What DE doesn't seem to get about the "Guns vs Melee" Balance Issue

[(XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE]

I like gunplay over melee tbh, but it's hard to argue with the ability to slap a stance mod on a weapon, and gain a whole stack of usable capacity to then stack additional broken af melee mods on whereas a gun needs to be forma'd over and over and over and even then you lose any xp gain towards MR after the first initial max rank on it. I feel this needs to be changed too, if a guy wants to gain MR but releveling his/her favorite weapon over and over who cares, they are STILL playing your game and experiencing your content.

 

Until they remove stances, readjust them to drain and not add capacity, or add the equivalent to primary/secondary weapons there will never be a balance. Ever.

 

I don't know of too many other games that give you freely the ability to hit so many enemies with melee at the same time, which I think is a serious fault in Warframe, because in other games that have both, or focus on just melee alone, your average attack only hits multiple targets if they are super super close to each other, you have a skill unlocked or perk to hit more than one, or using a larger weapon that has a larger AoE for its attack zone.  WF has this thing where even a dagger weapon can attack and kill several enemies at once in a cone around your character.  Yet ballistic weapons don't often get punch through as an innate function and ALL melee weapons do.  Add to that Slash ignores armor completely and slash melee will absolutely 100% apply slash procs and you further the gap between them.  Why not make it enemy specific so that impact weapons need used against shielded enemies, slash against soft targets, like infested, and puncture for armored ones.

 

The ways to try and balance this honestly lay more on adjusting enemy AI than adjusting numbers for stats.  Stop balancing the game around the most broken setups .

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

I like gunplay over melee tbh, but it's hard to argue with the ability to slap a stance mod on a weapon, and gain a whole stack of usable capacity to then stack additional broken af melee mods on whereas a gun needs to be forma'd over and over and over and even then you lose any xp gain towards MR after the first initial max rank on it. I feel this needs to be changed too, if a guy wants to gain MR but releveling his/her favorite weapon over and over who cares, they are STILL playing your game and experiencing your content.

 

Until they remove stances, readjust them to drain and not add capacity, or add the equivalent to primary/secondary weapons there will never be a balance. Ever.

 

I don't know of too many other games that give you freely the ability to hit so many enemies with melee at the same time, which I think is a serious fault in Warframe, because in other games that have both, or focus on just melee alone, your average attack only hits multiple targets if they are super super close to each other, you have a skill unlocked or perk to hit more than one, or using a larger weapon that has a larger AoE for its attack zone.  WF has this thing where even a dagger weapon can attack and kill several enemies at once in a cone around your character.  Yet ballistic weapons don't often get punch through as an innate function and ALL melee weapons do.  Add to that Slash ignores armor completely and slash melee will absolutely 100% apply slash procs and you further the gap between them.  Why not make it enemy specific so that impact weapons need used against shielded enemies, slash against soft targets, like infested, and puncture for armored ones.

 

The ways to try and balance this honestly lay more on adjusting enemy AI than adjusting numbers for stats.  Stop balancing the game around the most broken setups .

"I don't know of too many other games that give you freely the ability to hit so many enemies with melee at the same time, which I think is a serious fault in Warframe, because in other games that have both, or focus on just melee alone, your average attack only hits multiple targets if they are super super close to each other, you have a skill unlocked or perk to hit more than one, or using a larger weapon that has a larger AoE for its attack zone.  WF has this thing where even a dagger weapon can attack and kill several enemies at once in a cone around your character.  Yet ballistic weapons don't often get punch through as an innate function and ALL melee weapons do.  Add to that Slash ignores armor completely and slash melee will absolutely 100% apply slash procs and you further the gap between them.  Why not make it enemy specific so that impact weapons need used against shielded enemies, slash against soft targets, like infested, and puncture for armored ones."

Most melee based games, like Dynasty Warriors, allow multi-hit melee damage and Warframe is no exception. Warframe even includes follow-through stats to give you data on how the hits work. FPS games, on the other hand, usually just have basic melee so it makes sense for those to be single target. The largest reason why it's much more forgiving in Warframe is because super powered space ninja...and because this game is all about fluidity and motion. It's world famous for the very thing you're talking about wanting to change.

