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ReLLiKMaster

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Alright ima just throw this out in the room:
The fundamental problem of Primaries to melees is that they are not only doing less damage but they also don't hit multiple enemies in most cases, that's why Primaries such as Bramma, Cedo and guns that HAVE AOE are statistically better than Rifles without any AOE because they can hit multiple enemies and do more group damage.
I suggest introducing a mod that adds (or alteast has a chance of adding) and AOE explosion, that doesn't add blast and has a capped damage but rather scales with your damage and effects.

[For example purposes: "Explosive Cap": +140% dmg; 70%-100% chance of exploding on impact; You can't have Serration and this mod in at the same time to balance it out]

This would not only improve Rifles holding a candle to melee's but it would also open a door to a TON of synergies

And yeh that's pretty much it, thanks for listening to my TedTalk 

 

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Nope, this is really bad. Its poorly thought out, especially considdering there are alot of AoE primarys with high damage.

What primarys need is more damage against single targets, while allowing melee to be the go to for crowd damage. This stops one from being better than the other and puts them both in seperate spaces.

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23 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Nope, this is really bad. Its poorly thought out, especially considdering there are alot of AoE primarys with high damage.

A lot?

There's a few decent options, sure, but of the, what, hundred or so Primaries we have, the fraction of truly good AoE weapons is rather small.

27 minutes ago, chaotea said:

What primarys need is more damage against single targets, while allowing melee to be the go to for crowd damage.

Given that we mostly fight enemy hordes, and how currently AoE weapons are quite sought after,
no, I really can't agree that more single-target focus is the answer here to make regular guns great again.

It also kind of doesn't make sense to me from a gameplay flow point of view.

I'd rather thin out the horde rushing at me, from a relatively safe distance with a ranged weapon,
and then afterwards have the choice of taking care of the (hopefully) few survivors with my powerful (but less safe) Melee,
or even back up and keep hammering shots into them if they're dangerous enough.

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1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

There's a few decent options, sure, but of the, what, hundred or so Primaries we have, the fraction of truly good AoE weapons is rather small.

I dont know, most of the AoE primarys sit in the higher tier of weapons.

1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

Given that we mostly fight enemy hordes, and how currently AoE weapons are quite sought after,
no, I really can't agree that more single-target focus is the answer here to make regular guns great again.

Most powers, at least offensive ones, focus crowds. What is needed is weapons to take out those tougher to kill enemies. Yes we mostly fight hoards, but we have so many ways to deal with hoards, making guns 'just as good' as melee against hoards is pointless, because you dont need to reload a sword and so it wont be as good. Whats needed is to move there weapons into seperate usage catagories.

1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

It also kind of doesn't make sense to me from a gameplay flow point of view.

I'd rather thin out the horde rushing at me, from a relatively safe distance with a ranged weapon,
and then afterwards have the choice of taking care of the (hopefully) few survivors with my powerful (but less safe) Melee,
or even back up and keep hammering shots into them if they're dangerous enough.

On the other hand doesnt it make more sense to eliminate the more dangerous targets from a safe distance before closing in on the softer, less threatening enemies with melee?

 

Of course neither idea is the better solution, im just giving an idea that giving the different weapons different rolls could be a way to make them all equally useful, without buffing guns too much so that in 2 years we all start complaining that melee its useless compared to using guns.

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vor 53 Minuten schrieb chaotea:

Most powers, at least offensive ones, focus crowds. What is needed is weapons to take out those tougher to kill enemies. Yes we mostly fight hoards, but we have so many ways to deal with hoards, making guns 'just as good' as melee against hoards is pointless, because you dont need to reload a sword and so it wont be as good. Whats needed is to move there weapons into seperate usage catagories.

Well, we already have them, it's called the Rubico, Opticor etc. but are they viable for anything other than a hard to kill enemies?
And even if we have those giga damage guns; there are alternatives: Necramechs and especially Gunblades.

I made this post to show my thinking of how DE might balance it out since they said in the Devstream that they are trying to bring them closer together and thats why I made this post to begin with, It doesn't have to be made like this but it might aswell could because many Weapons lack in that sort of crowd control.
I mean like, why sould i use my mega extreme photon railgun if i could just use a butterknife and contribute more to the team?


What i threw out was just an idea, a spark for the fire. It may contribute or it may not, in the end DE decides everything after all

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3 hours ago, ReLLiKMaster said:

What i threw out was just an idea, a spark for the fire. It may contribute or it may not, in the end DE decides everything after all

Oh hey no, i get that its all good.

I just think that this balance pass cannot be an easy fix like 1 mod that makes guns AoE or something, because at that point you may as well just make all guns AoE as default because everyones going to use it as standard.

For my money, i'd have DE make it so elite enemies take greater damage from primary weapons, and have specilists (like nulifiers, ect) be more vunerable to secondarys.

