want the buff has nothing to do with his point, because he isn't arguing whether or not some people don't want it. 

He is arguing why they don't: Which is that those people cannot handle the effects properly. 

Apparently it simply doesn't matter how many times it gets said, but I'll try anyway: it is not a matter of skill or an inability to 'handle the effects', it is about the whole mission having its flow drastically altered in ways many feel are for the worse. 

Moreover: you are not describing cooperation in any real sense. Some frame abilities are so very invasive that those who play them have a greater responsibility to use them responsibly than others.
Cooperation works both ways. For someone who doesn't want these buffs or for whom they are actively detrimental - Chroma still exists -  gritting one's teeth, bearing it and backflipping every five seconds (or just gritting one's teeth and bearing it in the case of a Mote) does not feel like a good co-op experience.  

A Volt, Wisp or Limbo player unilaterally deciding how a possibly lengthy mission is going to play for three others gives them a disproportionate amount of influence which some people only rarely acknowledge and/or handle in a mature way. 
That is not a 'you' problem, it's an issue with parts of the community and with DE seemingly giving up on the matter - exacerbated by actual cooperation being pretty much superfluous in the game until (if) we ever get raids back. 

DE acknowledged as much when they reworked Limbo. They acknowledged as much when they made Speed a pick-up toggle which was sadly a worse solution than none.  

It is not something to write off as a non-issue and it doesn't get solved with the nearly guaranteed 'play solo' non-argument. 

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4 minutes ago, Wiergate said:

Apparently it simply doesn't matter how many times it gets said, but I'll try anyway: it is not a matter of skill or an inability to 'handle the effects', it is about the whole mission having its flow drastically altered in ways many feel are for the worse. 

Moreover: you are not describing cooperation in any real sense. Some frame abilities are so very invasive that those who play them have a greater responsibility to use them responsibly than others.
Cooperation works both ways. For someone who doesn't want these buffs or for whom they are actively detrimental - Chroma still exists -  gritting one's teeth, bearing it and backflipping every five seconds (or just gritting one's teeth and bearing it in the case of a Mote) does not feel like a good co-op experience.  

A Volt, Wisp or Limbo player unilaterally deciding how a possibly lengthy mission is going to play for three others gives them a disproportionate amount of influence which some people only rarely acknowledge and/or handle in a mature way. 
That is not a 'you' problem, it's an issue with parts of the community and with DE seemingly giving up on the matter - exacerbated by actual cooperation being pretty much superfluous in the game until (if) we ever get raids back. 

DE acknowledged as much when they reworked Limbo. They acknowledged as much when they made Speed a pick-up toggle which was sadly a worse solution than none.  

It is not something to write off as a non-issue and it doesn't get solved with the nearly guaranteed 'play solo' non-argument. 

Given that DE has acknowledged these buffs are not always welcome

-the backflick opt-out is a clear acknowledgement that there Are People who want to be unaffected, and sets precedent that it is OK to have a squadmade buff be Removable.

perhaps it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make that opt-out Pre-Emptive? just let us have a toggle switch in Options?

I'm going to cancel it anyway, so having that cancel be automatic doesn't change the end results.

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3 hours ago, Yrkul said:
7 hours ago, (PSN)CambionDrift said:

You will not be getting a toggle.

Such assurity! You must have a direct line to the dev team! No? Then that is nothing but a bold assumption.

Exactly! Like, when we asked for a Gara glass toggle, they gave us... Oh wait. Right.

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45 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Exactly! Like, when we asked for a Gara glass toggle, they gave us... Oh wait. Right.

Yes. Sometimes DE gives their players what they ask for. At other times they have a massive brainfart and go into djinn mode, corrupting said wish. When we wanted less graphic pollution, we got a toggle. When we wanted the option to keep Gara's armour visual, we got permaglass. The poster I quoted has neither source of information, nor reliable pattern to base his/her claim on.

I find it interesting how confrontational and fallacious people get, concerning an option, that could improve the gaming experience of a notable part of the player base.

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3 hours ago, Yrkul said:

nor reliable pattern to base his/her claim on.

