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Melee being too strong may be caused by their overtuned stats


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Seeing the melee nerf, I think their stat may be increased a bit too much while primary and secondary has little change in stat, with mods boosting the number to ridiculous level

For example : Fragor Prime with 40% critical chance and 270 base damage or Broken War with 35% critical chance and 185 base damage. Put sacrificial steel (200% crit) and we're looking at 100% crit melee slamming everything in its path. Put primed pressure point, any critical damage mod, berserker, and if you're not satisfied, blood rush/gladiator mods

When you have a blender of death that deals critical damage on every hit, gain attack speed and at some cases able to go hybrid, wrecking enemies even faster, why use primary or secondary? Not to mention our warframe is claimed to be immortal that you have to try hard just to die

Maybe melee stats need to be toned down considerably. I understand if melee need to have power as short range weapon but with what we have currently? I think it's too much

For balance, right?

So we can have our difficulty and challenge when everything is not overpowered, right?

Edited by TheArmchairThinker
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The reason melee is OP at the moment is down to one thing. Melee Combo Counter.

The no melee weapon is op without melee combo mods (and the perma stun which is basically a glitch).

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17 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always thought melee was supposed to feel more powerful to an extent. Guns are long range and you don't need to chase the enemy as much. That's the balance.

 

I think the idea was that to get close is the danger to melee. But as the game evolved alot of that danger disapeared. Now with the Parcore 2.0 you can close on an enemy in no time and keep hacking until they die.

It used to be ballanvced because along with the less speedy movement you also had stamina.

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18 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Melee Combo Counter.

why? right now all it does is make better heavy attacks. if you build around spamming a 2x heavy attack... well... good for ya, but that sure as hell is not the reason why melee kicks ass.

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7 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

why? right now all it does is make better heavy attacks. if you build around spamming a 2x heavy attack... well... good for ya, but that sure as hell is not the reason why melee kicks ass.

Hate.

Karyst.

Venka.

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23 minutes ago, chaotea said:

The reason melee is OP at the moment is down to one thing. Melee Combo Counter.

The no melee weapon is op without melee combo mods (and the perma stun which is basically a glitch).

It isnt the combo counter itself that makes it OP, it's the mods that interact with the MCC that makes melee OP, like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Just as the heavy attack builds turn OP due to mods (and focus) that allows for 90% combo efficiency. If those things were toned down there would be no problem with the melee combo counter.

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53 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always thought melee was supposed to feel more powerful to an extent. Guns are long range and you don't need to chase the enemy as much. That's the balance.

 

Yes but the thing is , melee is to good that using guns is pointless , hell your TTK will greatly increase if you favor gunplay over melee .

Edited by bad4youLT
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37 minutes ago, chaotea said:

The reason melee is OP at the moment is down to one thing. Melee Combo Counter.

The no melee weapon is op without melee combo mods (and the perma stun which is basically a glitch).

False, you can perform just fine without any combo mods. Condition overload and high status builds exploiting viral and slash are disgusting without red crits.

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21 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

why? right now all it does is make better heavy attacks. if you build around spamming a 2x heavy attack... well... good for ya, but that sure as hell is not the reason why melee kicks ass.

Its more like the mods that interact with the Melee Combo Counter. With Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, any melee becomes a 100% crit chance, 100% status chance machine.

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11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt the combo counter itself that makes it OP, it's the mods that interact with the MCC that makes melee OP, like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Just as the heavy attack builds turn OP due to mods (and focus) that allows for 90% combo efficiency. If those things were toned down there would be no problem with the melee combo counter.

Combo counter doesn't even do anything unless you have Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

When DE announced the melee changes where they would buff base melee damage by 3-4x, I was expecting our light attack damage to be divided by combo counter.

Instead of ramping up melee damage, melee damage is top loaded. Chaining in heavy attacks and guns was supposed to be the way to recover our melee damage.

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one half is the Base Damage having been dramatically increased, which helped a lot when not using most of the Melee Mods, but why would we be primarily balancing around empty Mod Slots.

and the other half is the benefits gained from the Hit Counter Mods, yes.

1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Chaining in heavy attacks and guns was supposed to be the way to recover our melee damage.

well, i am glad it did not go that way - because i have little interest in using Heavies, essentially ever. it's the Stances/Animations that get me to care about Melee.

Edited by taiiat
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Should the game be balanced towards solo players? A full squad?

How often should the player die, how weak should enemies be, what is the gameplay trade-off for using melee or for using primaries, or casting.

All the elementary questions, you ask yourself before you create your game, still haven't be answered.

If you are going to create gameplay, you kind of need an idea of what you want to do.

Just moving some numbers around in notepad won't change anything, they just move the problem. If they ruin melee now, people just switch to a frame or whatever gun they decided to hand powercreep over to for the next quarter.

