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Like a fellow Tenno said, no more melee attack speed, now it's attack delay/interval


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From recent devstream, looks like we're being capped on having attack speed increase on melee because of many things happened (I have to say, spinning a massive blade like galatine prime/gram prime like a blender is kinda hilariously stupid) to make them sort of in line

A fellow Tenno in this forum put a nice suggestion where instead of increasing attack speed, mods now increase animation recovery/attack delay, making weapons having their speed unchanged but still allowing you to hit enemies rapidly in somewhat humane speed

Let's say heavy blade

- Attack speed : 0.9

- Attack delay : 0.5 second (recovery : 1)

so with new mods, instead of increasing attack speed (30%) to 1.2, attack delay is reduced to 0.38 second, making you able to swing it faster but still having the heavy feeling of the weapon, not a giant blender blade spinning like mad anymore

What do you think? Worth trying as a feedback?

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Posted (edited)

Frog in a blender is not my melee weapons, I don't use attack speed mods, though in a way I do by way of Berserker on my Scindo Prime so how will that affect me I wonder.

Build:
Stance: Cleaving Whirlwind
Condition Overload - Blood Rush - Primed Reach - Virulent Scourge - Berserker - Drifting Contact - Weeping Wounds -
Riven Mod: Critical Damage +95%, Range +2.2, Melee Damage +205.2%,  -121.8% Critical Chance for Slide Attack.

So where am I going to place your hypothetical mods on my build without totally destroying my build.

Edit:
Non Heavy Attack I use on my Scindo Prime, in-case anyone was wondering, though pretty easy to tell the difference. 🤔

Edited by Slayer-.
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That would essentially remove standard melee attacks from the game. Melee would now be heavy attacks and heavy attacks that don't have heavy attack modifiers. If the goal is to make me quit the game you're on the right track. 

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12 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Frog in a blender is not my melee weapons, I don't use attack speed mods, though in a way I do by way of Berserker on my Scindo Prime so how will that affect me I wonder.

Build:
Stance: Cleaving Whirlwind
Condition Overload - Blood Rush - Primed Reach - Virulent Scourge - Berserker - Drifting Contact - Weeping Wounds -
Riven Mod: Critical Damage +95%, Range +2.2, Melee Damage +205.2%,  -121.8% Critical Chance for Slide Attack.

So where am I going to place your hypothetical mods on my build without totally destroying my build.

Your build wouldn't change. 
What would change is how Attack Speed modifies the relative speed of your attacks. 

To make it easier to understand:
Presently, Attack Speed is Animation Speed. There is no delay whatsoever between swings. Even with slow Attack Speeds. 

What the OP refers to is something i mentioned in another thread (I'm surprised to see a whole thread dedicated to the idea tbh)

Example, Swinging with your Scindo would take 10 animation frames with a 0.5 second "cooldown" between the completion of one swing and the beginning of another. 
Adding your Berserker onto that wouldn't change the 10 frames of the swing itself but iut would reduce the cooldown before you can swing again to 0.2 at max stacks. 

However, if you added a Negative Speed Riven (Like my Shildeg), Instead of taking 3 whole seconds to do one single swing of the weapon, it would be 10 animation frames and then a cooldown of 1 ~ 2 seconds depending on how bad the Negative was. 

The major change in gameplay then, would be to allow a slow Heavy Blade build to actually launch an attack and then let you shoot while its in the 'cooldown' phase between swings. 
A high speed Heavy Blade build would take 10 animation frames to swing the blade and then swing it again 0.3~ seconds later. You'd still be swinging 3 times per second. 
However! Smaller weapons like Daggers and Swords would have much faster swing animations, making them offer a different melee experience compared to a Heavy Blade. 

I am terrible at explaining my thoughts, but i hope that clears up a bit of misunderstanding?

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To me this is just over complicating the problem, the entire system doesn’t need to be reinvented. There are just a few specific mods that are grossly above curve.

Berserker is currently worth multiple attack speed mods in one. A much easier solution would be to reduce it from 30% per stack to 25% or 20%
It’ll still be a high value mod, still worth using, just not quite as above curve.

Next up is blood rush, which like berserker is worth several mods in one. This mod could stand to have its gains reduced by 20-30%
 

In my eyes, these two changes would reduce the absolute peak of melee, without utterly destroying its functionality.

