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What DE doesn't seem to get about the "Guns vs Melee" Balance Issue


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36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I wouldnt have Lavos as my favorite frame atm if they didnt listen to the community, since all the changes he recieved came from the community. They didnt listen and implement everything, but they listened enough and turned him into a wonderful frame.

You mean tap/hold? Yes, that was huge improvement not only for Lavos.

Otherwise they still haven't fixed his Vial rush turning off sprinting. What's even worse they even changed that ability to steer... but without mouse.... but it still turn off sprint.

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2 hours ago, quxier said:

You mean tap/hold? Yes, that was huge improvement not only for Lavos.

Otherwise they still haven't fixed his Vial rush turning off sprinting. What's even worse they even changed that ability to steer... but without mouse.... but it still turn off sprint.

Most likely because trying to keep spring on caused a bug or issue too complex to bother with. Just sprint again.

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Most likely because trying to keep spring on caused a bug or issue too complex to bother with. Just sprint again.

*sigh*

It's very annoying. It's not even Lavos' thing (well, you can infuse Vial rush but whatever). "Pretty nice" Hover mode for Zephyr is nice but if I had to not regen energy and loose my sprint then .... I don't care about it.

Yeah, I'll tap the key again.

Edited by quxier
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3 hours ago, quxier said:

You mean tap/hold? Yes, that was huge improvement not only for Lavos.

Otherwise they still haven't fixed his Vial rush turning off sprinting. What's even worse they even changed that ability to steer... but without mouse.... but it still turn off sprint.

Tap/hold no not so much. Everything regarding his CD interaction that changed him from a brick to a very smooth frame in higher content. More baseline CD reduction on his #3, being able to reduce the CD of active abilities and so on made massive improvements to him. Vial Rush being bugged still sucks, but it matters little to me since I have far more use slotting Roar, Breach Surge, Elemental Ward or Fire Blast on him, or even Fire Walker at times when I wanna be more mobile. Self buffs or long duration skills just didnt work well prior to the changes since they were always down for atleast 10 seconds after they ended, unless you were lucky to have #3 ready right when they went down.

The increase to the baseline CD reduction of his #3 allows for strength+range stacking on him, which works wonderfully in steel path endless. You pretty much hit everything within 70m+ with his #4 and his #3 has a very easy time tagging targets to reduce CDs even with negative efficiency. That means you can move around alot and remove stragglers 70m+ behind you so you get new spawns where you are at. He's fan-freakin-tastic versus corpus and infested, and he does well versus grineer also, slightly lower damage output due to enemy armor.

Best tank frame imo since he has the potential of AoE clear compared to only the CC or buffs that Inaros, Grendel, Nidus and Valkyr brings to the table. edit: Plus he can get a nice damage buff ontop of that through Helminth with Roar or Breach Surge.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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I think melees should basically be a close range alternative to weapons, a bit better at close range than guns themselves, while not making guns useless.

Edited by Caliboom
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On 2021-06-12 at 8:34 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Buffed aoe weapons and debuffed enemies are just as braindead, and there are ways to avoid stagger. 

Any team of 4 can make 98% of weapons strong, but they choose not to due to their lack of experience. Octavias 4 buff alone is a great damage boost, add harrow, novas 4, gauss etc. 

You ask for a team that's why it's not happening. Warframe is a game of 4 single players in the same map, not a co-op.

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There's also how stance mods make it much much easier to build an effective melee weapon than it is to build an effective primary or secondary.

Sure, I could forma that gun again and again and again. But why bother when I can wail away on hit with my 0 forma melee?

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This 'analysis' kinda misses the mark, as does DE's fix, which has been pointed out numerous times.

The problem sits deeper, in the core damage calculations, namely stacking too many multipliers on the outgoing as well as the incoming side. Add to this that for AOE weapons that portion of their damage gets parsed through the exact same process, only mitigated by 1 extra multiplier (fall-off & follow-through).