Humorously, your post only contains examples of DE going into djinn mode, lending credence to what that poster said.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to make fun of you with that previous post, rather to poke fun at that particular way of DE's to handle requests.

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Posted (edited)

There won't be a toggle, because DE earlier said they try anything else and toggle last, or preferably just don't change anything when the discussion was about default sprint. If they won't make a toggle for default sprint, they certainly won't make a toggle to avoid buffs.

I have to keep toggle sprint on my mouse to press everytime I finish a loading screen or get in a railjack seat, necramech or whatever.

Toggles may trash their spaghetti code.

Edited by sitfesz
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You may not like speed but if they did this it would punish people who can work with the speed and you can still backflip out of it. Rolling with the buff can make you even faster which alot of players enjoy so if I may it might be worth your time to "Git gud" at using the speed to your advantage and learning tilesets so you arent so hampered by it at all.

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On 2021-06-06 at 9:11 AM, Yrkul said:

I find it interesting how confrontational and fallacious people get, concerning an option, that could improve the gaming experience of a notable part of the player base.

Because many people, especially older ones know that development resources are already scarce on fixing the rest of the game and see topics like these as useless. In a perfect world you could have options for all this stuff, the wiki integrated into the codex, proper tutorials, and depth added to later stage content. Let's speak in reality though: this option is honestly a waste of development time and adds complicated precedence to future buffs in the game.

You either need to adapt to buffs in the game or just spend time recruiting to not get these bonuses. You can always play solo or just stay behind these players as well. Having issues with buffs is on the player, not on DE.

Edited by Voltage
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5 hours ago, Voltage said:

You either need to adapt to buffs in the game or

See, here's the kicker: The constant shifting back and forth in movement speed is giving me tension headaches. So the perpetual argument of "Git Gud" isn't really cutting it here. It is like telling people with simulation sickness to "Just stop puking".

Besides, DE is already allocating resources to options aimed at players with varying accessability issues and preferences, some sorely warranted and some major headscratchers. So if enough people have a problem with the speed buffs, that justifies at least a consideration of implementing an op-out feature in one form or another.

In the meantime I AM playing solo on most content already, while people keep saying "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game".....

Edited by Yrkul
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It goes a bit deeper than just Volt's Speed buff. It's the game's design over the last many years.

That is. It's a multiplayer game where players don't actually rely or need each other to do anything.

Long ago players would check each other on what frames they were playing and attempt team synergy. Going long runs in the void for key efficiency mattered. Specialized farming groups for mods, gear, rep, whatever, mattered. If you go real far back to Damage 1.0 then even completing some basic missions mattered.

None of this matters now though so players simply pick whatever frame they want because it doesn't matter if it hinders the or helps the group. The bar for success is so low it's a given. Nearly automatic. You can do everything wrong and long as you invest the time you will get what you want. Add to this that rewarding players for actually synergizing and thinking about how to approach a mission is near entirely absent and you have a solo-multiplayer game, not really a co-op game.

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On 2021-06-05 at 10:01 AM, TARINunit9 said:

See, I'm still not sure that's a good idea. Rolling can be used while moving forward, yes, but it's also used to preserve (and in some cases, increase) forward momentum, such as when ending an aim glide, or when landing from a bullet jump to cancel the "hard landing" animation. If I'm doing those with Volt's 2 buff, I actually want to KEEP the buff

See, I'm not sure [backflip cleansing] is a good idea. Backflipping cannot be used while moving forwards, it does not preserve (or increase) forward momentum outside of pulling off some snappy mouse gymnastics to spin 180 degrees, backflip and spin back in one smooth motion. If I'm doing that to cleanse Volt's 2 buff, I didn't want the buff INTERFERING with my game.

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1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

See, I'm not sure [backflip cleansing] is a good idea. Backflipping cannot be used while moving forwards, it does not preserve (or increase) forward momentum outside of pulling off some snappy mouse gymnastics to spin 180 degrees, backflip and spin back in one smooth motion. If I'm doing that to cleanse Volt's 2 buff, I didn't want the buff INTERFERING with my game.

then what is it? u want to go fast, or u dont?