I just hope DE doesn’t do to them what they did to maiming strike.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Your build wouldn't change. 
What would change is how Attack Speed modifies the relative speed of your attacks. 

To make it easier to understand:
Presently, Attack Speed is Animation Speed. There is no delay whatsoever between swings. Even with slow Attack Speeds. 

What the OP refers to is something i mentioned in another thread (I'm surprised to see a whole thread dedicated to the idea tbh)

Example, Swinging with your Scindo would take 10 animation frames with a 0.5 second "cooldown" between the completion of one swing and the beginning of another. 
Adding your Berserker onto that wouldn't change the 10 frames of the swing itself but iut would reduce the cooldown before you can swing again to 0.2 at max stacks. 

However, if you added a Negative Speed Riven (Like my Shildeg), Instead of taking 3 whole seconds to do one single swing of the weapon, it would be 10 animation frames and then a cooldown of 1 ~ 2 seconds depending on how bad the Negative was. 

The major change in gameplay then, would be to allow a slow Heavy Blade build to actually launch an attack and then let you shoot while its in the 'cooldown' phase between swings. 
A high speed Heavy Blade build would take 10 animation frames to swing the blade and then swing it again 0.3~ seconds later. You'd still be swinging 3 times per second. 
However! Smaller weapons like Daggers and Swords would have much faster swing animations, making them offer a different melee experience compared to a Heavy Blade. 

I am terrible at explaining my thoughts, but i hope that clears up a bit of misunderstanding?

Good description, so to summarise if I understood it, players who stack all speed mods onto their melee weapons to swing like a frog in a blender would be hit the hardest under what we think is coming because DE will limit the number of speed attack mods that can be placed at once on a single build.

I'm sure that's what they were talking about awhile back in a stream. Oh well I'll wait and see then deal with it.

Edited by Slayer-.
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As long as some actions lock your character, of course Speed mods will be mandatory. If two-handed weapons become slow af with no way to improve that, they'll just die as being static in Warframe is very often a death sentence

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attack speed is essential on every melee build and gutting that would be quite disruptive, most affected by this nerf will be the heavy blades whose stances are atrociously slow and weapons like gram prime with 0.8 attk spd need 2 speed sources to be usable. i'm worried and anxious about these changes to say the least

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2 hours ago, Chewarette said:

As long as some actions lock your character, of course Speed mods will be mandatory. If two-handed weapons become slow af with no way to improve that, they'll just die as being static in Warframe is very often a death sentence

They're slow as hell right now because Attack Speed = Animation Speed. They need to fix that but just limiting the speed mods wont solve it. 

All they'd need to do is have a set, unchangeable animation speed, and then only modify the delay between ending an attack and starting a new one with speed mods. 

I guess we'll find out with the dev workshop next week. But I'd like to be optimistic in the meantime until the crushing disappointment sets in. 
 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

They're slow as hell right now because Attack Speed = Animation Speed. They need to fix that but just limiting the speed mods wont solve it. 

All they'd need to do is have a set, unchangeable animation speed, and then only modify the delay between ending an attack and starting a new one with speed mods. 

I guess we'll find out with the dev workshop next week. But I'd like to be optimistic in the meantime until the crushing disappointment sets in. 
 

I see, didn't watch the workshop/devstream, but I hope then they'll heavily increase the base animation speed of heavy weapons.  Even with 2 nanoseconds as "Delay", I wouldn't use the Fragor Prime if it remains as slow as it is today without all the speed mods. I guess that it needs to "feel" heavy, but at one point they should make their choice between "gameplay" and "realism".

Edited by Chewarette
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nothing is set in stone until the workshop releases.

that said, I wouldn't be against speed changes to certain weapons like Heavy Blades and Hammers, which could not only make them feel like they have real momentum, but would also provide variation between melees. to compensate for slower speed, heavier weapons could have much greater damage and crits multipliers and perhaps have better range for hitting multiple enemeis at once with wider sweeping attacks, plus a much larger slam radius, which means heavy weapons would have some good CC utility vs small groups, while other weapons like Nikanas would be better for quick slicing and dicing.

I think a cool idea would be having special attacks for each melee type which are earned through successful melee hits and kills: think Charge Blades/Switch Axes from Monster Hunter, but a little easier. those who learn their combos and get enough kills could do moves such as:

- Sparring/fists: the tenno jumps onto the target pins them to the floor and delivers many rapid strikes, dealing a very large amount of damage. to prevent being locked in this animation, you would dismount the enemy after a lethal blow, but an option to cancel the animation by rolling might also be appreciated.

