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Like a fellow Tenno said, no more melee attack speed, now it's attack delay/interval


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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

CJ1Iq.gif

I better go sell all my melee weapons now, if DE were to listen to you. :tongue: 

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Last time DE tinkered with melee in the past they destroyed my Zenistar even with the combo count it's useless and now covered in cobwebs it would make a good addition/prop for a haunted house now. :facepalm:

Agree with you 100%. Zenistar used to be great and has its unique signature mechanics that's easy to use and powerful. Now just a meme weapon with clunky disc. One by one, these interesting features of melee weaopns got destroyed for the sake of "balancing" and replacing with a bunch of all similar weapons with clunky and slow attacks.

Now a lot of players are liquidating their powerful melee Rivens in anticipating the incoming melee destruction. These nerfing ideas are borderline *****.  I really wonder if some competition games employing some special and secret teams and spy players to join and propose these game killing ideas in Warframe.

It is as if they do really know what makes Warframe fun and engaging and asking DE to delete or nerf them one by one over the years since 2017 when the players number peaked and threatened those AAA title games. After those nerfing rounds, Warframe players dropped tremendously and stopped growing for at least 3 years. Now some new players are joining and we are seeing more nerfing proposals??? What's going on???

Edited by George_PPS
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1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

Here, a visual guide to the problem:
0.5 Attack Speed. Note that I'm locked into place for that entire swing. 
https://gyazo.com/8de7f86aa488a9e5c1d24029c9e71898

With Warcry, it gets up to around 1.1 and looks like this:
https://gyazo.com/109704db8892220759dfd9ccf32e2c1f

Are you using a -attack speed riven to demonstrate? If you're using a melee weapon with .5 attack speed it should suck. 

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1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

Are you using a -attack speed riven to demonstrate? If you're using a melee weapon with .5 attack speed it should suck. 

thats the hammers unmodded speed, most are really that slow

the issue is getting locked in animations, the suggestion is to literally double the speed of melee then put a attack  delay (cooldown ater the swing) that u can still move around and shoot ur guns

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1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

Are you using a -attack speed riven to demonstrate? If you're using a melee weapon with .5 attack speed it should suck. 

Negative riven specifically to demonstrate why Attack Speed = Animation Speed is a problem. 
Attack Speed should be like Fire Rate, a choice. Right now it's absolutely mandatory to make the weapon usable. 

For comparison, I have a Catchmoon secondary with a Fire Rate of 0.7. It doesn't take 2 seconds to fire that one shot like the Shildeg does. 
The way i use it generally is in melee, taking a heavy shot with it and then using melee between shots. 

Low Fire Rate guns are perfectly viable. 
Low speed melee is a death sentence. 

Low speed melee should be a gameplay choice, much like low fire rate guns are a choice. It should be viable but in your own words, it sucks. 

That's the dynamic i'd like to see changed. All we know right now is from the devstream where they specifically stated they didn't like how Attack Speed stacking worked on melee.
The solution they suggested at the time was to limit Attack Speed mods to just 1. 

Remains to be seen how they plan to go about it. All we can do as a community is offer our own thoughts. Like it, or dont. The feedback is important either way. 

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6 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Negative riven specifically to demonstrate why Attack Speed = Animation Speed is a problem. 
Attack Speed should be like Fire Rate, a choice. Right now it's absolutely mandatory to make the weapon usable. 

There are all types of ranged weapons, we have burst, semi auto. full auto, sniper, beam and and launchers while all melee essentially function the exact same way. Having slower fire rate on ranged can work if you are using the right type of ranged weapon but fire rate mods on certain weapon types is essentially mandatory. You probably don't want to mod a sniper for fire rate because the recoil would get unruly, the same you're not going to mod a full auto weapon with -fire rate because you are purposely gimping yourself. 

Since all melee essentially functions the same I see no problem "needing" to slot one attack speed mod. 

33 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Low speed melee should be a gameplay choice, much like low fire rate guns are a choice. It should be viable but in your own words, it sucks.  

If we had multiple types of melee weapons that all functioned differently like we do with ranged, a low speed melee weapon might be a viable option. 

That's just not how melee works though, adding a cooldown to melee would feel terrible to play, just like running a slow attack speed melee feels terrible to play now. 

41 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Remains to be seen how they plan to go about it. All we can do as a community is offer our own thoughts. Like it, or dont. The feedback is important either way. 

We are all entitled to our opinion, and it's a good thing to voice that opinion. I just think this is possibly one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. The day DE implements a cooldown on melee is the last day I ever log in. The game would be the fast paced game I enjoy. It won't be the first time I quit a game because the developers messed around with a cooldown mechanic.

They might as well add an overheating mechanic to ranged weapons. Add some cooldowns to everything for balance and fun.

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20 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

instead of increasing attack speed, mods now increase animation recovery/attack delay, making weapons having their speed unchanged but still allowing you to hit enemies rapidly in somewhat humane speed

Let's say heavy blade

- Attack speed : 0.9

- Attack delay : 0.5 second (recovery : 1)

so with new mods, instead of increasing attack speed (30%) to 1.2, attack delay is reduced to 0.38 second, making you able to swing it faster but still having the heavy feeling of the weapon, not a giant blender blade spinning like mad anymore

What do you think? Worth trying as a feedback?

