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Sustainable Rewards + bringing Weapons on par with Melee in one step?


DreisterDino

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Edit: Now that the Dev-Workshop is out - i would have no problem turning my suggestion into those Weapon Arcanes,

meaning they become permanent items. I would still like it to be the way i suggested it in the first place, but thats not the most important factor of this suggestion anyway.

 

Hey there,

 

so there are 2 topics discussed pretty often, one recently with DE's plans to change the Melee/Gun Balance:

  • what are sustainable rewards? (or Endgame/Evergreen, whatever you wanna call it)
  • what are the possibilites to make guns a better choice?

 

My idea for this are temporary Weapon Attachments with the following features:

 

  • Each Primary/Secondary has 2 Slots for different attachments (compareable to Arcanes)
  • once equipped, these attachments have a lifespan of either a) 7 days or b) 7 hours of actual ingame Mission time (numbers are random, it depends on the rarity)
  • these attachments can modify the weapon's utility - nothing which adds damage directly (like +Damage or +Multishot etc)

 

  • The Attachments can drop in ESO/Arbitrations/Railjack/Eidolons/Orbs
  • can be bought from Vendors like Smokefinger, Father or from the Syndicates

 

Note: I am fully aware that you might dislike the idea of items which only last for a certain time, i dont really like this for Argon Crystals for example aswell, and i would never want to have this system for the actual weapons, warframes, Archwings etc. But in this case, i think it might be a good solution, and the drops should be frequent enough + the prices from the vendors should be reasonable so that you should be able to always obtain the attachment you want to try out.

 

I just want to give a few examples for possible attachments, since this is Warframe the possibilities are basically endless.

Attachments could either do stuff which some mods can already do or add new mechanics to a weapon.

 

  • explosive bullets: when a bullet hits an enemy, it deals AoE-Damage in a certain radius
  • smart bullets: when bullets come close to an enemy (like 1 meter or something like that) they auto-target it
  • split bullets: when enemies are close to each other, each bullet will fall apart into 2 fragments, each hitting a different enemy (damage split or full damage for each fragment?)
  • disrupting bullets: impacts attract enemy aggro
  • magnetic bullets: impacts create a forcefield, trapping enemies and enemy projectiles in it

 

  • enemy sensor: aiming down sight will highlight enemies through walls and obstacles
  • simaris sensor: aiming down sight will find weakspots - hitting those enhances the damage

 

  • enhanced magazine: Magazine size increased
  • healing magazine: aiming at allies will heal them (maybe only for beam weapons for example?)
  • regenerating magazine: every 2 bullets hitting an enemy will give you 1 bullet back to the magazine

 

  • lasersight: when aiming at enemies, they will be blinded (unable to move) for a few seconds
  • scopes: aiming down sight will add a sniperscope (different magnitudes possible)
  • grips: reducing recoil or faster holster speed

 

Then there could be also combinations like this:

Smart bullets will track enemies marked with enemy sensor and are able to fly around corners.

 

I think this could be a cool addition which can make guns better and bring them closer to Melee (although this will not be THE change to solve all problems, i am fully aware of that). It could also give us room for experiments, certain attachments might be great on certain weapons while being useless on others.

And finally, having these items in the Droptables will be something you might always need, unlike all the Rewards you only need once (i was trying to get Nautilus for example until today, the amount of useless duplicate Sevagoth and Nautilus parts i got were simply frustating, if these drops would have been weapon attachments i would have been a lot happier).

 

An Idea i just had while typing this 😁

Droptables could also change according to what you already got from them, so if you got you full set of a nontradeable weapon/warframe,

these drops could be switched to weapon attachments. (ofc there should be a way to set it to default if you want to farm another set for some reason).

 

What do you guys think?

Do you have ideas for fun weapon enhancements?

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb Kontrollo:

Interesting idea.

I would add to it that not all of these would even have to be enhancements, but some could be cosmetic. Like Peculiar Bloom.

Well, i think it would be really cool if you could even see the Attachments on the weapons, but thats never gonna happen^^

 

But i agree, these attachments could be anything.

So far i focussed on stuff which could negate the main drawbacks guns have over Melee, so:

  • adding aoe damage (explosive bullets/split bullets)
  • adding CC-potential and survivability while using guns (lasersight/disrupting bullets/magnetic bullets)
  • adding other utility Melee simply doesnt offer (like enemy sensor)

 

Regarding subforum, well i just want to see what others think and what ideas you might have 😉

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48 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

what are the possibilites to make guns a better choice?

 

48 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

these attachments can modify the weapon's utility - nothing which adds damage directly (like +Damage or +Multishot etc)

With Warframe focusing so much on damage (because scaling everything exists), these two principles don't really jive. To make guns a better choice practically requires damage upgrades of some kind. These need not be direct or straightforward DPS upgrades, mind: anything that boosts damage dealing to a crowd of enemies is ideal.