- Hammers: heavy attack is now a massively powerful ground slam, same as you can do in the air, but without needing to jump: since heavy attacks work off combo multipliers, it wouldn't be as effective as you think to rapidly spam it, but a single well-timed slam could produce a large AoE to knock enemies on the floor (no ragdoll). in addition, the AoE has a guaranteed chance to proc your hammer's element within that radius.

- Nikanas/Two-Handed Nikanas: seems obvious but yes, weeb slash. the tenno dashes forward and delivers a single cut with a flashy animation that empties your entire combo multiplier into a ridiculously powerful attack. if you miss, that kinda sucks, but a successful hit would fell even the strongest opponents and seriously hurt bosses (the ones that can be damaged by melee anyway). 

these are just a few of the moves that could be done, and would give each melee class it's own true identity. 

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I still don't see problem atm with melee, but every nerf is just a reason not to use them anymore

So just make attack speed is capped at 1, damage is capped at 10k, status chance is capped at 100%, combo counter is increased by actually kills done by you, whenever you swap weapon you lose your counter, add selfstagger after evey 10 attacks, reduce dmg of slash procs by 95%, increase mod drain by double, make 1/3 of enemies immune to melee, make 1/3 of enemies reflect melee dmg to your teammates, make 1/3 of enemies absorbing melee dmg meaning the get more hp with no cap, add duration to melee which means after 100 attacks its broken can not be used anymore in mission until after mission can be repaired using 1 forma, add cooldown to melee attacks, reduce movement while melee is equipped, reduce more movement when preforming melee attacks, enemies shields gets a 100% melee dmg reduction

Once primary gets usable I get back to that

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6 minutes ago, EnwoQ said:

I still don't see problem atm with melee, but every nerf is just a reason not to use them anymore

So just make attack speed is capped at 1, damage is capped at 10k, status chance is capped at 100%, combo counter is increased by actually kills done by you, whenever you swap weapon you lose your counter, add selfstagger after evey 10 attacks, reduce dmg of slash procs by 95%, increase mod drain by double, make 1/3 of enemies immune to melee, make 1/3 of enemies reflect melee dmg to your teammates, make 1/3 of enemies absorbing melee dmg meaning the get more hp with no cap, add duration to melee which means after 100 attacks its broken can not be used anymore in mission until after mission can be repaired using 1 forma, add cooldown to melee attacks, reduce movement while melee is equipped, reduce more movement when preforming melee attacks, enemies shields gets a 100% melee dmg reduction

Once primary gets usable I get back to that

CJ1Iq.gif

I better go sell all my melee weapons now, if DE were to listen to you. :tongue: 

-------------------------------

Last time DE tinkered with melee in the past they destroyed my Zenistar even with the combo count it's useless and now covered in cobwebs it would make a good addition/prop for a haunted house now. :facepalm:

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2 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

CJ1Iq.gif

I better go sell all my melee weapons now, if DE were to listen to you. :tongue: 

-------------------------------

Last time DE tinkered with melee in the past they destroyed my Zenistar even with the combo count it's useless and now covered in cobwebs it would make a good addition/prop for a haunted house now. :facepalm:

i still use zenistar with overcompensating skin during baro visits, along with the ever so original pink grendel with eros wings

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4 hours ago, Chewarette said:

I see, didn't watch the workshop/devstream, but I hope then they'll heavily increase the base animation speed of heavy weapons.  Even with 2 nanoseconds as "Delay", I wouldn't use the Fragor Prime if it remains as slow as it is today without all the speed mods. I guess that it needs to "feel" heavy, but at one point they should make their choice between "gameplay" and "realism".

And if they want realism a slow swing speed is not the way to go for a massive warhammer, greatsword or anything else huge and heavy. The swing speed would be the same as for any other weapon due to the momentum. The heavy weight of it would impact the recovery in between swings. Right now all heavy weapons are swung in slowmo for some odd reasons but the recovery is instant. I guess no one at DE has swung a weapon, neither alone or in a practice battle.