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On 2021-06-12 at 12:56 PM, Yrkul said:

See, here's the kicker: The constant shifting back and forth in movement speed is giving me tension headaches. So the perpetual argument of "Git Gud" isn't really cutting it here. It is like telling people with simulation sickness to "Just stop puking".

Besides, DE is already allocating resources to options aimed at players with varying accessability issues and preferences, some sorely warranted and some major headscratchers. So if enough people have a problem with the speed buffs, that justifies at least a consideration of implementing an op-out feature in one form or another.

In the meantime I AM playing solo on most content already, while people keep saying "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game", "Warframe is a co-op game".....

At risk of stating the obvious, you are really missing his point here. 

It's like you read what he said, took in none of it, and repeated yourself. 

Its clear you missed the point. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed it because you simply didn't want to see it. 

DE is NEVER going to open up that can of worms of letting people opt out of any buffs, because if they did that, it would be a pandoras box where now they are expected to let people opt in or out of every buff in the game. 

Do you have ANY idea just how much spaghetti code complications and bugs that would create, for so, so, so very little gain? Do you have any idea how staggering a task that is, and what you are really asking for? 

Instead, players who for some reason, just really hate some other frames buffing abilities, and lack the ability to cooperate with other randoms in a COOP game, can play solo, or use recruit chat, and COOPERATE with others by forming their own group, because they are a little more picky about who they play with. 

What you are suggesting is never going to happen, and you are quite frankly deluding yourself if you think this request is going to fall on anything but deaf ears. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

At risk of stating the obvious, you are really missing his point here. 

It's like you read what he said, took in none of it, and repeated yourself. 

Its clear you missed the point. But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed it because you simply didn't want to see it. 

I replied to the claim, that "Having issues with buffs is on the player, not on DE", as well as the whole resource starvation trope. Only part of my reply could be interpreted as a repitition of a previous argument, or could be viewed as a needed elaboration. But I guess you aren't that generous.

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

DE is NEVER going to open up that can of worms of letting people opt out of any buffs, because if they did that, it would be a pandoras box where now they are expected to let people opt in or out of every buff in the game. 

Do you have ANY idea just how much spaghetti code complications and bugs that would create, for so, so, so very little gain? Do you have any idea how staggering a task that is, and what you are really asking for? 

  That is conjecture. You might say we're constantly seeing the cascade of bugs and glitches due to DE messing around in said spagetti code, but they constantly do that already, implementing features whose gain is very much subjective. If I seem to be repeating myself, it might be because people are throwing the same fallacies around over and over and over again.

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Instead, players who for some reason, just really hate some other frames buffing abilities, and lack the ability to cooperate with other randoms in a COOP game, can play solo, or use recruit chat, and COOPERATE with others by forming their own group, because they are a little more picky about who they play with.

  And we're back to blaming people for choosing the built-in PUG feature. Sure, I really want to spend 5-10 minutes in LFG between each mission (that usually take between 3 and 10 minutes). Sorry, mate. That's just asinine.

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

What you are suggesting is never going to happen, and you are quite frankly deluding yourself if you think this request is going to fall on anything but deaf ears. 

  Conjecture once again, that goes against already observed patterns. I could elaborate, but that would probably be construed as repeating myself, which seems to rub you the wrong way.

The bile in this thread... Seriously. One would almost think this was an auction house thread.

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8 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

then what is it? u want to go fast, or u dont?

I want to go forwards without backflipping every 5 seconds. I go faster without non-consensual momentum changes.

3 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

DE is NEVER going to open up that can of worms of letting people opt out of any buffs, because if they did that, it would be a pandoras box where now they are expected to let people opt in or out of every buff in the game. 

Do you have ANY idea just how much spaghetti code complications and bugs that would create, for so, so, so very little gain? Do you have any idea how staggering a task that is, and what you are really asking for? 

The game already has checks and balances to selectively allow and disallow effects - no energy regen effects when channelling, general Nullifiers and even typed nullification from Combas. Probably more I'm not thinking of, offhand.