However, we have so many multipliers that:

a) even miniscule differences in base stats have outsized effects, pushing the end-result to either of 2 extremes: massive overkill or tickling the enemy.

b) and that the above means AOE is king. Massive overkill x fall-off/follow-through = overkill. Tickling x fall-off/follow through = gentle caress. In other words, why not use AOE? There is no cost, only benefit.

In the context of melee vs guns, melee, through stances, offers extra layers of damage multipliers in the basic combos and through CO/WW and heavy attack builds, as well as increased mod capacity to more easily fit more multipliers. And of course automatic AOE.

Anyway, while melee has an easier time to reach critical multiplier mass, and will do so right up until lvl cap, there are enough guns which obliterate maps until deep enough into endurance runs that most players will ever see, but the issue that we all experience, namely that we can never have (mini-)bosses without invulnerability phases or hard DPS-caps, will not be fixed by what is on the table now.

You simply can not keep stacking layers of multipliers, apply them to a too-wide range of base numbers, and hope the math produces results you can balance a game around.

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Am 13.6.2021 um 10:05 schrieb EnwoQ:

Funny, most people understand the real problem is the non aoe guns (single target) which needs to be fixed
And then some clowns suggest to fix that by making melee single target only
Let's be real here Its GOOD THAT DE DOESN'T Listen (to everything)

Edit: that house is burning (the problem) , let's burn all other houses (the solution)

melee is OP (the problem) , let's buff primarys (the solution)... No... Nerf melee is the correct answer

 

no . you cant fix that. or you get the next problem. either. Sniper is useless cause single target. or Sniper is op cause aoe dmg...

 

u can better nerf melee then buffing guns..

Edited by WaifuJanna
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27 minutes ago, WaifuJanna said:

no . you cant fix that. or you get the next problem. either. Sniper is useless cause single target. or Sniper is op cause aoe dmg...

 

u can better nerf melee then buffing guns..

There are two very simple solution to turning single targets guns into horde killing weapons. Either through "on kill/on crit" attributes or mods that make enemies/bullet explode when killed/kill/crit, or by giving them all innate punch through. It wouldnt be the first game such a thing has been done to help single target options in multi-target high density environments. Diablo and PoE does it, Outriders aswell and several other games ontop of them.

Those games have everything from chaining or piercing spells/weapons to exploding corpses or bullets to help single target weapons keep up. And a unifying thing in all of them... it works!

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3 hours ago, Angwah said:

This 'analysis' kinda misses the mark, as does DE's fix, which has been pointed out numerous times.

The problem sits deeper, in the core damage calculations, namely stacking too many multipliers on the outgoing as well as the incoming side. Add to this that for AOE weapons that portion of their damage gets parsed through the exact same process, only mitigated by 1 extra multiplier (fall-off & follow-through).

However, we have so many multipliers that:

a) even miniscule differences in base stats have outsized effects, pushing the end-result to either of 2 extremes: massive overkill or tickling the enemy.

b) and that the above means AOE is king. Massive overkill x fall-off/follow-through = overkill. Tickling x fall-off/follow through = gentle caress. In other words, why not use AOE? There is no cost, only benefit.

In the context of melee vs guns, melee, through stances, offers extra layers of damage multipliers in the basic combos and through CO/WW and heavy attack builds, as well as increased mod capacity to more easily fit more multipliers. And of course automatic AOE.

Anyway, while melee has an easier time to reach critical multiplier mass, and will do so right up until lvl cap, there are enough guns which obliterate maps until deep enough into endurance runs that most players will ever see, but the issue that we all experience, namely that we can never have (mini-)bosses without invulnerability phases or hard DPS-caps, will not be fixed by what is on the table now.

You simply can not keep stacking layers of multipliers, apply them to a too-wide range of base numbers, and hope the math produces results you can balance a game around.

Stances are the melee equivalent of multishot, except doesn't use up a standard slot and gives capacity instead of using it.