"I like gunplay over melee tbh, but it's hard to argue with the ability to slap a stance mod on a weapon, and gain a whole stack of usable capacity to then stack additional broken af melee mods on whereas a gun needs to be forma'd over and over and over and even then you lose any xp gain towards MR after the first initial max rank on it. I feel this needs to be changed too, if a guy wants to gain MR but releveling his/her favorite weapon over and over who cares, they are STILL playing your game and experiencing your content."

Steel Path aside, guns have no issues performing equally or better than melee. It all depends on who's using the gun and how they're using it. Punch-through can destroy a corridor of enemies instantly from 80 meters away while multi-shot solves damage gap issues. Also, fortifying a mastered weapon should not receive additional mastery points. 

 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

FPS games, on the other hand, usually just have basic melee so it makes sense for those to be single target. The largest reason why it's much more forgiving in Warframe is because super powered space ninja...and because this game is all about fluidity and motion. It's world famous for the very thing you're talking about wanting to change.

Those things are only tangentially related.    A game can be fluid -and- oriented to single target kills.  It's even possible in this game.  It's just not efficient for the bulk of the content because of other design choices the developers have made.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Those things are only tangentially related.    "A game can be fluid -and- oriented to single target kills."  It's even possible in this game.  It's just not efficient for the bulk of the content because of other design choices the developers have made.

 

Yes and Warframe has that. There was no argument there. None at all. In fact, the beauty of this game lies within its options to do so.  

The question is can single target exclusively work well in Warframe? The answer is no because the other 4-20 enemies will have plenty of time to shoot you as you attempt to melee Nox to death. DE was smart to implement this type of melee system and it is why the game has survived longer than most.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

I dont use guns alot because the enemy closes distance to me to fast or I close distance to them to fast.    Most missions require you to be very mobile.    Standing still and shooting stuff just isnt an option most of the time.    And yes it usually takes a ton of bullets to take stuff out.   Armor/HP is obviously geared towards melee as a baseline.  

DE said they dont wanna mess with base stats because most guns are in a good spot....... great, give all guns +100% to damage.   They will still all be mostly balanced right ??? 

------------

I could rant about 50 different things but I just wanted to share my reasons for not using guns mainly.   I still havent had any Primary gun take the lead from my Braton Prime I used back as a newb lol.   

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yes and Warframe has that. There was no argument there. None at all. In fact, the beauty of this game lies within its options to do so.  

It sounds like you should withdraw the argument I quoted then, since you agree there is no argument. 🤨 

8 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The question is can single target exclusively work well in Warframe?

Exclusively, no. And even predominantly or prevalently is hard to imagine. 

But new content that incentivizes those weapons, or  changes to some of the content we already have could at least give them a deeper role.

[Dairaion]

On 2021-06-11 at 9:21 AM, Roble_Viejo said:

In Devstream #152, DE acknowledged the problem of "Guns vs Melee", but they only talked about Damage (which is just a part of the whole issue), and something that I found personally concerning: They listed Melee Attack Speed specifically as a problem, when its not, and in fact is one of the reason some melees are so fun in the first place.
In Devstream #155 they reiterated the disbalance issue and said "Melees need a nerf", "Primaries won't get stat increases across the board", "Buffs will come in the form of Mods".

Below I'm gonna list some of the components of Warframe (and any Shooter with Melee for that matter), how and why they clash in the current state of Warframe's gameplay and how this is an issue which emerged from the evolution of the game, and not something inherently good/bad about these weapons. But before I wanna clarify I've been playing for over 6 years, I'm MR 30, +5000hs on Steam, so I've pretty much experienced every weapon and gamemode in this game.