Likewise, the following attachments:

48 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:
  • explosive bullets: when a bullet hits an enemy, it deals AoE-Damage in a certain radius
  • split bullets: when enemies are close to each other, each bullet will fall apart into 2 fragments, each hitting a different enemy (damage split or full damage for each fragment?)
  • simaris sensor: aiming down sight will find weakspots - hitting those enhances the damage

Are likely to end up being the "attachment meta", given they increase damage via multi-target multipliers (questionable with split bullets) or weakpoints. That isn't necessarily bad that they do increase overall average DPS, but it does go against the "utility" grain, and leaves a lot of the other ones in the dirt.

48 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Note: I am fully aware that you might dislike the idea of items which only last for a certain time, i dont really like this for Argon Crystals for example aswell, and i would never want to have this system for the actual weapons, warframes, Archwings etc. But in this case, i think it might be a good solution, and the drops should be frequent enough + the prices from the vendors should be reasonable so that you should be able to always obtain the attachment you want to try out.

Personally, I don't have a problem with limited time items, so long as they're done well. The big thing to consider is that some players won't have more than a few days a week to play. If it takes a good day's worth of grind to get an item that runs out in 3 IRL days, it might not be possible for that person to get any use out of what they earned. Even if they have it for 7, they only get it for a few days compared to others who get the full 7 - so how worth it is depends on one's schedule.

IMO the best solution for limited items is to allow stockpiling, whether by material acquisition + instant craft times, or by usage based on game time ticks. Or, I'd say, both. The pain with Argon Crystals is that they're the exact opposite: they burn out explicitly to prevent stockpiling. So you only go after them when you happen to need them. Try to do that with this attachment system, which isn't even necessary to build anything else, and a lot of people probably wouldn't bother even when it is an objective, DPS improvement. They'll just spend the time with their extant AoE / branching weapon of choice.

(Indeed, something like "limited items using extant resources" is probably the best way to let players burn through resource stockpiles, the second best being transactional ones like Ticker's debt bonds. It's the one thing I felt was missed out with the abandonment of the Echoes of Umbra idea.)

EDIT:

49 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

healing magazine: aiming at allies will heal them (maybe only for beam weapons for example?)

If you wanted to make this really competitive even in the DPS meta, you could make it that hitting a downed ally drains the magazine / forces a reload and revives the ally instantly. That might seem overkill but we're so full of personal healing options that by the time you could heal someone the regular way, they're either at a level where death comes first, or they've done whatever is needed to self-heal. If you make it counteract the former, though, then it works with extant self-heal options. And with any support frame.

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The most sustainable reward would be good gameplay and not about the end-of-mission reward S#&$ because once you've got it there's no point in playing if the gameplay is crap.

when gameplay is good, it's fun to play and any reward is just bonus

Warframe doesn't use the environment to its strength in any meaningful way. When it does it is simply "from point A to point B" (see: parkour tiles in Jupiter) without any kind of effort/attention required, or it's required by the devs and not in anyway emerged from the agency of the player (see: Ropalolyst boss can be considered "environmental use" but it is not possible to complete the fight without it)

Wall hopping is crap and unreliable, I don't use it simply because it's not fun to ZOOM IN TO WALL-LATCH. Who designed this? I want to give them a brutal slap. Why haven't they implemented real wall-running? Is it because the tiles are complied from pre-fabricated assets and each asset has their own collision box, thus creating these small odd edges that makes it impossible for real wall-running? I don't know. But being able to actually cling to the wall, freely navigate on it without this strange control scheme would be excellent for long-term enjoyment. Plus, for some reason the wall-melee is still there despite not having any real use. Go ahead, try wall-latch and melee.

Rooms are still connected with single doorways. I had wished Deadlock Protocol tileset rework would bring in new design paradigms by allowing rooms to be connected with more than just a single door/gate. But my low expectation did not betray me lol.

The entire game lacks both cohesion and coherence in many ways. The only joy for me left is to decorate my dojo until the end times.

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

 

With Warframe focusing so much on damage (because scaling everything exists), these two principles don't really jive. To make guns a better choice practically requires damage upgrades of some kind. These need not be direct or straightforward DPS upgrades, mind: anything that boosts damage dealing to a crowd of enemies is ideal.

 

At least my experience is that i dont have a problem dealing enough damage with guns even at "higher" levels like 100. I think the numbers are fine on many guns.

The problem i observed is that

  1. melee is way quicker because you dont have to aim and can hit much more enemies at the same time and
  2. i am much more vulnerable to enemy gunfire when using my guns because i move less, so squishy frames can get into trouble

 

Thats why i think a straight up "weapon does 200% more damage" would do nothing on single target weapons because the damage output wasnt the real problem to begin with. Edit: For example, i play with Soma Prime again now, and i can get hits with 10k+ damage per bullet. this means when i solo, i have no problems killing the enemies - but as soon as i play with other players, everything is dead before i can even aim at it because they can just melee through everything mindlessly 😛

 

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

Are likely to end up being the "attachment meta", given they increase damage via multi-target multipliers (questionable with split bullets) or weakpoints. That isn't necessarily bad that they do increase overall average DPS, but it does go against the "utility" grain, and leaves a lot of the other ones in the dirt.

thats true, those attachments do increase the dps, i just think its still different than a simple "+ x amount of damage".

 

considering the Meta: Like with all systems, there will be a Meta at some point.

