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Melee being too strong may be caused by their overtuned stats


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15 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

False, you can perform just fine without any combo mods. Condition overload and high status builds exploiting viral and slash are disgusting without red crits.

False, such builds with condition overload rarly reach such heights without combo mods like weeping wounds. Sure such builds can be useful, but they rarely meet the same level as slash scaled dramatically off damage.

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12 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I agree. I remember when butchers could almost ohk you.  

Melee should require a bit more skill to survive at that range. I remember when it took a Valkyr invulnerability to go exclusively melee

Yea, the issue is really not that melee has become over powered. Just that melee has evolved, but so have alot of systems that melee interacts with. Ranged weapons dont really benifit from these updates as much.

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ideally, melee should be risk vs reward: the risk is charging headlong into something trying to kill you and potentially getting hit, the reward is being able to kill efficiently without using ammo.

I think people would be less inclined to Melee spam if enemies were more of a threat, with Elite enemies that can block and perform a counter-attack when struck, or need to have their defenses broken with a slide attack before you can start going HAM on them. obviously there would still be plenty of cannon fodder enemies with no defense to melee, but Guardsmen/Prosecutors, Flame blades, Manics, John Prodman etc, should be more like fighting someone with genuine martial arts experience. Tenno were trained to have insane reflexes and movement with melee weapons, but in all my years of playing, I've rarely encountered a melee fight where simply swinging wildly left and right wouldn't work just as well. less flashy of course, and we look cool with out crazy animations, but why have that level of skill when we're not fighting opponents who are equally agile?

when I did the Junctions on Steel Path, It actually felt kind of epic: the AI is still limited, but occasionally I got glimpses of their faster movements and weapon switching, and I was forced to use tactics I wouldn't normally use, like constantly repositioning between bursts of fire instead of standing there and tanking it. and to this day I still think it'd be cool if sometimes we run into a room and there are no enemies.. just one miniboss with a ton of speed who's about to make you actually put in some work for a mission completion. Acolytes in Steel Path *almost* do this really well, but they are still much more about sponging your bullets than actually trying to flank you and make you have to consider using parkour moves actively to avoid getting hit by hard attacks.

I suppose what I'm asking for is something akin to the Marauders in DOOM: Eternal (but not requiring a fine degree of timing like they do.). of course there is also the issue of people being able to CC spam them as well, so they would probably need to be less affected by powers, or outright immune, and we've already got a lot of that going around, so people might not be up for it.

TL:DR: I'd love elite enemies/minibosses to appear in missions where if you want to melee them, you actually have to think before rushing in, but then of course people will CC spam them, so the Melee issue ties into the CC spam issue because no melee system can be made even slightly challenging as long as we can lock down a room for 30 seconds straight over and over again. 

 

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3 hours ago, chaotea said:

Yes, i didnt mean 'just the ticking up numbers' but everything about the melee combo counter system. The problem is that the combo system revitalised a stagnent melee system. Nerfing it would just undo the work that was made to make it better. Primary and secondary needs a similar functionality update to bring it in line is all.

What they could easily do to actually get a synergized system in order is very very very simple.

1. Reduce impact of WW, BR and other combo-stack related mods.

2. Bring back the combo counter damage buff.

3. Apply that combo counter damage buff to... ranged weapons!

There, now we have a system that promotes melee and gunplay together. WW and BR wont make melee so over the top, but you now have a passive increase to ranged weapons aswell. They could even add ranged version of WW and BR at that point.

In addition to this they could add mods for ranged weapon that simply improve your ranged damage the less combo you have, so for people that enjoy full ranged could make use of those instead, kinda like heavy attack mods on melee weapons. It could be mods that increase damage by a good portion while also possibly removing the combo counter, or only allows the combo counter to work for heavy melee or melee mods, reverting it to how it works now more or less. The mods wouldnt give as much benefit as a full combo counter would, but it would be an option if you dont care much for melee+ranged synergy.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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37 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

2. Bring back the combo counter damage buff.

3. Apply that combo counter damage buff to... ranged weapons!

For the love of god no.