Dynasty Warframe: Hordes and Cover

So in the beginnings, Warframe was a Shooter like any other, couple of shots got you killed, getting in Melee range was a risk and using Cover was THE way of killing enemies and staying alive. A slower, more methodical gameplay. But because the AI has always been pretty much braindead, DE didn't have a way to scale difficulty but to make MORE enemies, with MORE Stats. Fast forward to today and using Cover is a joke, as enemies spawn constantly and from every direction, and for that reason even the act of Aiming puts you in a disadvantage unless you are paying constant attention to the minimap so you don't get flanked. This is what is usually known as "Horde Enemies". And of course, the way players play the game changed to adapt to this playstyle: AoE is king, and survivability depends on using abilities non stop, to either nuke, perma cc or tank, because if you don't you will get overwhelmed and killed. As you might have noticed, this lines up with the most used items, which could be considered "meta": Heavy hitting AoE (Bramma, Nukor, Khora), anything that can Tank and/or Buff Itself (Inaros, Nezha, Rhino) and whatever can Perma CC (Vauban, Nova, Khora). So naturally the game shifted from a "Slow -Clean rooms shooter" to a "Fast -Stay alive hack and slash", meaning the only missions that can be played purely as a shooter are those that don't spawn enemies constantly (Exterminate) or involve long distances between players-enemies (Open Worlds). Sadly there is probably no way to revert the "Dynasty Warframe" enemy Hordes gamestyle the game has now.

Enemies killed per Swing/Shot

This one is pretty simple: Melee will ALWAYS affect more enemies than (non AOE) guns, which means as long you are using a gun and actually aiming you are losing time, and there are more enemies spawning than being killed, meaning you are getting closer to be overwhelmed and die. And even if the mission doesn't have quick spawns, you are still playing slower by using a gun, and in a looter game, specially with such amount of RNG and mission time adding up to a massive grind, you will ALWAYS want to complete missions as fast as possible.

Evolutive Mods: Awful for Build Diversity, Awesome for Gameplay

Now this what I think DE should address first, because this is the actual reason Melee dominate the meta, not because they have INHERETLY better stats, but because they have Evolutive Mods (Blood Rush, Condition Overload) which makes them stronger the more you actively use them. And I know what you might be thinking "Just add the corresponding version of each Evolutive mod to Guns" and I ask "What will happen? How will builds look like?" the answer is simple, the same copy+paste build on everything. So no, Evolutive mods shouldn't be added to Guns, but the Evolutive mechanics should be BASELINE in ALL Weapons. This will require some rebalancing across the game, for sure, but making the Weapons get stronger the more you ACTIVELY use them, is fun, rewarding and FAIR. Also the removal of Evolutive Mods would make room to actually diverse builds, because currently if you are not using either Blood Rush or Condition Overload you are doing it wrong. And this has to do with the Melee Attack Speed which [DE]Geoff listed as a problem, it is not that Melees have too much Attack Speed, is that players build for it so the Evolutive Mods scale faster. In Devstream #155 [DE]Geoff acknowledged Evolutive Mods and the willing to add them for Primary and Secondary Weapons, but said they wouldn't buff Guns stats across the board which in my opinion is a mistake, because even with Evolutive Mods Primary and Secondary total damage is much lower than Melees, meaning that Evolutive Mods will take longer, and have a harder cap of "evolution" compared to Melees, because Evolutive Mods scale based on raw stats.

Pick Ups and Vacuum, the never ending battle between DE and the Community

Guns use ammo, some have VERY small ammo pools, to get ammo you need to pick up loot, to pick up loot you need to get in melee range. Melees don't use ammo, in melee range you pick up loot instantly, so you get HP/Energy Orbs sooner, which adds to your survivability. So: Melees are inherently more convenient to use because of how Pick-Ups work, even if they were equally strong to Guns.

Melee and Datamass, an Unbreakable Bond.

This is a subtle yet very important matter here. Melees are our default Weapon when carrying a Datamass, or when we are Fishing, Mining or Hunting, or when using the Omni Tool in Railjack, or carrying Coolant Cells, etc. When we are performing these actions, we only have Abilities and Melee to kill the enemies and keep doing what we were doing. A nerf to Melees will subsequentially make all of these activities suck even more than what they already suck now. Now pair this with the leaked Gun Mods, the ones adding % Damage if you DON'T have a Melee equipped, and you will probably understand my deep concern.