Congratulations, you just won an award for worst take I've ever seen on these forums. 🏆

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19 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

That would essentially remove standard melee attacks from the game. Melee would now be heavy attacks and heavy attacks that don't have heavy attack modifiers. If the goal is to make me quit the game you're on the right track. 

Kind of my gut reaction.  Guns less fun than fun melee?  Let’s balance by making melee less fun!

Nikanas would be the hardest hit at first…

What we need is game engine improvements for faster, more dynamic enemies, yes?

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

thats the hammers unmodded speed, most are really that slow

the issue is getting locked in animations, the suggestion is to literally double the speed of melee then put a attack  delay (cooldown ater the swing) that u can still move around and shoot ur guns

No it's not, the slowest melee weapons in the game are Karyst Prime, Pathocyst, Plasma Sword and Sheeve with an attack speed of .667, The slowest hammer is Arca Titron at .733. 

I understand what they are trying to do, give slow weapons a fast attack and no locked animation due to incredibly slow attack speed but, if you just build your melee with berserk or any other attack speed mod the attacks are so fast it's unnoticeable in most situations. The proposed change would only really help stupid slow weapons and hurt everything else. It's up near the top of the list as one of the worst ideas I've seen here.

If there was a cooldown after every melee attack I'd quit. What's the point of having stances with combos when you can't actually combo because you have to wait to attack again. It would break the fluid movement that melee provides. The mobility we have with parkour and melee is what makes the game fun for me. It's why I can keep playing after 4k+ hours, the game is still fun to play even though there is no real endgame and there is nothing that I really have to do. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

Kind of my gut reaction.  Guns less fun than fun melee?  Let’s balance by making melee less fun!

Nikanas would be the hardest hit at first…

What we need is game engine improvements for faster, more dynamic enemies, yes?

I play WF because it can be played at stupid fast speeds. It's fun to spaz out killing a bunch of enemies as fast as I can. 

I've always wanted more engaging enemies. I like the idea of making eximus spawn with a whole unit of jacked up minions, kind of like the unique/super unique enemies in Diablo 2. They could have multiple modifiers of buffs for their squad and defuffs vs tenno so if you get the wrong combo you're in for a real fight. It would break up the monotony of slogging through endless waves of the exact same enemies that pose little to no threat. I guess this is really a discussion for another topic, I'm getting distracted.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

No it's not, the slowest melee weapons in the game are Karyst Prime, Pathocyst, Plasma Sword and Sheeve with an attack speed of .667, The slowest hammer is Arca Titron at .733. 

I understand what they are trying to do, give slow weapons a fast attack and no locked animation due to incredibly slow attack speed but, if you just build your melee with berserk or any other attack speed mod the attacks are so fast it's unnoticeable in most situations. The proposed change would only really help stupid slow weapons and hurt everything else. It's up near the top of the list as one of the worst ideas I've seen here.

If there was a cooldown after every melee attack I'd quit. What's the point of having stances with combos when you can't actually combo because you have to wait to attack again. It would break the fluid movement that melee provides. The mobility we have with parkour and melee is what makes the game fun for me. It's why I can keep playing after 4k+ hours, the game is still fun to play even though there is no real endgame and there is nothing that I really have to do. 

I play WF because it can be played at stupid fast speeds. It's fun to spaz out killing a bunch of enemies as fast as I can. 

I've always wanted more engaging enemies. I like the idea of making eximus spawn with a whole unit of jacked up minions, kind of like the unique/super unique enemies in Diablo 2. They could have multiple modifiers of buffs for their squad and defuffs vs tenno so if you get the wrong combo you're in for a real fight. It would break up the monotony of slogging through endless waves of the exact same enemies that pose little to no threat. I guess this is really a discussion for another topic, I'm getting distracted.

Off topic?  Not really.  Slowing Melee down is really about matching the speed of the horde-based mechanics more than matching the “weaknesses” of primaries/secondaries when you look at the big picture.

Melee is so successful because it matches Warframe speed, agility, and ability…synergy, AND it is varied in style, speed, and scope with ranges, stances, heavy attacks, and finishers.
 

Making the strongest link in the chain weaker doesn’t strengthen the chain, it just makes the weaker links stand out less but only initially.

Edited by (PSN)Silverback73
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2 hours ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

Off topic?  Not really.  Slowing Melee down is really about matching the speed of the horde-based mechanics more than matching the “weaknesses” of primaries/secondaries when you look at the big picture.

Melee is so successful because it matches Warframe speed, agility, and ability…synergy, AND it is varied in style, speed, and scope with ranges, stances, heavy attacks, and finishers.
 

Making the strongest link in the chain weaker doesn’t strengthen the chain, it just makes the weaker links stand out less but only initially.

"Making the strongest link in the chain weaker doesn’t strengthen the chain, it just makes the weaker links stand out less but only initially."
Extremely well said! For some reason, some one or some people in DE keep deleting and canceling the best elements and mechanics of weapons in Warframe. Everything is becoming more and more sluggish or stuttering over time since 2017. When can this trend stop??? We should keep the strong ones, the interesting mechanics, the best damaging weapons, and the buff the weak ones, not the other way around! 

