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Harrow Systems aren't so bad anymore.

Get two wisp and Nidus that put everything in power strength, distrubute your Speed Motes evenly to avoid recasting them.

Be the Portal Nova, if you're good at it, it's fun to quickly position yourself and cast portals to remove a good chunck of time the clemmings need, more effective on maps with multiple straight hallways.

 

Even without Portals, you will hit C rotations much faster than you do on Railjack def, the chance to get the drop you want is higher AND you only need a single defection drop as opposed to needing three different defense drops (4 if you want to craft smoking body).

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2 hours ago, nslay said:

I mean... if you like Railjack Defense, this philosophy works. Problem is that a lot of people don't like this boring game mode... especially not on Corpus Ship tileset.

 

1 hour ago, 16Bitman said:

This only applies to a few Warframes, absolutely not to Ash at this time.

The Ash Neuroptics defense mission (Arva Vector - Neptune Proxima) and the Ash Systems defense mission (Falling Glory - Venus Proxima), do not drop anything worth farming. The ship components are not MK3, so just a temporary holdover gear no maxed out ship wants to use, relics can be earned in a minute on Void Capture instead.

DE recently added the Nautilus parts to Arva Vector, but you're better off farming it in the additional objective during Void Storms, the game will shower you in a ton of rewards on each completion, while reaching wave 20 on defense will give you a pittance of rewards.

With the poor enemy spawn rate and incredibly large mission area, this mission even fails to be a good spot to farm Intrinsics or Necramech affinity.

Some Assassination locked Warframes still have a chance to show up on Kuva Siphon or Steel Path Incursion nodes, so you can obtain them "passively" over a long period of time, but this does absolutely no apply to Ash.

 

Ash has to be 100% farmed for.

I'm sorry I'll take my post back.

I didn't farmed for ash. I just look at my foundry one day and all of his parts was there. Which made me the least competent person to talk about his farm.

I must be extremely lucky, which I'm sure won't be the case for many other people. So yeah thanks for the heads up you two, and take that post of mine with a grain of salt.

But i still stand with my previous advice: if you need khora, don't just go to s.o and relentlessly do areas after areas after areas and got burned out. Probably rank up some frames or weapons while you're there. If you're multitasking, even if you don't get one stuff, at the very least you're progressing with the other stuff.

Edited by Soy77
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2 hours ago, Soy77 said:

 

I'm sorry I'll take my post back.

I didn't farmed for ash. I just look at my foundry one day and all of his parts was there. Which made me the least competent person to talk about his farm.

I must be extremely lucky, which I'm sure won't be the case for many other people. So yeah thanks for the heads up you two, and take that post of mine with a grain of salt.

But i still stand with my previous advice: if you need khora, don't just go to s.o and relentlessly do areas after areas after areas and got burned out. Probably rank up some frames or weapons while you're there. If you're multitasking, even if you don't get one stuff, at the very least you're progressing with the other stuff.

I farmed Harrow which is how I got Ash. This seems like a fair trade off given how horrible Harrow is to farm.

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I still don't understand why the DE put oberon and ash on railjack missions. It doesn't make sense and it seems that DE's decisions are not reviewed by the team. It seems that every person within DE makes small parts but the whole is not seen from a sober or common sense perspective. If it's to force players to play this railjack corpus update it was a very wrong move because the railjack corpus update was one of the worst things ever done by DE. I even thought it was cowardly with the new players...DE said it would be a friendlier railjack and so it was just the opposite. When update came out they would "refund" players who invested in railjack but in reality we had to spend more endo and credits than before! I'll sum up my opinion in one sentence about railjack corpus: a tragedy.

Edited by Vaml77
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Ash I can see as being a bit of a blunder, devs trying to do something about his grind and messing up.

What the frell was the thinking behind Oberon though? He was just fine coming from Eximus drops. They've just moved what is probably most new players first utility/healer frame option from being an early game encounter to something much late game, by then having access to Trinity et al 🤪🤪

Edited by Butterfly85
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24 minutes ago, Butterfly85 said:

Ash I can see as being a bit of a blunder, devs trying to do something about his grind and messing up.

What the frell was the thinking behind Oberon though? He was just fine coming from Eximus drops. They've just moved what is probably most new players first utility/healer frame option from being an early game encounter to something much late game, by then having access to Trinity et al 🤪🤪

Eh, from what I've seen from the useage stats they have showed us, despite his ridiculously easy to getness, he just wasn't being used very much. 

So, I agree they made a mistake, in that now he will be used even less, but I'm not even sure it matters until they fix the problems with the game that make no one feel like slotting frames like Oberon, or even Trin anymore (at least not for "healing" anways). 