Difficulty: Mechanical Skill vs Superior Stats

All of the consecutive changes that led to "Dynasty Warframe", SPECIALLY the lack of ANY AI update whatsoever, made it so the only way DE can ramp up the difficulty is making more enemies, harder to kill, with layers upon layers of Invulnerability Phases or Ability Nullification. Basically in Warframe you don't need to learn attack patterns and aim to weak-spots, you just need to pass the "Stats Check" meaning that Player's Skill and Weapon Mechanics are secondary to Raw Stats, so naturally the meta changed from "Git Gud" to "Git the Items that Make you Gud". The best example I can give is Steel Path, Kuva Fortress Disruption: The Demolisher Units have BOTH Ability Nullification and Stats Layers (and Invulnerability if you count the shield), so it doesn't matter the frame you have, you need the biggest DPS dispenser in your arsenal and you need to find a way to uber your build to not die because otherwise you are not gonna be alive for long enough to even damage the Demolishers, which cant be stopped as they are not affected by abilities.

Below are some comments I got the last time I discussed these ideas here:

Melee Attack Speed mods need to be additive and not multiplicative.

This shouldn't be done to "nerf" Melee, but instead because ludicrous attack speed makes Combos (ergo Animations) completely irrelevant. DE should balance this change to Melee Speeds, by giving us more compelling Combos, with some kind of scaling and polishing the ratio Animation Time / Damage.

Playtime

This is something that came up here and in the forums. Basically the fact Warframe needs to be fast and have relatively easy enemies, because the grindy nature of the game makes its so you will need to run missions repeatedly most of the time. I think this is part of a bigger issue, Playtime is not respected as it should, RNG is either extremely easy or extremely hard, no in-between (I've never seen a single Braton Vandal Stock in over 4 years of almost daily ESO runs). But (and this is important) DE seems to be aware of this, because the "medallion" system Deimos embraced is one of the best ways to reward Playtime: "You get the Loot with luck, or you grind enough Medallions to buy it". Now the connection between Playtime to Melee Attack Speed is a long one, but I think the middle point is Missions Requirements, we need more "Clean this map of enemies" and less "Stand here for 3 minutes"

Evolutive Mods (Blood Rush, Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds) were stated as the 1# factor for most of the disparity in "Melee vs Guns" powercreep. Personally I think they should be removed and ALL weapons should be given Evolutive Attributes. This is how I stated it in another comment:

"Remove all Evolutive Mods. Every Weapon has different Evolutive Attributes that scale. For some Crit Chance, for others Status Chance, or Multishot, Fire Rate, maybe even stuff like +Elemental Dmg."

This opens a LOT of possibilities, and a new Layer of Balance DE can make. Like "Well all players build this weapon for crit but it has good status chance, what if we lower the crit chance but give it +Elemental dmg on hit, so they could run it as an elemental weapon too?" Best way to balance is to give nerfs and buffs equally, and for that you need a variety of interactions. As it is now DE only have: Dmg, crit chance and riven disposition to balance the meta, that's why everytime a good weapon comes out, it overshadows all the ok weapons.

The blazing fast gameplay was an emergent phenomenon to a heavy grind game.

This is simple, players will always try to run missions as fast as possible, so Kill-Time will always be king. Is not just that Melees kill too fast, is that Guns kill too slow.

Dynasty-Warframe

Hordes and braindead AI, the reason the game rewards "Stat Checks" and not Attack Patterns learning or Weakspot Aiming. There is probably no going back from this, but better enemy design, and less reliance on massive spawns and layers of dmg reduction for difficulty is the road to take to start improving on this aspect. Is not that Dynasty-Warframe is bad, is that the game wasn't designed as such in the beginnings and the older systems are starting to show their cracks.

Ludicrous Attack Speeds on Melees abolish Combos and disregard Animations

A lot of people talked how the bind Melee Attack on Mouse Wheel so they don't destroy their keys, and how they would like to actually learn and use combos (if they actually behaved as combos and had scaling properties). Combo Counter time is a BIG issue here. Personally I think the Timer should be removed, combos should have scaling properties (Evolutive Attributes) added to combos, and DE should balance Speed and DMG, slower attacks should be stronger than light attacks. The combo counter should be STILL consumed on Heavy Attack tho, as it is now, Combos and Heavy Attacks are 2 completely separate things.