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21 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

i still use zenistar with overcompensating skin during baro visits, along with the ever so original pink grendel with eros wings

Awesome, I bet you use all the different colours from the Cherub Palatte to stand out. :tongue:

13 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Are you ****? Attack delay? This can be done by individual players to delay their melee attacks if they want to delay their melees or just not use their melees if they prefer other ways of attack. Why try to force this on all other players and especially players who like to use melee? it's a PvE game, not PvP. 

I really like melee, when I'm not in a lazy mood just blowing things up with my big gun.

13 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Agree with you 100%. Zenistar used to be great and has its unique signature mechanics that's easy to use and powerful. Now just a meme weapon with clunky disc. One by one, these interesting features of melee weaopns got destroyed for the sake of "balancing" and replacing with a bunch of all similar weapons with clunky and slow attacks.

Now a lot of players are liquidating their powerful melee Rivens in anticipating the incoming melee destruction. These nerfing ideas are borderline *****.  I really wonder if some competition games employing some special and secret teams and spy players to join and propose these game killing ideas in Warframe.

It is as if they do really know what makes Warframe fun and engaging and asking DE to delete or nerf them one by one over the years since 2017 when the players number peaked and threatened those AAA title games. After those nerfing rounds, Warframe players dropped tremendously and stopped growing for at least 3 years. Now some new players are joining and we are seeing more nerfing proposals??? What's going on???

Yeah mine used to be a powerhouse built for speed range and damage, but the damage and combo crap needed now has taken away from what it once was a great weapon with great CC and damage to boot, was also great stop gap protector to cover your back when needed.

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On 2021-06-08 at 9:33 AM, Berzerkules said:

 

Maybe not cool down, but recovery time where your input is accepted as another swing. Currently heavy melee like fragor has its swing animation going all the way back before you swing it again. I'm trying to change that so you can swing it earlier instead of swinging it after it reached all the way. Maybe a different animation when you time your swing well to make it more fluid.

Of course we're increasing the base speed so it's not too slow considering we're not changing attack speed anymore

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I'm constantly amazed by how keen some players are to see sweeping nerfs introduced.   Baffles me, especially in this game which is almost exclusively pve only and depends in large part on how fast you can kill large numbers of trash enemies.

You don't need to nerf melee to make guns good (let's ignore the fact that, actually, lots of guns are already pretty darned good), you just need to make guns better.   Raise the bar, not lower it.

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22 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

I'm constantly amazed by how keen some players are to see sweeping nerfs introduced.   Baffles me, especially in this game which is almost exclusively pve only and depends in large part on how fast you can kill large numbers of trash enemies.

You don't need to nerf melee to make guns good (let's ignore the fact that, actually, lots of guns are already pretty darned good), you just need to make guns better.   Raise the bar, not lower it.

The bars have to be low enough so that DE can't justify invincibility phases, DPS based damage reduction and arbitrary status immunity anymore. 

The game needs to cut down on multipliers on both sides.

Stuff like having to multiply our damage by 20x to break even with an armored enemy with 20x ehp due to armor is something that hasn't added anything meaningful to gameplay.

Bypass armor.

DPS based DR punishes fire rate, but not Crit.

Radiation on status immune bosses or go home.

Buffing things to raise the bar is nothing more than moving goal posts.

DE will introduce Titanium Path after power creep makes Steel Path too easy.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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In order to make any change in game first you gotta set a goal to yourself. Otherwise you will aim at something blindfolded and everything will be pointless on th end. Goal need to be measurable and expressed in numbers, in example: "we want guns to deal 80% of melee DPS".

Now with such measured goal you can start working to achieve it. Currently, as I know, DE doesnt have clear statement to what they aim for.

If i was developer, I would focus more to make the weapons cooler, adding to every weapon (including melee) secondary fire/attack modes and even abilities. Current weapons sems shallow to me. We have tons of guns that basicaly do pew pew pew at different interveals.  Where only handfull of them have some unique mechanics. I would prefer that each weapon had stuff like zenistar or zenith.

Thus I would remove the charge attacks from melee and introduce unique feature for every weapon. This way you can make lot of weapons usefull for some frames or builds, where normaly they are useless or weak.

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6 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

invincibility phases, DPS based damage reduction and arbitrary status immunity

Name a looter shooter that doesn't use these, or similar, mechanics.   There's not a lot devs can do to make their bosses actually tanky given how awesome players are at finding ways to kill said bosses.   And there are precious few actual "bosses" in warframe.  Eidolons, profit taker, I'm struggling beyond that.  Liches aren't bosses.  Planetary bosses are typically only challenging the first time through the star chart, and even then aren't exactly difficult.

Warframe isn't a game about killing bosses though, its a game about shredding mobs of trash using whatever method you personally find the most fun at that time.   The majority of players don't play warframe for a challenge, they play it because they can build weapons and warframes that absolutely destroy the enemies and allow them to feel like gods and relax at the same time.

 

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