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On 2021-06-11 at 10:54 AM, quxier said:

And I think opposite. I think many weapons are boring (and doing nothing interesting) and when you add Primed fury game becomes unrecognizable mess.

Aiming with RMB might be slower, sure, but without it it's not always true. Sometimes it's harder to go from point A to point B (where enemy is). Sometimes it's just easier to shoot the enemy.

Carrier, Looter, Ammo case and other stuffs makes gathering loot/ammo easier. No need to destroy everything with melee.

Not sure about it. In my opinion we should have option to set melee speed to some reasonable speed and scale damage/status/crit/something.

Whole combo system require lot of work. Division on normal > forward >block > forward block combos IS good start. Now there should be reason to use each combos from the start (no unique feature at the end). And forward/backward combos should move you forward/backward and other 2 shouldn't move you (at least much less than forward/backward one).

This is one nice idea.

This is what I'm afraid of. What if now I can mod weapon for 2 things but someone says STOP IT'S STATUS NOW? No... I don't like it.

Me and my Carrier P say "HI"!

The original post is talking about the current meta and the state of the game currently. 

You saying that you -personally- think melee is boring and whatnot is fine but that doesn't change the fact that it is super meta right now and there needs to be a change because guns are barely worth using in the grand scheme.

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5 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

You ask for a team that's why it's not happening. Warframe is a game of 4 single players in the same map, not a co-op.

Not anyone's problem if the tools provided aren't utilized. Some issues are player issues, and this is common.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Jmazing7 said:

The original post is talking about the current meta and the state of the game currently. 

You saying that you -personally- think melee is boring and whatnot is fine but that doesn't change the fact that it is super meta right now and there needs to be a change because guns are barely worth using in the grand scheme.

That's funny, because I still see people using guns. 

Only people having an issue are those that want to delete the map in steel path as easily as they do everywhere else. Anywhere else in this game and guns do more than enough damage to deal with any enemy. 

Players will complain until Steel Path becomes as trivial as sorties. Then you'll see talk of Steel Path+. Rinse and repeat. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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Stances on primary and secondary

Rare Primary stance "Insert name"

Enables grenade throw on melee when melee is not equip (affected by gun combo counter)

Rare Secondary stance "Insert name"

When Melee is not equip (affected by gun combo counter) pressing will drain combo counter and all bullet will ricochet

Uncommon Primary & Secondary Stance

Dodging reloads 100% magazine (will work with melee equip)

 

Just another example of niche things that will make gunplay appealing (and/or FUN?).

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2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's funny, because I still see people using guns. 

Only people having an issue are those that want to delete the map in steel path as easily as they do everywhere else. Anywhere else in this game and guns do not than enough damage to deal with any enemy. 

just tday i was using akarius in sp corpus daily and it was clearing through just as fast as regular star chart, does the same against infested but the point it stops being effective is when it hits a grineer wall, armor is just nuts for guns to handle.

the situation is rather sp grineer vs guns

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We can discuss more of the things to add, to do, etc... but unless DE devs take notice on this thread, this has no point..

Someone needs to start "@de-ing"  the right person so before the update some of the ideas can be considered.

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6 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

just tday i was using akarius in sp corpus daily and it was clearing through just as fast as regular star chart, does the same against infested but the point it stops being effective is when it hits a grineer wall, armor is just nuts for guns to handle.

the situation is rather sp grineer vs guns

I find that modding specifically for grineer is very effective. I still do well with certain guns. I also don't think it's a bad thing that melee is more effective against a faction. 

I feel like trying to balance things too much will just make any choice feel inconsequential. 

In steel path, factions should change the way we approach them. The armored faction takes a more hands on approach at times. Why is that such an issue? Should be a strength. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I find that modding specifically for grineer is very effective. I still do well with certain guns. I also don't think it's a bad thing that melee is more effective against a faction. 

I feel like trying to balance things too much will just make any choice feel inconsequential. 