Well, this took WAY too long and my time ran out, so I couldn't include everything or grammar check the whole post. Please comment down below your thoughts on this matter. Tomorrow I'm gonna edit the post with anything I missed and with any valid additions from comments. Hopefully this gets traction, because we need to Discuss this before DE starts working on changes, so we have better chances of being heard.

And.... That's pretty much it. Remember to keep the discussion civil, that's how we keep a healthy community and make sure our Feedback is heard.

Remember Tenno We All Lift Together Good Luck, Have Fun and Take Care

Thank you VERY much for reading Tenno, have a nice day and take care. Peace 🙏😊

This is all so true. Let’s not forget that we’re space ninjas, and there’s nothing ninja about assaulting a base that knows your there with a space AK. Melee’s preeminence is due to them building a game where 

A. Guns do damage equivalent to most irl air rifles 

B. Melee, which by all accounts should be a one hit kill machine so you can slow it down and see all those pretty animations, has been simplified into a series of beyblade like weapons only differentiated by their damage types.

[Roble_Viejo]

En 13/6/2021 a las 12:29, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 dijo:

Otherwise they still haven't fixed his Vial rush turning off sprinting.

You know what's funny? Since then a lot of abilities turn your Sprint off now
Like Nyx's Absorb and Nezha's Chakram teleport.

[WaifuJanna]

Am 14.6.2021 um 15:17 schrieb SneakyErvin:

There are two very simple solution to turning single targets guns into horde killing weapons. Either through "on kill/on crit" attributes or mods that make enemies/bullet explode when killed/kill/crit, or by giving them all innate punch through. It wouldnt be the first game such a thing has been done to help single target options in multi-target high density environments. Diablo and PoE does it, Outriders aswell and several other games ontop of them.

Those games have everything from chaining or piercing spells/weapons to exploding corpses or bullets to help single target weapons keep up. And a unifying thing in all of them... it works!

dont we have a mod already that if u kill an enemy an explosion accours dealing 500 dmg in an area? I think so. Then they just need to revamp the mod and make it scale with the weapon and not be a flat 500 dmg. Make it be 50% of the initial dmg.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, WaifuJanna said:

dont we have a mod already that if u kill an enemy an explosion accours dealing 500 dmg in an area? I think so. Then they just need to revamp the mod and make it scale with the weapon and not be a flat 500 dmg. Make it be 50% of the initial dmg.

Yep there should be some such mod for weapons somewhere. And yeah, some simple scaling to those mods would work. They just need to add more of them, like "on head shot" or based on a cooldown similar to how the mods work in Outriders. On crit wouldnt really work here since we can get guaranteed crits on weapons too easily.

They could also follow pretty much the same system as Outriders where on-kill mods have a 1 sec internal CD, on crit/headshot tend to have 3sec and then on-hit mods sit between 1-8 seconds depending on what exactly they do, how much damage they deal and how much area they cover. More area often means lower damage and higher CD, while single target procs often have a short CD but also lower damage.

[Captain_Rocket505]

So to me, 90% of the time I see melee being used a ton. I truly support a WELL THOUGHT OUT nerf to melee, but simply nerfing it isnt the end solution. One thing I think also needs to be addressed is the heavy attacks and how they work, especially with glaives that are capable of nuking rooms. It sucks as a guy who enjoys the cedo to set up a pack of enemies, then loose the chance to do something because a brain dead player pressed e after launching a glaive prime into that same pile of enemies. While I like the idea of having a system of evolution attributes in guns, it would seem hard to add then say some mods. That being said, if it’s explored more it would be a good idea. Overall well written post, I really enjoyed reading it. It’s a shame many posts that talk about situations like this are either “Nerf bad” or “Nerf harder”. Having a calm collected post like this really helps explain the main issues, well done mate.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

Buffs will come in the form of Mods".

Oh dear.... I hate it when Fixes come in the form of "Features" rather than you know.... Actually fixing it.....

Because now you gotta grind or pay or unlock the Fix.... And then you have to sacrifice a slot to actually benefit from it.

 

So basically DE Admitted to using Band Aids to Design their Game... 🤔 !!!

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

But before I wanna clarify I've been playing for over 6 years, I'm MR 30, +5000hs on Steam, so I've pretty much experienced every weapon and gamemode in this game.