You dont want to force people to use weapons they dont want to, but if it was viably quicker to switch to a primary to kill an elite, there would be more value in having a mixed loadout.

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vor 20 Stunden schrieb chaotea:

For my money, i'd have DE make it so elite enemies take greater damage from primary weapons, and have specilists (like nulifiers, ect) be more vunerable to secondarys.

You dont want to force people to use weapons they dont want to, but if it was viably quicker to switch to a primary to kill an elite, there would be more value in having a mixed loadout.

Thats a very nice idea but it still won't fix the general problem, but it could actually nerf weapons even more because you'd still have to switch weapons while you can just EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE your way through and primaries and secondaries lose dps in their respective enemies while melees can still go ham however they want.

After some time thinking a good change beside new mods to increse out quality of life would be to just reword the enemies. AKA. giving them more damage, armor, hp, everything.
Because if you realize that "OH CRAP DEY DO BE HARD DOE" then you might consider taking it on slower and more stealthy and with a longer range... with your gun, like a ninja. (then the "ninjas play for free" slogan would make more sense too then).

So yeah all in all DE would need to buff waepons and add more versatile or playstyle-oriented mods, nerf melee mods (ik it's hard to accept but it needs to be done) and lastly buff the ever living hell out of enemies but only so much so that the beginners can also play the game without getting completly waltzed. 

yeh

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On 2021-06-12 at 2:30 PM, ReLLiKMaster said:

So yeah all in all DE would need to buff waepons and add more versatile or playstyle-oriented mods, nerf melee mods (ik it's hard to accept but it needs to be done) and lastly buff the ever living hell out of enemies but only so much so that the beginners can also play the game without getting completly waltzed.

I dont know about that. Its not a cover based shooter, Warframes much more about carving through crowds and being OP.

What we need is more mechanical alterations that straight up buff to enemies.

First, yes damage outputs need equalised throughout weapon types. Then something to encourage swapping weapons. Slower and stealthier doesnt really fit the game. Melee could do with a balance wgere the attack speed goes down but the damamge goes up, and melee combo counter doesnt decay as quickly. So melee would become very strong, but be more a weapon of last resort. Maybe bring back the stamina bar for melee only? Or give melee weapons 'ammo' to represent stamina. Using the melee weapon drains this ammo, not using it resotes the ammo.

 

The problem is theres so much that could be changed or might work or will cause problems its hard to offer any entirely right ideas.

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On 2021-06-11 at 2:25 AM, ReLLiKMaster said:

Alright ima just throw this out in the room:
The fundamental problem of Primaries to melees is that they are not only doing less damage but they also don't hit multiple enemies in most cases, that's why Primaries such as Bramma, Cedo and guns that HAVE AOE are statistically better than Rifles without any AOE because they can hit multiple enemies and do more group damage.
I suggest introducing a mod that adds (or alteast has a chance of adding) and AOE explosion, that doesn't add blast and has a capped damage but rather scales with your damage and effects.

[For example purposes: "Explosive Cap": +140% dmg; 70%-100% chance of exploding on impact; You can't have Serration and this mod in at the same time to balance it out]

This would not only improve Rifles holding a candle to melee's but it would also open a door to a TON of synergies

And yeh that's pretty much it, thanks for listening to my TedTalk 

 

GREAT IDEA. There should be a gun Mod called Incendiary Nuke that make bullets explode on contact and many more new AOE mods that work in different way. If a weapon is for single target only, it should be a lot stronger as well. That's fun. PS the black background is HARD to read. 

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On 2021-06-11 at 12:22 PM, NinjaZeku said:

Given that we mostly fight enemy hordes

THIS       IS       the PROBLEM

Warframe is 99% of horde enemies, DE is not trying to go away from it. So there is no surprise AOE is always king (except 1% like Index, Vodyanoi, a few bosses.. not sure what else..).
I'll ever bother with single target weapons in 2 cases:
1. ALL AOE will be nerfed to the ground (every single one, not only the top ones)
2. A shift from weak horde enemy happens in the direction of something like 20 times less enemies standing away from each other and 20 times thicker (+some weak spots, something Nox-like) and not running aroung like crazy (because in thet case AOE is still better).

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Am 12.6.2021 um 15:30 schrieb ReLLiKMaster:

nerf melee mods (ik it's hard to accept but it needs to be done)

Well, i just shot myself in the knee for saying that huh?

Im saying this because I saw the new mod "rebalance" of melee and how bad they handled it, Blood Rush and CO are acceptable imo (even tho they massacred again my boi Blood Rush) but Berserker?? Cmon DE, you really want to kill melee in high lvl at this point? Weapons like Galatine, Gram and other heavy/ slow melee will suffer VERY HARD because of this. :/

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