I didnt mention it, but the 2 slots should be only able to holster different types of attachments,

so you cannot add 2 bullet enhancements. That way, i am sure the other more utility based attachments will still find their home, if only on certain weapons.

 

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

Personally, I don't have a problem with limited time items, so long as they're done well. The big thing to consider is that some players won't have more than a few days a week to play. If it takes a good day's worth of grind to get an item that runs out in 3 IRL days, it might not be possible for that person to get any use out of what they earned. Even if they have it for 7, they only get it for a few days compared to others who get the full 7 - so how worth it is depends on one's schedule.

i fully agree, i am in favour of my 2nd option, so the timer runs in actual ingame mission time.

That way, everyone gets the same out of each drop, no matter how frequent he or she plays.

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11 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Thats why i think a straight up "weapon does 200% more damage" would do nothing on single target weapons because the damage output wasnt the real problem to begin with.

Indeed, I agree. But what things like "explosive rounds" do is generate damage multipliers by applying that damage to multiple targets. Consider damage less from a single-target perspective and more in line with the horde nature of the game; in this sense, considering it as "damage done per shot" rather "damage done to a given target", hitting more enemies with a single shot is, effectively, a damage multiplier. And it's that kind of damage multiplier we care most about. (single-target damage multipliers do have their place against boss fights, though - it's why I highlighted that one regardless)

11 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

thats true, those attachments do increase the dps, i just think its still different than a simple "+ x amount of damage".

Different in kind, yes, but they're also different to the other utility attachments that probably won't see a ton of use.

Likewise:

11 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

I didnt mention it, but the 2 slots should be only able to holster different types of attachments,

so you cannot add 2 bullet enhancements. That way, i am sure the other more utility based attachments will still find their home, if only on certain weapons.

Thing is, the other utility attachments are likely to be used by happenstance, not on purpose. For example, if I farm up an explosive rounds, I might use a medi clip if I happen to get it at the same time. And if the menu to attach it isn't too cumbersome. Any other circumstance, I'm not likely to bother. Certainly wouldn't bother if it uses any sort of shared resource, e.g. if it isn't just a straight drop in and of itself. And I'm one who fancies playing support in most games.

While a meta of some kind is inevitable, that kind of "I might use it if I happen to get it by accident" meta probably isn't ideal.

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4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

My idea for this are temporary Weapon Attachments with the following features:

Ok, but.. why? Seriously why? What it makes more "fun" to re-acquire those items? It would become another job as in: "I love X. Oh... X expired...LO AND BEHOLD hi Father... bla bla bla".

Just give me an item...

4 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Are likely to end up being the "attachment meta", given they increase damage via multi-target multipliers (questionable with split bullets) or weakpoints. That isn't necessarily bad that they do increase overall average DPS, but it does go against the "utility" grain, and leaves a lot of the other ones in the dirt.

You can always group certain effects together. You could pick 1 item from N groups.

For example:

2 groups:

- Healing:

-- on headshot - aura that heals you for 10 second by 20%

-- on hit - heals 5%

- Bullet types:

-- bullet split into 3 bullets dealing 100% damage

-- bullets explode on impact dealing 50% damage in 10m radius

 

You can pick for example Healing on headshot + bullet split into 3 bullets OR Healing on hit + bullet explode.

 

 

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11 часов назад, DreisterDino сказал:

nothing which adds damage directly (like +Damage or +Multishot etc)

 

11 часов назад, DreisterDino сказал:

explosive bullets: when a bullet hits an enemy, it deals AoE-Damage in a certain radius

ok i almost believed you

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12 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

what are sustainable rewards? (or Endgame/Evergreen, whatever you wanna call it)

My understanding of these terms:

  • Sustainable rewards are ones that keep players coming back to the attached missions. These are mostly evergreen rewards
  • Evergreen rewards are ones that still feel valuable on repeat drops. The blueprints of a Warframe are not evergreen, because once you get one copy of each blueprint (or two each including a Helminth set), those drops don't have any importance for the player. They are "dead drops." Resources like Endo and Kuva are evergreen rewards, because players have continual use for them. They remain "green."
  • Endgame rewards are ones that drop from the most difficult and/or involved content the game provides, but since Warframe doesn't really have an "endgame" this category is a misnomer. 
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The idea of having something like 1-time use weapon utility attachments such as mag capacity, better accuracy or recoil etc. is not a bad one, but anything that increases dps could mess up the already inexistent/poor balance we have even more

It all depends what changes they make in future updates

As for endgame rewards, well, still waiting for and actual endgame to be introduced, all we have is rinse&repeat or hours long survival missions with little to no challenges or difficulty

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  • 2 weeks later...
Am 6.6.2021 um 10:49 schrieb --EC--Adrenaline:

The idea of having something like 1-time use weapon utility attachments such as mag capacity, better accuracy or recoil etc. is not a bad one, but anything that increases dps could mess up the already inexistent/poor balance we have even more

It all depends what changes they make in future updates

Seems like this is everything DE could come up with again...

If you look at the Dev-Workshop, the Arcanes basically all say the same:

"On kill: + x damage"

 

Still, i think this will neither solve the problem, nor will it mess up the current balance.

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