But they dont' want to commit to the work. If you sit down with a baseline, they can be held accountable for everything in the whole game, that isn't performing.

So until then it's just "whatever shenanigans we are in the mood for".

 

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1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

When you have a blender of death that deals critical damage on every hit, gain attack speed and at some cases able to go hybrid, wrecking enemies even faster, why use primary or secondary?

Fun?

I have awesome melee weapons built to wreak havoc against my enemies.  I also have awesome guns that do the same.   I choose what to use depending on how I feel.  Melee being faster at clearing a mob than my akjagara's or dread or kuva quartakk doesn't stop me using them.   And I have some guns that are actually quicker than melee in some situations.   My sporelacer secondary for example clears many missions quicker than any of my melee weps.

Players, like you, really need to give up on this romanticised notion of "balance".   That ship sailed years ago and is unobtainable now.   Just accept that we are overpowered compared to the enemies and, not surprisingly, many many players really like that feeling of power.   If you don't and you'd rather feel challenged in every mission then you have the ability to build your weapons and your warframes accordingly to achieve that.

Let's be honest, nerfing melee will annoy far more players than it will ever make happy.   There are many games on the market all clamouring for a players time.   Annoy your playerbase and take away their favourite toys at your peril.  DE, I hope, are acutely aware of this and so will tread lightly.

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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always thought melee was supposed to feel more powerful to an extent. Guns are long range and you don't need to chase the enemy as much. That's the balance.

 

That would be a reasonable balance factor if weren't for the fact that a Warframe can cross a room and melee slam a target along with everything in a 5 meter radius in around about the same amount of time it takes to line up a headshot while also hitting harder than the gun. 

There is also very little danger to being in melee for 99% of enemies. And thats after they removed the melee hit stagger. 
Melee also doesn't need to reload. Has no recoil. With one or two Speed mods attached will hit 15+ times per second while also getting Stance and combo multpliers ...

Combos aren't even real combos. Its just smash E as fast possible. 

The AI is also so incredibly dumb that they make zero effort to get out of your way when you ARE coming to melee them nor will they punish you for being in melee despite all ranged enemies also having a melee attack. 

When your choice is:
- Do i dump half a clip into one mob 
OR
- Do i bullet jump to the target and blendermode the target and everything nearby the target

Its pretty obvious what the choice is, right?
Its rare that the most efficient choice ISNT just to melee. 

The closest thing we have to an enemy that is best taken out at range is a Nullifier and we know how much the community loves them. And even then, its just as easy if not easier, depending on your gun of course, to simply melee the bubble away regardless. 

Melee needs to be brought down a peg. Not nerfed into oblivion, just down to a level where Guns can actually catch up. 
If we leave them as they are, Guns will need +400% Crit and +1000% Damage mods to even start approaching what a melee can do. 

Heres a random crazy thought about the Condition Overload problem:
Change the damage bonus from a flat 120% per Status Effect to the weapons current Status chance. Example, if a weapon has 90% Status, each Status on the enemy increases damage by 90%. 
Got 10% Status? you get a 10% boost per status. 

Crit based melee stop gaining absurd multipliers they dont even have to mod for while making Status weapons able to match the crazy modifiers on crit weapons. 

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16 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Heres a random crazy thought about the Condition Overload problem:
Change the damage bonus from a flat 120% per Status Effect to the weapons current Status chance. Example, if a weapon has 90% Status, each Status on the enemy increases damage by 90%. 
Got 10% Status? you get a 10% boost per status. 

Condition overload really is just a small part of the problem. In reality, you could just use PPP and with blood rush/weeping wounds, you would still outperform nearly every primary or secondary. It's the scaling mods that are the problem.

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There's not much difference between the stats of guns and melee.

Sure there are exceptions on both sides ,

But melee has mods that raise those stats to much higher values. The base stats are acceotable the modded ones are OP.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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Things melee has that guns dont:

1) Combo(snipers can build combo but show me the 1 guy who plays combo sniper)

2) Stance mods. Just free extra polarity(How about making it so that anything in exilus gun slot gives you extra polarity? Bad idea? Then why tf is it on melee). If the goal is simply uniqueness in the playstyle, then make every single attack in the stance do the same thing as in every other stance. This makes a LOT of stances inferior/superior to others simply because of the forced procs or knockback issues due to the different move effects.

3) CO priming. Some people have enjoyed the str of nukor/epitaph priming into E melee spam. There is no gameplay flow disruption since you can press E while having a gun out and your melee will work. No such method for guns, you'd have to swap between them or go the other route and prime with your melee and shoot with your guns. The issue with this is what's the point of going in close with melee to prime CO, just so you can kill them with a sniper at point blank range? Also most guns outside of Cedo doesn't have Condition Overload type damage bonus.

4) Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. These are just problematic, easy scaling mods that work off of again, the combo stat, a stat that guns simply can't abuse.

As always, one of the main ways imo to deal with this is to simply make EVERYTHING overpowered. Then there's really no complaint cause you can play w/e you want. Some of the most fun I've had playing guns in this game was Pre-nerf Kuva Bramma. That gun made this game felt so FUN. It wasn't just me using it, anyone that had it no matter what MR felt like a godamn badass deleting everything in sight. Now imagine if EVERY SINGLE GUN CAN DO THAT. Imagine your Synoid Simulor having its moment, or that dusty ass Argonak you had back since MR 2 finally putting in some work. Yes I get there's a bit of power gap because the Kuva weapons are dropped from really strong grineers but buffing guns instead of nerfing melee is a different route that I think can work.

Rivens/dispo are NOT the answer. Rivens only make the points above even MORE glaring and op in WF's current state.

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6 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

There is also very little danger to being in melee for 99% of enemies

Thats an enemy problem, not melee problem.  Its caused by 99% of enemies being weak trash.   

 

9 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Melee needs to be brought down a peg. Not nerfed into oblivion, just down to a level where Guns can actually catch up. 
If we leave them as they are, Guns will need +400% Crit and +1000% Damage mods to even start approaching what a melee can do

So why not give guns mods to do that?  I mean, really, why not?   Stop trying to find balance in a game that is at a core, fundamental level, unbalanced.  Just bring guns up.  Its a double win, after all.   You don't piss off a large chunk of your player base by breaking their toys, and you make those players that either hate or want to ignore melee and use guns happy cos now they're on a par.

How does nerfing melee help guns?  Does it create choice?  Only superficially,  in the long run i fear it will actually reduce choice as players are funneled into fewer options to clear enemies fast cos let's be real, a single target weapon will not clear a mob of enemies as fast as an aoe (ie, melee) weapon can.   And why is fast clearing important?  Because of the repetitive grind de introduce with every single update going back years.   If I didn't sometimes have to run a mission 20, 50, 100 times to get the shiny, I'd quite happily take my time more, experiment more, slow down.   And then of course you have game modes that are absolutely built for aoe killing like survival and eso where single target guns will never keep up with the hoardes of enemies for any length of time, even with a 10x damage multiplier.  All you'll have achieved is a nerf to the one type of weapon that could keep up.

Just for the record, I fecking love my guns and have dozens I use regularly in all sorts of content.  I also love my melee weapons.   Nerfing half my arsenal in the naive hope of "balance" is not the way to get me to play more.   Creating content that requires a different approach, plays to the strengths of single target or ranged weapons, or just outright buffs my gun so it can now kill that lvl 400 bombard as fast as my melee, now, that would have me playing non stop.

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What many people forget is, that Warframe is not the game it was 5 years ago. It is evolving and right now, it is evolving towards power fantasy, a musou game with far better, more satisfying gameplay so to speak (most of the time when playing the warrior games it feels like you're hitting the enemies with a paper fan). I like being able to butcher through countless enemies feeling like a fricking Fate servant. And considering how successful the game got in the last few years a lot of people agree that this is the way to go.

And nerfing what's a little OP takes away from that feeling. Nerfing in PVE focused titles is often times kind of the ultima ratio. Especially because many players invest A LOT of resources into their favorite equipment. And I know from personal experience that seeing your favorite weapon being reduced to a shadow of its former self feels...unpleasant and may even drive away people.

No, I think they should keep melee as it is, buff the guns to a level where they compete and instead focus on difficult, more complex content to create challenges. Ever tried Eidolons on Steel Path? It's insane, despite all the oh so OP equipment that we have.

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2 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

Its more like the mods that interact with the Melee Combo Counter. With Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, any melee becomes a 100% crit chance, 100% status chance machine.

they did so before the rework, when the counter actually increased damage, snowballing all these things... and that was when melee was "bad". so... I don't see it.

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

one half is the Base Damage having been dramatically increased, which helped a lot when not using most of the Melee Mods, but why would we be primarily balancing around empty Mod Slots.

and the other half is the benefits gained from the Hit Counter Mods, yes.

well, i am glad it did not go that way - because i have little interest in using Heavies, essentially ever. it's the Stances/Animations that get me to care about Melee.

Except that one part while you're giving yourself Kookie Klicker Karpal Tunnel for that sick number jumble stack SS, I've cleared the room with three heavies and can comfortably progress without giving myself arthritis.

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37 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Stop trying to find balance in a game that is at a core, fundamental level, unbalanced.

Yeah you're right.

Let's just make every weapon instantly kill every enemy on a tileset, that's fun right?

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