And I put healing in air quotes, because with how damage works in this game, healing has always been pretty niche and mostly useless, at least without damage reduction coming along with it. We just don't have the kind of bigger health pools you have in say MMO's, where pure healing is really that helpful most of the time. 

But even healing with damage reduction it has limited uses, at least with the current state of the game, where do you really need it that much? RAID's were thrown in the trash can (although rumor has it the third orb will be raid-like at least), and most content just doesn't need it. And now with shield gating, a group of players or someone solo can min max and use decaying dragon keys and their operator to be invincible constantly, and have no need for damage reduction at all. And honestly with Arcane Energize and Zenurik, Trin is hardly relevant anymore either. 

And even a well built Oberon or Trin can hardly compete now with a Vazarin Dash operator or a Harrow in a situation where you really want to prevent damage to allies, like magnetic procs from eidolons, because they can provide actual invulnerability and not just damage reduction. The current meta has sadly made Oberon, and Trin mostly irrelevant. 

Edit: Like, for example, with a Vazarin Dash operator, if you time it right, you could keep something like a sortie operative invulnerable the entire game, without a single moment of break. Why even bother slotting a frame for damage reduction and healing when operator xp is super easy to get and Vazarin healing is op af? 

Also, as to the topic, I just wanna say, as an Ash main, I'm not saying the grind isn't a little bit over the top, but there are a lot of over the top grinds in WF. And Ash should not be easy for newer players to get their hands on. He will teach them all the wrong things. It's like getting Mesa too easily. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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This game is heavily infected with Rng. A friends of mine got Valkyr under 4 run but took her 78 run for Rhino then she decided to stop farming him. This many runs all spent for the system but drop nothing except chassis and neuroptics. 

I can imagine how Ash farm is then. I still not understand why Ash and Oberon put into this gamemode. Looking at their price tag seems reasonably.

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As for many things in the game, you are not supposed to powerfarm him for a week straight.

You are supposed to get him passively, over time, as you do random missions here and there.

I'd agree that putting him on C rotation is a bit too harsh maybe, but it's not too bad.

For example, if you're doing it the smart way, you would not spend hundreds of hours on hydron (as so many do) to farm nothing but mr. No, you could instead spend all those hours in rj defence, gaining slightly less mr, but also grinding ash, intrinsics and other rj rewards.

But most people (it seems) can only ever think of doing one thing at a time, resulting in a dramatically suboptimal use of their time, only to then complain that stuff takes too long to do...

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2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

You are supposed to get him passively, over time, as you do random missions here and there.

Question.

Why would anyone be randomly doing Railjack Defense?

Due to the nature of how it functions it is quite truly worse than every other defense mission for both gameplay and rewards, other than Ash there's no reason to even go to the missions in the first place because all it will likely do is give random relics and (in most proxima) mediocre Railjack parts.

The needlessly large tileset compounded with the lower and slower enemy spawn rates due to being tied to Railjack make it slower and less rewarding than most other Tier 2 or higher defense missions, which also can be completed faster due to not being on a needlessly big defense map.

Railjack Defense missions aren't even a good place for relic cracking so not even that saves the whole "passively over time" thing.

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Its pure rng, protea took me like 12 hours.. i almost bought it in market. Cold ephemera from exploiter took me 75 runs i have like 45 hildryn sets. Ah a quick reminder you maybe want 2 sets of each warframe (helminth)

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il y a 18 minutes, Aldain a dit :

Question.

Why would anyone be randomly doing Railjack Defense?

Due to the nature of how it functions it is quite truly worse than every other defense mission for both gameplay and rewards, other than Ash there's no reason to even go to the missions in the first place because all it will likely do is give random relics and (in most proxima) mediocre Railjack parts.

The needlessly large tileset compounded with the lower and slower enemy spawn rates due to being tied to Railjack make it slower and less rewarding than most other Tier 2 or higher defense missions, which also can be completed faster due to not being on a needlessly big defense map.

Railjack Defense missions aren't even a good place for relic cracking so not even that saves the whole "passively over time" thing.

Why ? To get Ash, it's pretty simple.

The mindset is "oh, I wanna grind mr a bit today. Well then instead of going to hydron, I'll go to RJ and multitask the ash grind at the cost of a bit less xp", I don't get what there is to not understand.

I know people dislike this map because it takes a tiny bit more effort to clear waves, but just take a frame that can clear through walls and it's fine.

You could spend 100 hours on hydron farming nothing but mr, then go 50 hours on RJ to grind nothing but ash, or you could go 110 hours on RJ to grind both at once, overall taking less time. (Math is obviously not right, just to demonstrate the logic, you'd take more time grinding the same amount of mr, but overall less to get both mr and ash, and THAT is why you'd go there)

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Danielw8 said:

Its pure rng, protea took me like 12 hours.. 

you didn't watch the video, this is longer with the best rng(mission time, so even more) - so it can be infinitely more with the worse rng 
 

5 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

...