In steel path, factions should change the way we approach them. The armored faction takes a more hands on approach at times. Why is that such an issue? Should be a strength. 

certain guns yes, popular aoe and certain shotguns do fine but given how many guns there are ingame that handful is rather limiting.

not being able to have fun with weapons i've grinded and formad a dozen times feels like spilled beer. 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Jmazing7 said:

he original post is talking about the current meta and the state of the game currently. 

You saying that you -personally- think melee is boring and whatnot is fine but that doesn't change the fact that it is super meta right now and there needs to be a change because guns are barely worth using in the grand scheme.

OP talks about lot of different stuffs.

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On 2021-06-12 at 11:54 PM, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I feel like its a problem, that DE made steel path and all of a sudden wants to balance the game around it.

Balancing the game around level 100+ ebemies with health, armor, and shield modifiers that make them tankier than anything else in the game (realistically) is going to cause two issues.

 

1) the "hard mode" will be balanced as if its a new "normal mode"

2) "normal" mode will be a 1 shot fest or close to it even more than it already is. 

 

It also conveniently ignores the fact that non AOE guns lose to melee or aoe just by virtue of not being able to attack multiple enemies at once and having reload times.

I thought about this for a while but, ultimately, I think the potential changes (based on DE's pathway) are gonna make things much better.

- If better options for guns means a more varied setup, then new experimental setups can be tried. Meta isn't for everyone and some are too new in the game to have meta setups.

- Applying a vet's mind to changes often lead to me mistakenly assuming everyone is as experienced as I am. I've learned that most players fear Mot, sorties, arbi, disruption and definitely Railjack, Profit-Taker, the Eidolons and Steel Path.

- Playstyles vary and DE loves to provide options. 

Either way, we'll see. Speculation is always self-inflicted wounding. LOL! 

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3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's funny, because I still see people using guns. 

Only people having an issue are those that want to delete the map in steel path as easily as they do everywhere else. Anywhere else in this game and guns do more than enough damage to deal with any enemy. 

Players will complain until Steel Path becomes as trivial as sorties. Then you'll see talk of Steel Path+. Rinse and repeat. 

Oh yeah I totally agree, guns are fun as hell and I hate people who don't use them just because, "they are .01% less efficient than melee"

But that doesn't change the fact that the original post is just stating the facts about melee being meta and objectively better than guns to which quxier responded by saying OP is wrong because he likes guns.

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On 2021-06-11 at 6:21 AM, Roble_Viejo said:

In Devstream #152, DE acknowledged the problem of "Guns vs Melee", but they only talked about Damage (which is just a part of the whole issue), and something that I found personally concerning: They listed Melee Attack Speed specifically as a problem, when its not, and in fact is one of the reason some melees are so fun in the first place.

Let's see if Dev will be killing this fun factor for the sake of "balancing" It will be out of their minds if they kill melees and melees' speed in the game. Many people love melees and still enjoy it after massive nerf from melee 2.0 to 3.0 because it could be fast. Now they want to nerf it again due to some complains? Why can't they focus on what's fun, keep it, and improve what's weak? 

 

Agreeing pretty much the rest of the points your listed. Melees are inherently working this way because they are melees. It's the same in every game. If they want to make guns more powerful, just do so, do not do it the other way on melees. A lot of players will leave. This is a PvE game, NOT PvP. 

Edited by George_PPS
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I haven't been keeping super up to date by watching every devstream but in the last one i caught they said the way they would be handling this will be more of a gun buff than a melee nerf.

Is that still what's happening or have they changed their minds?

Or maybe it was never happening and they sugarcoated their lies.

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1 hour ago, (PSN)Jmazing7 said:

I haven't been keeping super up to date by watching every devstream but in the last one i caught they said the way they would be handling this will be more of a gun buff than a melee nerf.

Is that still what's happening or have they changed their minds?

Or maybe it was never happening and they sugarcoated their lies.

They haven't changed their minds since that Dev stream. For the most part, people are doing what they do best: create a narrative through speculation and complain as if their assumptions somehow are true. Happens every time a change comes around.

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