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Melee being too strong may be caused by their overtuned stats


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2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Hate.

Karyst.

Venka.

that explains nothing (I mean I literally have no idea what interaction those could have with the combo counter that would make them OP), and it's 3 out of how many weapons?

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1 minute ago, Rawbeard said:

that explains nothing (I mean I literally have no idea what interaction those could have with the combo counter that would make them OP), and it's 3 out of how many weapons?

It explains everything If you understand WF's base damage progression and escalation theory and is directly why melee was given a damage ceiling.

Your second facet is utterly irrelevant in a game with planned and designed obsolescence and refresh, so your exegesis is either deliberately ignorant or you've just utterly missed missed acceltra/bramma wukong/mesa composing 95% of public games under MR 20 for "mystery" reasons.

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15 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Yeah you're right.

Let's just make every weapon instantly kill every enemy on a tileset, that's fun right?

The top 5 DPS frames do exactly that, 3 of them with one button press at the beginning of the map.

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3 hours ago, chaotea said:

The reason melee is OP at the moment is down to one thing. Melee Combo Counter.

56 minutes ago, XxFerdi420xX said:

Things melee has that guns dont:

1) Combo

2) Stance mods.

3) CO priming.

4) Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds.

Not using any of that (except 2/13 combo):

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I just think it's funny how the argument for universal vacuum is that Warframe is too fast paced to pick up orbs

While the argument for melee vs guns is that Warframe are super mobile and traversing the environment is too easy.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, chaotea said:

I think the idea was that to get close is the danger to melee. But as the game evolved alot of that danger disapeared. Now with the Parcore 2.0 you can close on an enemy in no time and keep hacking until they die.

It used to be ballanvced because along with the less speedy movement you also had stamina.

I agree. I remember when butchers could almost ohk you.  

Melee should require a bit more skill to survive at that range. I remember when it took a Valkyr invulnerability to go exclusively melee

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2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Yeah you're right.

Let's just make every weapon instantly kill every enemy on a tileset, that's fun right?

Yeah, you're right.

Let's nerf everything until every enemy is a bullet sponge, thats fun, right?

See, I can do that too.  However, this game will never be balanced, trying to make it so is doomed to failure at this point.   Some players need to realise that, and also realise that constantly crying for nerfs to powerful gear does not make the weak gear stronger.   Unless of course you have some magic solution that will bring balance to this wonderful mess of a game, in which case I'd love to hear it.

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2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

The top 5 DPS frames do exactly that, 3 of them with one button press at the beginning of the map.

You're gonna have to help me out, I'm maybe having a blonde ( or possibly brunette) moment here.

What 3 warframes instantly kill all the enemies on the tileset with one button press at the start of the map?   I honestly can't think which 3 frames these are.

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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I agree. I remember when butchers could almost ohk you.  

Melee should require a bit more skill to survive at that range. I remember when it took a Valkyr invulnerability to go exclusively melee

This highlights one of the fundamental issues with enemies. A lot of them are obsolete, designed for a game that no longer exists. 

The newer enemies DE designed are a mixed bag.

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

You're gonna have to help me out, I'm maybe having a blonde ( or possibly brunette) moment here.

What 3 warframes instantly kill all the enemies on the tileset with one button press at the start of the map?   I honestly can't think which 3 frames these are.

Octavia Gara Saryn

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Blaming the stats on melee weapons for the dominance of melee weapons on guns I think misses the mark: when our melee weapons stand out, it's rarely because the first hit is so much more devastating than that of our average gun, so that claim falls apart. Rather, the problem tends to appear in higher-level missions, where our guns start to take longer to kill enemies through sustained fire, yet our kill rate in melee remains pretty consistent due to the sheer amount of stacking going on: Condition Overload lets melee gain ridiculous damage multipliers through status, while Blood Rush uses the melee combo counter to layer on equally humongous crit chance bonuses. Both of these cause our melee damage to outscale our gun damage by miles, such that simply nerfing the stats on melee weapons would bring us back to Melee 2.0, when those same mods were used as band-aids against weak base weapons. Further proof of this is Exalted melee weapons, which are currently often considered trash precisely because they don't have access to Acolyte mods like Blood Rush.

Really, what we should likely be targeting here is the melee combo counter system: not only is it the main method melee weapons use to rack up bonkers damage increases, whether through Blood Rush or Corrupt Charge-based heavy attack spam builds (looking at you, Stropha), the very mechanics behind it are what push us to use melee to the exclusion of guns: even in a world where guns and melee are about equal, a balance state where the combo counter is important to melee is a state where one has to either commit to melee to make it work properly, or not bother with it at all (again, something that happened already in Melee 2.0). What we need is a weapons arsenal that either encourages us to swap weapons on the fly, or at the very least doesn't discourage us from doing so. The melee combo counter system does the latter, and so long as it exists in this kind of state, melee and guns will never coexist perfectly even in perfect balance. At this point, it may be better to ditch the melee combo counter entirely, along with stacking damage multiplier mods, and instead work to make the power of melee weapons as consistent as that of guns.