The passive thing is getting it like it was before - I have about 30 sets of ash from doing kuva survivals, not because I wanted to get ash but because I wanted kuva.
Now you have to make yourself get arguably the worse defence map in the game on purpose(because the other options are way better at least for now).
So in the end its not passively, while playing the game like a lot of different things - you have to force yourself to do it. 

Edited by vegetosayajin
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37 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

The mindset is "oh, I wanna grind mr a bit today. Well then instead of going to hydron, I'll go to RJ and multitask the ash grind at the cost of a bit less xp", I don't get what there is to not understand.

What if you aren't currently grinding MR?

Any other reason to go there other than a slightly slower MR grind and/or Ash?

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il y a 18 minutes, Aldain a dit :

What if you aren't currently grinding MR?

Any other reason to go there other than a slightly slower MR grind and/or Ash?

Yo, this thread is about the ash grind, stop acting as if I said that RJ defense is the best defense of the game, I'm just giving ways of making the time spent grinding ash more worthwhile.

If you're mr30, full intrinsics and only need a spare ash for helminth, then you can only bite the bullet and do nothing but this grind. But no matter what it is, you won't be able to multitask for the very last item of your todo list, it's not really a counter argument.

If you already have ash, then no you better not go to this defense, it'd be suboptimal and I never claimed otherwise.

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il y a une heure, vegetosayajin a dit :

you didn't watch the video, this is longer with the best rng(mission time, so even more) - so it can be infinitely more with the worse rng 
 

The passive thing is getting it like it was before - I have about 30 sets of ash from doing kuva survivals, not because I wanted to get ash but because I wanted kuva.
Now you have to make yourself get arguably the worse defence map in the game on purpose(because the other options are way better at least for now).
So in the end its not passively, while playing the game like a lot of different things - you have to force yourself to do it. 

The point is to jam as many different things during this grind, so however many hours spent there are not solely toward getting ash, you know, multitasking.

Check my answers to Aldain for the long version

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20小时前 , nslay 说:

Harrow Systems is worse.

Okay, shall we do some math?

It takes roughly 15 mins (for 2 people) for a rotation C in defection. Its chance is like 11%. So its expected value is like 9-10 C rotations, which is like 135 mins (2.25 hrs).

It takes like 20 mins for a rotation C in defense, especially in corpus ship tileset. Its chance is like 10%, and its expected value is 10 runs, which is 200 mins. And on top of that, each parts are different grinds so you may want to have the time tripled.

Of course, harrow neuroptics is quite annoying to farm as well, but at least its also like 11% and its from kuva spy, which takes wayyyyyyy less than 15 mins for one run.

And here I am not saying that harrow systems farm is acceptable, in fact we have been saying khora and harrow farms are cancerous for years, but now they changed the ash farm from guaranteed drop from manics to stupid pointless corpus ship C rotation defense, making it more cancerous.

I get why people dont like farming harrow systems though, a lot of people I know hates defection with a burning passion, and me too :)

 

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21 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

Imagine the internal pain someone must feel when they spend 14+ hours farming Ash of all things, only to then realize how pathetic he is.

[scratches off "inability to distinguish between a Warframe's capabilities and their own personal preference " on my forum thread bingo card]

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1 hour ago, ghoti0315 said:

Okay, shall we do some math?

It takes roughly 15 mins (for 2 people) for a rotation C in defection. Its chance is like 11%. So its expected value is like 9-10 C rotations, which is like 135 mins (2.25 hrs).

It takes like 20 mins for a rotation C in defense, especially in corpus ship tileset. Its chance is like 10%, and its expected value is 10 runs, which is 200 mins. And on top of that, each parts are different grinds so you may want to have the time tripled.

Of course, harrow neuroptics is quite annoying to farm as well, but at least its also like 11% and its from kuva spy, which takes wayyyyyyy less than 15 mins for one run.

And here I am not saying that harrow systems farm is acceptable, in fact we have been saying khora and harrow farms are cancerous for years, but now they changed the ash farm from guaranteed drop from manics to stupid pointless corpus ship C rotation defense, making it more cancerous.

I get why people dont like farming harrow systems though, a lot of people I know hates defection with a burning passion, and me too :)

 

I like that (for 2 people)! You gotta stretch it to defend DE! You're still wrong. Defection is way worse than any Defense mission.