The game already references external settings with abilities - tap/hold inversion for example. Arguably also some of the graphics settings for things like invis colour correction and screen shake (since we've seen cases where shake being turned off still didn't apply to some).

DE already acknowledge that effects can be unwanted, but we need prevention not a cure.

 

Adding a callout to new opt-out settings in the same conditional block should not be hard. The 'hard' part is taking the time to decide on what categorical definitions the system is using. For which we've already given several suggestions in the past.

3 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Instead, players who for some reason, just really hate some other frames buffing abilities, and lack the ability to cooperate with other randoms in a COOP game, can play solo, or use recruit chat, and COOPERATE with others by forming their own group, because they are a little more picky about who they play with. 

What you are suggesting is never going to happen, and you are quite frankly deluding yourself if you think this request is going to fall on anything but deaf ears. 

It's not a buff if it hinders your gameplay.

It's not co-operative if it's forced on you without your consent or agency.

Reactive cleansing (with no way to prevent reapplication either) is not good enough. At that point, the recipient's gameplay has already been interfered with, and is interfered with again whenever the player casts. 
It's like getting switch-teleported around repeatedly by a particularly trolly Loki player, except they don't actually have to hang back and aim at you with that specific intent.

That's not even counting the build-intrusive effects which you can't even cleanse. Small-shield gating build? Hildryn. Molecular prime at neutral or for speed? Growing power, power donation, and Equinox. Rage/adrenaline is your energy economy cornerstone? Hildryn again, and other generators of overshields, and even friendly damage reduction buffs.

The game is complex enough that allied effects are not always helpful; the agency for whether your build needs to avoid them should be with you - and not require you to demand others avoid using them to suit you.

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52 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes, that's the point. You can only cleanse the buff by stopping moving. That's on purpose

So to avoid the interference you... have to be interfered with. See? The argument works just as well both ways. Nothing personal, just needed a good logical-inversion example.

Rolling isn't good for anyone who wants it. Backflipping isn't good for anyone who didn't want it in the first place either.

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1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So to avoid the interference you... have to be interfered with. See? The argument works just as well both ways. Nothing personal, just needed a good logical-inversion example.

It would be good, if I agreed with your underlying problem: that Volt's 2 is bad

It's not bad, it's freaking great. There are SOME occasions I don't want it, but they are basically all Nezha-related, and even then only when I am trying to refresh Argon Scope. Every other frame I have, they love friendly Volts with the awesome speed boosts. The benefits far outweigh the downsides (virtually none) and the annoyances (very rare) combined

You only need to avoid interference that actually exists

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6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It would be good, if I agreed with your underlying problem: that Volt's 2 is bad

It's not bad, it's freaking great. There are SOME occasions I don't want it, but they are basically all Nezha-related, and even then only when I am trying to refresh Argon Scope. Every other frame I have, they love friendly Volts with the awesome speed boosts. The benefits far outweigh the downsides (virtually none) and the annoyances (very rare) combined

You only need to avoid interference that actually exists

That's you, though. You are not me nor anyone else who finds it intrusive, and you do not get to say it's not interfering with our gameplay and/or enjoyment. We might not even manoeuvre around in the same general manner, so the effects could be felt very differently. (Anecdotally, Speed seems to affect momentum more so than something like Wisp's Haste Mote; that slippery momentum is the bulk of the issue.)

It's unpredictable, because you have no idea when it's going to be cast onto you from someone else. The actual effect varies wildly depending on the other person's build, which is the biggest problem - you don't just have to learn 'with' and 'without', the strength of the ice physics and how long they last can be different for every new Volt you run into.

 

Something that affects core control and pace is an intrusive effect, whether you like it or not. DE already know it can be an interference, that's why the backflip exists, but it's no more useful for the job than it would be to have Speed while not being able to roll without losing it.

You say your own problems are Nezha-related. Speed to us is like having Nezha's passive forced onto you at the behest of others, only it's not just slippery sliding, and let's not forget, Nezha even has a mod to turn off his own passive if it's unwanted.

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