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1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

Octavia Gara Saryn

Very enemy level dependant really eh?   At the level you're talking about where one button press at the start of the map kills every enemy on the tileset, pretty much any weapon or frame is gonna cause carnage.  Not sure you're proving your point here. 

I'm well aware how powerful octavia is and she scales really well, although not my cup of tea personally, she'd be the most capable of pressing one button and being able to kill the map, as long as you had enough duration on your roller ball to get round the map in one go for all the enemies to shoot it.  Same for gara, although technically it would have to be more than just one key stroke. And saryn? Great frame, multiple ways of building her, true powerhouse that can also buff teammates, but she's only a nuke at relatively low levels. 

I mean, good luck going into a sortie with any of those three and thinking all you have to do is press one button at the start.  Although you'd probably do OK up to ceres on the normal star chart. 

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10 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Very enemy level dependant really eh?   At the level you're talking about where one button press at the start of the map kills every enemy on the tileset, pretty much any weapon or frame is gonna cause carnage.  Not sure you're proving your point here. 

I'm well aware how powerful octavia is and she scales really well, although not my cup of tea personally, she'd be the most capable of pressing one button and being able to kill the map, as long as you had enough duration on your roller ball to get round the map in one go for all the enemies to shoot it.  Same for gara, although technically it would have to be more than just one key stroke. And saryn? Great frame, multiple ways of building her, true powerhouse that can also buff teammates, but she's only a nuke at relatively low levels. 

I mean, good luck going into a sortie with any of those three and thinking all you have to do is press one button at the start.  Although you'd probably do OK up to ceres on the normal star chart. 

Not even kind of.

Whatever build you're using or claiming as baseline certainly isn't any kind of optimal or nuanced, because two of those frames scale far FAR past Steel Path and we haven't even mentioned Mesa, and moreover Octavia and Gara effectively scale infinitely until energy retention starts to become an active occurrence, much like Baruuk but without ramp up time or mindless button smashing gimmickry.

But you are aptly highlighting the problem, most of the complaints around melee rely on half assed play at low levels, including Quite Shallow. Primary Mods have been junk since day one. Period. Shotgun mods are slightly better and Secondary modding is essentially where you want to be in terms of utility and scale, and melee's terrible crime destroying WF insidiously from the inside is actually covering almost every base or protection mechanic the enemy possesses.

Again Quite Shallow is whining about overscale when the melee "revamp" actually again capped melee damage permanently, and now DE's solution to primaries sucking ass is to make everything else suck just as badly.

Not going to go over very well, not that DE cares about such things now that they have new cash influx sources.

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6 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Not even kind of.

Whatever build you're using or claiming as baseline certainly isn't any kind of optimal or nuanced, because two of those frames scale far FAR past Steel Path and we haven't even mentioned Mesa, and moreover Octavia and Gara effectively scale infinitely until energy retention starts to become an active occurrence, much like Baruuk but without ramp up time or mindless button smashing gimmickry.

But you are aptly highlighting the problem, most of the complaints around melee rely on half assed play at low levels, including Quite Shallow. Primary Mods have been junk since day one. Period. Shotgun mods are slightly better and Secondary modding is essentially where you want to be in terms of utility and scale, and melee's terrible crime destroying WF insidiously from the inside is actually covering almost every base or protection mechanic the enemy possesses.

Again Quite Shallow is whining about overscale when the melee "revamp" actually again capped melee damage permanently, and now DE's solution to primaries sucking ass is to make everything else suck just as badly.

Not going to go over very well, not that DE cares about such things now that they have new cash influx sources.

You missed the point I was trying (obviously too cryptically) to make.  That is, one button press at the start of the mission ain't gonna kill everything on the map.  

There's no need to concern yourself with the efficacy of my builds, they're all rather good (if I may blow my own trumpet a tad), and I'm aware of how well many frames scale.  I've had gara doing millions of damage, done multi hour survivals with octavia, bored myself to sleep *@##$slapping everything with baruuk etc etc. Assuming I don't have any nuance to my builds or understand how well certain things scale is a tad presumptuous on your part, not a good look really. 

However, I do agree with you about Quite Shallow (and other "content" creators who jumped on the "melee bad" bandwagon in order to farm views on yt).  And it sounds from the latter half of your post as if we may actually be in agreement, at least partly.  My view is melee doesn't need nerfed and doing so won't suddenly make guns more powerful. Guns need brought up to challenge melee.

Ah, but power creep I hear you say! To which I say piffle. This game lost any and all sense of balance quite some time ago. We should embrace the madness it has become as it isn't going to get any better.  Wreak havoc on our enemies and be the gods of war we dream of.  Or not.  After all, it is up to the player how they build their gear and it is a simple matter to create a build that will provide challenge rather than the mass genocide most players seem to prefer. 