Harrow Neuroptics and similar doesn't belong in this discussion. The speed of the mission depends on your skill and setup. That is not true for Defection or specifically Corpus Ship Defense... skill and setup make little difference.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

[scratches off "inability to distinguish between a Warframe's capabilities and their own personal preference " on my forum thread bingo card]

[scratches off "dead bingo card joke" and "you're wrong by default because I disagree" on forum thread bingo card]

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15 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

you didn't watch the video, this is longer with the best rng(mission time, so even more) - so it can be infinitely more with the worse rng 
 

The passive thing is getting it like it was before - I have about 30 sets of ash from doing kuva survivals, not because I wanted to get ash but because I wanted kuva.
Now you have to make yourself get arguably the worse defence map in the game on purpose(because the other options are way better at least for now).
So in the end its not passively, while playing the game like a lot of different things - you have to force yourself to do it. 

no didnt because i have 44 ash sets, and i can understeand frustation from rng, but like i said is just bad rng. I gave you 2 other examples about very long time to get x item

I saw people some years ago, doing 100 or 200 runs for nidus, and they didnt get it, my best advice i can give to everyone who still need grind something in warframe, split your grind, dont repeat the same mission for the next 4 hours because you will explode

mix your content, optimize your gear, optimize your timing, and this is actually why the game have metas, its true the game is for chilling, easy game, but when you aim for something with very low chance to get it, and runs are long, your chilling wukong with kuva bramma doesnt work well there, you are pretty much forced to swap your gear and aim something else you never use because again, you need optimize your time

And even with this, still long ..

Edited by Danielw8
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7 minutes ago, Danielw8 said:

no didnt because i have 44 ash sets, and i can understeand frustation from rng, but like i said is just bad rng. I gave you 2 other examples about very long time to get x item

I saw people some years ago, doing 100 or 200 runs for nidus, and they didnt get it, my best advice i can give to everyone who still need grind something in warframe, split your grind, dont repeat the same mission for the next 4 hours because you will explode

mix your content, optimize your gear, optimize your timing, and this is actually why the game have metas, its true the game is for chilling, easy game, but when you aim for something with very low chance to get it, and runs are long, your chilling wukong with kuva bramma doesnt work well there, you are pretty much forced to swap your gear and aim something else you never use because again, you need optimize your time

And even with this, still long ..

I gave up on the OP early on. 

Not only is he using a video instead of his own original thoughts (red flag #1), but even bigger red flag #2, was when I pointed out especially when you consider nested grinds, a lot of frames are far worse he just casually dismissed my point with "that's not in consideration", so it became obvious to me he is just here to rant, and has not interest in a productive discussion. He wants us to watch the video he watched, and parrot his belief that it is 100% factual and objectively right. He isn't interested in discussion. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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19小时前 , nslay 说:

I like that (for 2 people)! You gotta stretch it to defend DE! You're still wrong. Defection is way worse than any Defense mission.

Your claim here is straight up false. I said that defection (and also khora but it doesnt really belongs here) is still cancerous, but time needed for harrow systems is definitely less than C rotation corpus defense, and given that you need to do the defense missions for 3 ****ing times.

At least for me it takes roughly 3 mins for a rotation in defection but a lot more than 3 mins for a rotation in corpus ship defense (and railjack objectives that takes you like 1-2 more mins). Don't really know for the other guy though.

"Defection is way worse than any defense mission", sure it is, and I said that I hate it with a burning passion, but it is not like it would take you 20 mins for a single C rotation.

21小时前 , ghoti0315 说:

I am not saying that harrow systems farm is acceptable, in fact we have been saying khora and harrow farms are cancerous for years

read this and tell me I am defending DE or not lol

Edited by ghoti0315
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7小时前 , Tesseract7777 说:

I gave up on the OP early on. 

Not only is he using a video instead of his own original thoughts (red flag #1), but even bigger red flag #2, was when I pointed out especially when you consider nested grinds, a lot of frames are far worse he just casually dismissed my point with "that's not in consideration", so it became obvious to me he is just here to rant, and has not interest in a productive discussion. He wants us to watch the video he watched, and parrot his belief that it is 100% factual and objectively right. He isn't interested in discussion. 

I mean, what he said is not wrong though. Ash may be the frame with the worst RNG now (or at least top 3)

I saw what you said earlier and you are right too, if you take things like open world syndicates into consideration then maybe you need more time for gauss, baruuk or hildryn. However the point you made has an obvious flaw - you aren't farming fortuna or cetus standing for JUST these 3 frames, right? There are a lot of contents like profit taker, eidolon hunts or weapons like the battacor, kitguns and zaws requires open world stuff as well.

Open world stuff are something that you will be working on eventually, or as a by-product when you want to "complete the game" or something. Sure, some frames are worse if you are starting from scratch, but this game has a lot of contents that make you go to open worlds, grind a lot of stuff that you won't use for now, and have syndicates leveled up. So they may not be as bad as you think it is.

At least you won't be doing C rotation defense missions when you are free, right?

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