You really don't have to tell me the specifics.... I'l take your word for it 😁 !!!

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

and whatever can Perma CC (Vauban, Nova, Khora)

It's very interesting that Booben came to be mentioned here before Limbo did.... Booben is usually easily forgotten 😝 !!!

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

Evolutive Mods: Awful for Build Diversity, Awesome for Gameplay

"Evolutive" isn't doing it for me.... Can we get a Different Word.... Something Sexier and easier to remember 🤔 ?

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

they have Evolutive Mods (Blood Rush, Condition Overload) which makes them stronger the more you actively use them.

Ironically enough this is why I never bothered with Melee back before it's rework... I didn't want to be chained into using my Melee Weapon.... FOREVER 😱 !!!!

Thankfully the Melee Rework alleviated this.... Atleast for Standard Content....

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

but making the Weapons get stronger the more you ACTIVELY use them, is fun, rewarding and FAIR.

We have very different definitions of "Fun"....

I have more fun when I actively vary which weapons I use.... I get bored if I'm punished for not using a single weapon all the time.

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

Pick Ups and Vacuum, the never ending battle between DE and the Community

Guns use ammo, some have VERY small ammo pools, to get ammo you need to pick up loot, to pick up loot you need to get in melee range. Melees don't use ammo, in melee range you pick up loot instantly, so you get HP/Energy Orbs sooner, which adds to your survivability. So: Melees are inherently more convenient to use because of how Pick-Ups work, even if they were equally strong to Guns.

This is very insightful.... I never considered this 😲 !!!

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

so naturally the meta changed from "Git Gud" to "Git the Items that Make you Gud".

Pretty Much....

Unfortunately that doesn't stop Trolls from yelling ",Git Gud" anyways.... But that's a different problem all together.

On 2021-06-11 at 3:21 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

but I think the middle point is Missions Requirements, we need more "Clean this map of enemies" and less "Stand here for 3 minutes"

I believe this is one of The Critisms with Scarlet Spear and basically just all new content in General revolves around waiting for Timers to end one way or another.

On 2021-06-15 at 12:54 AM, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

 

I don't know of too many other games that give you freely the ability to hit so many enemies with melee at the same time, which I think is a serious fault in Warframe, because in other games that have both, or focus on just melee alone, your average attack only hits multiple targets if they are super super close to each other, you have a skill unlocked or perk to hit more than one, or using a larger weapon that has a larger AoE for its attack zone. 

The Devil May Cry Reboot allows you to do this using an Angel weapon called Aquila, the Weapon itself isn't actually more capable of hitting more enemies than the other weapons.... But it does have a Feature that can bring up to 8 Enemies Close to you... Allowing you to smack all of them not just with Aquila (Tornado) but all your Other Weapons too.... And that's it.... That's the only game I know where you can Melee that many Enemies all at once....

On 2021-06-15 at 4:36 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

FPS games, on the other hand, usually just have basic melee so it makes sense for those to be single target.

I'd also like to point out that in FPS and TPS games Melee is usually an Instant kill.... It would have to be since sticking your neck out for 3 Seconds equals death.... Otherwise you'll wind up with Rise Of The Tomb Raider's wonky Melee System where you deal more Melee damage if enemies come to you rather than if you go to them (Dodge Kill vs Axe Attacks).... Yeah... That was not fun....

 

[Aldain]

5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

"Evolutive" isn't doing it for me.... Can we get a Different Word.... Something Sexier and easier to remember 🤔 ?

How about "Excessively Obtuse Scaling" mods?

[ElKayJae]

Inherently melee does not require aiming and is much more comfortable to use. If they gave guns auto aim pple would be using them :).

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Bleed circumvents armor scaling and the scaling Critical Chance takes care of the enemy's scaling health. 

The Acolyte mods were honestly a mistake, but so is armor scaling at all. 

The multipliers are just out of control. 

Level 60 enemies used to mean something, but on the other hand, loot doesn't scale.

A lot of meaningless power to fight meaningless scaling.

Steel Essence is honestly only good for gamble juice.

At the end, all we have are a bunch of annoying bosses with invincibly phases and status immunity.