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10 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

A fellow Tenno in this forum put a nice suggestion where instead of increasing attack speed, mods now increase animation recovery/attack delay, making weapons having their speed unchanged but still allowing you to hit enemies rapidly in somewhat humane speed

Currently, attack speed adjusts how fast the entire attack animation plays.  This change would require designating certain parts of the animation as the "delay" part and moving all of the slowdown there.

What this means is that the "delay" part of the animation is now going to take on the entire responsibility of whatever speed boosts or speed drops occur.  So you're not really preventing the scaling of animation speeds with this system, you're just changing what parts of the animation get sped up or slowed down.  And because all of the speed change is apply to a smaller part of the animation, it means that the ridiculousness of that speed change will be even more pronounced.  So you'll have a normal sword swing, and then a comically fast or slow "delay" animation.

This is the kind of system that would work well for a turn-based RPG, but won't work well in the fast-paced combat of Warframe.

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When DE decided to multiply melee base damage by a factor of 3-4x, I thought they would rework the combo counter into a debuff counter. So instead of ramping up damage, damage is top loaded. 

Old Skana

35 base damage multiplied by combo counter 

New Skana 

120 base damage, light attacks divided by combo counter, heavy attack multiplied by combo counter 

Faster weapons naturally lose damage more quickly as combo ramps up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The acolyte mods were out the charts when they got released and we are at the same point mods wise since then. The issue is not the melee mechanics, imho melee is very well tuned actually for a power fantasy game. I'm sorry to speak about SP, but in SP most melees, even well moded, are underwhelming; there are few chosen ones and for others you need frame buffs for them to feel ok, and for a majority it's no future mastery fodder land.

The issue is imho everything else, melee is imho not the elephant in the room, it is the quality of the content that is noticeably decaying over years. The proper answer to melee imho would be through newer content. Historically we had points where some weapons were out of the charts, like amprex then synoid simulor(it got nerfed) or some warframe powers basically making most content non content and all those issues have been solved most of the time by throwing content that make those obsolete for it. DE has even released boss fights with require gunning but completly different form of gunning than your average builds.

Nerfing melee(yes it is a nerf not a smart rework with new mechanics) just because it is atm strong is imho a sign that DE has no interest anymore in elevating their own title. FBM.

For the record there were meaningfull mechanics appearing within story arcs in the past. The big sentient arc started 6 years ago(july 2015), before then we had no business with this faction. Operator was a 2016 things. Right now, we are in the new war sub arc since 2018, and tbh the content around it seems milked to oblivion as well. What we still have are frames, primes and problably very soon a new open world like last year because the cost is easy to manage and people spend plat on it. Compared to older eras of the game, it's borderline pathetic :). In those circumpstances, I get why the want to abritrarily scramble the metagame, way easier than expanding on top of it.

Edited by Galuf
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Currently, attack speed adjusts how fast the entire attack animation plays.  This change would require designating certain parts of the animation as the "delay" part and moving all of the slowdown there.

What this means is that the "delay" part of the animation is now going to take on the entire responsibility of whatever speed boosts or speed drops occur.  So you're not really preventing the scaling of animation speeds with this system, you're just changing what parts of the animation get sped up or slowed down.  And because all of the speed change is apply to a smaller part of the animation, it means that the ridiculousness of that speed change will be even more pronounced.  So you'll have a normal sword swing, and then a comically fast or slow "delay" animation.

This is the kind of system that would work well for a turn-based RPG, but won't work well in the fast-paced combat of Warframe.

You're completely misunderstanding everything, lol. 

Currently, if the swing animation (The animation that plays when you press E a single time) has 20 Frames of animation from start to finish and you add 100% Attack Speed to that, its now got just 10 Frames of animation. 

At the same time, you could have an Attack Speed of 0.1 or an Attack Speed of 3, there is exactly zero microseconds of delay between the end of a swing and the beginning of a new one. 

Here, a visual guide to the problem:
0.5 Attack Speed. Note that I'm locked into place for that entire swing. 
https://gyazo.com/8de7f86aa488a9e5c1d24029c9e71898

With Warcry, it gets up to around 1.1 and looks like this:
https://gyazo.com/109704db8892220759dfd9ccf32e2c1f

What i suggest is that the base swing speed is the second clip, But it cannot be changed. After making that swing, The weapon would have a "Cooldown" before the next attack can be launched of around 0.7 seconds. 
Adding Attack Speed via Primed Fury would bring that delay down to around 0.3~. 