The combo counter is the root of all the woes of weapon balancing, it will just promote more and more of the same old "insert all combo mods>grofit" builds on everything and will only cause already strong weapons to eclipse weaker ones even further.

We need less obtuse scaling multipliers on everything, not the same obtuse scaling on everything.

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4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

For the love of god no.

The combo counter is the root of all the woes of weapon balancing, it will just promote more and more of the same old "insert all combo mods>grofit" builds on everything and will only cause already strong weapons to eclipse weaker ones even further.

We need less obtuse scaling multipliers on everything, not the same obtuse scaling on everything.

The root is in the mods. And I'm not saying the combo counter damage buff should apply to melee. It should apply to ranged weapons only in order to give synergy between the two and promote using both together. Hence why WW, BR and other combo related mods should also get nerfed, a point you for some odd reason left out.

 

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9 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

In a game about space ninjas, the more salient question is why guns need to compete with melee at all.

Perhaps because Tenno are described as "Masters of gun and blade", so it kinda follows that both would be equally useful.

Also, if you think ninjas only used melee weapons you really need to do more research.

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7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The root is in the mods. And I'm not saying the combo counter damage buff should apply to melee. It should apply to ranged weapons only in order to give synergy between the two and promote using both together. Hence why WW, BR and other combo related mods should also get nerfed, a point you for some odd reason left out.

Even with the mods nerfed (sorry about not quoting that by the way, I just woke up and kind of missed it when I was highlighting) the problem is that the combo system ramp up has the same problem as anything that scales with a percentage, it only matters for things that can take advantage of percentage based scaling.

It wouldn't encourage synergy between the two, it would make melee a requirement for making ranged weapons deal more damage, and even somebody like me who does use both can see that forcing the two to integrate for the sake of power is a bad idea.

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3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Even with the mods nerfed (sorry about not quoting that by the way, I just woke up and kind of missed it when I was highlighting) the problem is that the combo system ramp up has the same problem as anything that scales with a percentage, it only matters for things that can take advantage of percentage based scaling.

It wouldn't encourage synergy between the two, it would make melee a requirement for making ranged weapons deal more damage, and even somebody like me who does use both can see that forcing the two to integrate for the sake of power is a bad idea.

That is why they would also implement mods that remove the interaction with the counter but give an avarage buff instead for ranged. They already seem to be thinking about the no-melee ranged option given what has been heard. But in the current state it wont help much, melee will still be the best option unless they completely nerf it to the ground. Forcing a sync between the two for best output would solve it, while making full melee or full ranged focus viable but maybe not optimal. And isnt that really what they want to achieve, balance and usage between the two in general? If not, why even bother to buff ranged if it is going to be outperformed out-used by melee eitherway?

So far their whole idea of centering the ranged buffs around mods just wont work. Ranged still wont have the benefit of stances with innate bonuses etc. Reloading, mostly single target and so on are also problems with ranged that modding wont really solve. We will probably end up with the same few AoE/chain weapons and primers being used and performing slightly better than now. The single target guns, which are the majority, will still be completely pointless and no mods will change that. If those single target guns could feed on the combo system you'd have great single target options in the loadout. Clear crowds with melee to fuel the full auto assault rifles (or snipers/shotguns/etc) so you can use them to take down heavy single targets effectively.

I'd be very surprised if DE's planned changes actually change anything.

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14 hours ago, chaotea said:

False, such builds with condition overload rarly reach such heights without combo mods like weeping wounds. Sure such builds can be useful, but they rarely meet the same level as slash scaled dramatically off damage.

They are sufficient for steel path and sizeable endurance runs, which was my entire point. When melee was buffed across the board, the combo mods were given to use as an almost godlike power with no real place to use it.

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