 

[Danielw8]

On 2021-06-11 at 11:29 AM, ReaverKane said:

Also Molecular Prime (which is why my goto warframe for Disruption is Nova with Ensnare added through Helminth).
 

Lockdown, zenurik blast, cold procs, harrow 1... even maybe inaros 1 works

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

14 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Bleed circumvents armor scaling and the scaling Critical Chance takes care of the enemy's scaling health. 

The Acolyte mods were honestly a mistake, but so is armor scaling at all. 

The multipliers are just out of control. 

Level 60 enemies used to mean something, but on the other hand, loot doesn't scale.

A lot of meaningless power to fight meaningless scaling.

Steel Essence is honestly only good for gamble juice.

At the end, all we have are a bunch of annoying bosses with invincibly phases and status immunity.

 

....after a massively long time to acquire all of that power and knowledge. I think we remove the journey out of the discussion too much. If the game was played without immediately jumping to the "how do I bypass the entire game experience" videos and guides, then all of the above points would be REWARDS for making it to the full scope of the game. Well. that was at least my experience over 5 years. 

Lastly, I think the public attempt to convince DE to "balance" the game would result in an epic disaster if it were to actually happen. The "gun" issue in SP is more in line with how other games, like Borderlands, deals damage to high level enemies. Some players are in pure freak-out mode because DE mention slightly detuning melee to get closer to the guns. Therefore, what would an actual full balance sweep do? Nerf every weapon, mod and warframe power so enemies can survive a few extra hits....only for the demand for "less bullet sponges" to reappear. It's just an endless cycle of discussion in that regard and I'm glad DE is using a 60,000ft overview of those discussions. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-06-15 at 6:50 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Exclusively, no. And even predominantly or prevalently is hard to imagine. 

But new content that incentivizes those weapons, or  changes to some of the content we already have could at least give them a deeper role.

We already have general stealth, exterminate, spy, rescue and some sabotage missions that primarily takes care of those needs. The daggers were the go-tos for those types of missions for me, as well as silenced snipers and high-crit secondaries. The general noise from the forums and youtube lead players to believe this type of play isn't an option but that's only because rushframe. Daggers, Machetes, cleavers and the old channeling system were all well purposed for quick, single target dispatching without leaving a trace. Since then, heat and corrosive have replaced channeling's dissipating enemy effect, keeping the single target stealth system alive and completely useable.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

....after a massively long time to acquire all of that power and knowledge. I think we remove the journey out of the discussion too much. If the game was played without immediately jumping to the "how do I bypass the entire game experience" videos and guides, then all of the above points would be REWARDS for making it to the full scope of the game. Well. that was at least my experience over 5 years. 

Lastly, I think the public attempt to convince DE to "balance" the game would result in an epic disaster if it were to actually happen. The "gun" issue in SP is more in line with how other games, like Borderlands, deals damage to high level enemies. Some players are in pure freak-out mode because DE mention slightly detuning melee to get closer to the guns. Therefore, what would an actual full balance sweep do? Nerf every weapon, mod and warframe power so enemies can survive a few extra hits....only for the demand for "less bullet sponges" to reappear. It's just an endless cycle of discussion in that regard and I'm glad DE is using a 60,000ft overview of those discussions. 

The biggest issue is that early game doesn't play by the same rules as late game.

Early game, without potatoes, critical chance, multishot or an even fully ranked up Serration, resistances matter.

Unmodded Boltor shreds Grineer and tickles Corpus. Shields feel tanky, until a potato let's is brute force shields with a cocktail of damage multipliers.

Early on, armor is so low that Bleed isn't better than other DOTs and Puncture is more effective especially with the fact that Low MR weapons have such low status%.

Then armor scaling gets so ridiculous that Bleed ignoring armor matters more than Corrosive or Radiation's double dipping armor modifiers.

Armor even after the nerf in scaling remains the one enemy stat players even care about.

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

45 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

We already have general stealth, exterminate, spy, rescue and some sabotage missions that primarily takes care of those needs.

[Lutesque]

21 hours ago, Aldain said:

How about "Excessively Obtuse Scaling" mods?

Much Better 🙂 !!!