What this means is that a Slow weapon will strike a target and then be unable to be used again for a moment instead of what we see in the first clip, where you're trapped in a long, slow animation for 2 seconds straight. 
A High Attack Speed in the same scenario would Attack -> 0.3s delay -> Attack.
 

Edited by Reitrix
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52 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

You're completely misunderstanding everything, lol. 

Currently, if the swing animation (The animation that plays when you press E a single time) has 20 Frames of animation from start to finish and you add 100% Attack Speed to that, its now got just 10 Frames of animation. 

At the same time, you could have an Attack Speed of 0.1 or an Attack Speed of 3, there is exactly zero microseconds of delay between the end of a swing and the beginning of a new one. 

Here, a visual guide to the problem:
0.5 Attack Speed. Note that I'm locked into place for that entire swing. 
https://gyazo.com/8de7f86aa488a9e5c1d24029c9e71898

With Warcry, it gets up to around 1.1 and looks like this:
https://gyazo.com/109704db8892220759dfd9ccf32e2c1f

What i suggest is that the base swing speed is the second clip, But it cannot be changed. After making that swing, The weapon would have a "Cooldown" before the next attack can be launched of around 0.7 seconds. 
Adding Attack Speed via Primed Fury would bring that delay down to around 0.3~. 

What this means is that a Slow weapon will strike a target and then be unable to be used again for a moment instead of what we see in the first clip, where you're trapped in a long, slow animation for 2 seconds straight. 
A High Attack Speed in the same scenario would Attack -> 0.3s delay -> Attack.
 

I'm unfamiliar with the site you linked to so for the sake of safety I didn't click through, but if I understand your words: the attack animation is not being modified at all, you are instead introducing a cooldown before the next attack can occur. So the animation finishes, and then for whatever this cooldown period is (which depends on the stats you're talking about) I won't be able to do the next attack until that cooldown has elapsed.  Correct?

If so, this is what I'm talking about when I said that this kind of system works well for turn-based RPG's, but not real-time combat.  This system introduces periods of time when the player isn't allowed to attack; during these times, their attack input does nothing.  It feels bad, your character is standing there doing nothing when it feels like there's no reason they shouldn't be attacking.  It's very RPG, and not very action.

I think we understand each other now, but if I'm still misunderstanding your idea, please let me know.

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22 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I'm unfamiliar with the site you linked to so for the sake of safety I didn't click through, but if I understand your words: the attack animation is not being modified at all, you are instead introducing a cooldown before the next attack can occur. So the animation finishes, and then for whatever this cooldown period is (which depends on the stats you're talking about) I won't be able to do the next attack until that cooldown has elapsed.  Correct?

If so, this is what I'm talking about when I said that this kind of system works well for turn-based RPG's, but not real-time combat.  This system introduces periods of time when the player isn't allowed to attack; during these times, their attack input does nothing.  It feels bad, your character is standing there doing nothing when it feels like there's no reason they shouldn't be attacking.  It's very RPG, and not very action.

I think we understand each other now, but if I'm still misunderstanding your idea, please let me know.

Its not a total lockout (Swing once, literally stand around like a doofus waiting to be able to do anything), With a slow speed, you would hit E to do a melee swing, then immediately start blasting with your guns and then hit E again to melee again once the cooldown period is up. 

As it stands right now, as i showed in the clips with slow attack speed you ARE standing around like a doofus for 2 full seconds doing absolutely nothing of value locked in place while slooooooooowly swinging the weapon. You cant move, shoot or cast abilities. You're just stuck. 

Under my suggestion, You'd swing the blade at a normal speed, then be able to do whatever you wanted while waiting for the delay to run its timer. It brings viability to slow attack speed weapons instead of absolutely requiring multiple Speed mods to be any kind of usable. 

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13 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

With a slow speed, you would hit E to do a melee swing, then immediately start blasting with your guns and then hit E again to melee again once the cooldown period is up. 

I'm guessing you like the sound of this, but do you really think this is what Warframe players want?  To me this sounds awful.  Suddenly my melee attack is going to feel less like a core part of my arsenal and more like a special attack from Diablo.

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Are you ****? Attack delay? This can be done by individual players to delay their melee attacks if they want to delay their melees or just not use their melees if they prefer other ways of attack. Why try to force this on all other players and especially players who like to use melee? it's a PvE game, not PvP. 

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