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6 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Except that one part while you're giving yourself Kookie Klicker Karpal Tunnel for that sick number jumble stack SS, I've cleared the room with three heavies and can comfortably progress without giving myself arthritis.

and i beybladed through the Room and cleared it faster than that, too.

yes, our Stats are high enough to ignore some of the things in the game.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

That is, one button press at the start of the mission ain't gonna kill everything on the map.  

Except that is exactly what happens with wandering damage frames. Literally built into the design. You defenestrating your own argument with ignorance is the actual point.

There's very little wrong with melee, there is a great deal wrong with primaries. Ember received the nerf she did for the reason you claim [ancient aliens] can't possibly exist and is utter hyperbole[/ancient aliens], and if you were using the builds you're mentioning, you wouldn't keep it bringing it up as some kind of counterpoint that's entirely tangential to begin with.

Your attempt at sarcasm being factually accurate is entirely aside.

Edited by -Kittens-
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3 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Except that is exactly what happens with wandering damage frames. Literally built into the design. You defenestrating your own argument with ignorance is the actual point.

There's very little wrong with melee, there is a great deal wrong with primaries. Ember received the nerf she did for the reason you claim [ancient aliens] can't possibly exist and is utter hyperbole[/ancient aliens], and if you were using the builds you're mentioning, you wouldn't keep it bringing it up as some kind of counterpoint that's entirely tangential to begin with.

I'm sorry, but I have to admit, you've lost me.

I'm not sure where these ancient aliens you speak of suddenly appeared from, but having double checked my previous posts, they weren't mentioned by me.   I would agree with the first sentence of your second paragraph, however the rest appears, to put it kindly, to be gobble-de-gook. 

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Melee hits many mutliple targets at once, like an AoE weapon. Melee attack speed is very high so many hits per second increasing the odds of crit. Blood rush sends melee damage into the stratosphere by making the crit chance about 700%+ coupled with high crit multipliers and that AoE dmg...

Not that hard to understand really.

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Melee is more powerful than gun because

  1. stance - forced proc, especially slash proc (eg heavy attack scythe)
  2. combo counter - damage
  3. blood rush / weeping wound - massive synergy with combo counter, unlimited crit and stat chance
  4. CO - with 2 and 3, more damage.
  5. No need to reload, no need to find ammo.
  6. Can hit multiple enemies without any mod (vs punch through in gun)

If gun is to compete with melee, gun needs to find a way to do something similar to 1 - 4, or find its own niche that supplement or synergize with the above (very difficult), or buff the damage so ridiculously high that overwrite all of the above. Otherwise, the best guns in the game will always be redeemer prime and stropha.

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4 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

If gun is to compete with melee

In a game about space ninjas, the more salient question is why guns need to compete with melee at all.

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

however the rest appears

Maybe next time don't spout out "just get headshots bro" in a topic about weapon caliber.

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Let's nerf melee weapons
Then let's nerf warframes
Then let's nerf primaries
Then let's nerf secondary

Now everyone must use shotguns
Happy now?

Exterminate mission with kill 149 enemies will take 40 shots to kill on trash enemy, so much fun staring at the screen while you hold your fire button and wait that he dies, repeat that 149 times

Atm with melee it takes around 4-5 min that's too op, some people want to enjoy it so it should take like 14-15min, that's what you should get for optimal build and weapons. And longer mission types will take 26-30min...


Jokes aside don't you guys see that game considering melee is in a very good spot (fluid gameplay, many different weapons viable, acceptable mission length, different viable builds, only 3 forma needed)
There is no negative, except for people who are "I do damage that is unacceptable nerf melee please cry cry"

BTW fact is when your gun is at par with melee you will always use the (aoe) gun (its faster) meaning melee has to be always stronger than guns otherwise guns utility (range) will always beat melee weapons on the same level

Problem with guns atm, 8 formats, at full build still feels like a wet noodle, reload interruptions,at times ammunition problems, enemies AI (forever hiding, random movement)

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3 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Maybe next time don't spout out "just get headshots bro" in a topic about weapon caliber

If you look back at my posts, you'll see I never said anything remotely like that so what the heck are you on about? 

In your haste to talk down to people you seem to have got confused. 

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16 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

why? right now all it does is make better heavy attacks. if you build around spamming a 2x heavy attack... well... good for ya, but that sure as hell is not the reason why melee kicks ass.

Not sure you're fully aware of all the mods that take advantage of the combo counter. Blood rush and Weeping wounds have become a massive part of why melee is so prevalant right now.

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15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt the combo counter itself that makes it OP, it's the mods that interact with the MCC that makes melee OP, like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds. Just as the heavy attack builds turn OP due to mods (and focus) that allows for 90% combo efficiency. If those things were toned down there would be no problem with the melee combo counter.

Yes, i didnt mean 'just the ticking up numbers' but everything about the melee combo counter system. The problem is that the combo system revitalised a stagnent melee system. Nerfing it would just undo the work that was made to make it better. Primary and secondary needs a similar functionality update to bring it in line is all.

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